Handling geckos

[TylerDurden]

wow this debate got heated lol

Well I'll try not to fan the flames but as M_surinamensis mentioned, reptiles do not have the brain structures required for operant conditioning. They lack the structures for pretty much any sort of higher processing beyond the instinctual.

Mammalian brains are very different from a reptile because they have evolved what some refer to as a "higher" brain, which really just means they evolved cortex which can process far more complex things.

That being said though, finding food is an instinctual behavior, as is finding warmth. Reptiles may gravitate towards your hands because you are associated with food and they are warm.

They wouldn't enjoy being handled, if you're referring to the human definition of the word as reptiles lack the ability to enjoy anything. They don't have pleasure centers as even mice would (mice are far more advanced as they have evolved a mammalian brain, they can be conditioned, and experience pleasure which is why a lot of research on drug addiction is done on mice. Mice will actively seek out pleasure, reptiles will not).

The closest thing reptiles have to enjoyment is a stimulus which satisfies a basic need. So the warmth of your hand + food, sure that satisfies basic needs they would instinctively seek out. They aren't going to display or experience an EMOTION of enjoyment, but I could see where one could also argue this wouldn't create additional stress as they are receiving stimuli they would instinctively seek out.

So basically: reptiles don't have the capacity for operant conditioning, they can't learn reward and punishment. They CAN learn where food is, and they CAN learn where warmth is, that is an instinctive behavior. It is possible reptiles could learn YOU bring the food and YOU are warm, and therefore they will run to your hand when you put it down some times. But they are not going to be experiencing an emotion of enjoyment from any sort of human interaction. However that doesn't indicate they would definitely experience stress, as food and warmth would not necessarily bring them stress, and if a reptile runs to your hands to go in them (without you actively picking it up), one could infer that the interaction is not inducing stress, since reptiles instinctively AVOID stress.

I personally don't plan on handling my gecko more than once a week or so to make sure they're all right, and maybe to take them out so I can safely clean their tank. I don't know what kind of stress handling induces, but there are many variables and without a definitive study on the subject I don't think anyone really knows that since it could go either way, but I do know that reptiles lack an adaptive immune system (the later evolved component of the immune system which involves humoral aka antibody mediated immunity). There are many pathogens humans carry on them which reptiles would not normally be exposed to in the wild, and would not have evolved mechanisms to fight off. A simple bacterial or viral exposure that would not even elicit a significant immune response in a human could kill a reptile because they couldn't fight it at all, which is reason enough for me personally to avoid too much contact. I'm happy just watching them in their own environment.

I agree with those saying "appreciate them for what they are".

On a side note: Decades of research have demonstrated that the only animals that can actually interpret or extract human emotion are in fact dogs

 

[Owens]

I have to agree with the people that say it depends on the animal. My bold stripe loves to come out and sit on my shoulder (he crawls up there on his own) while I clean his tank. One of my tangs on the other hand hates being touched so I let her be

 

[nater]

I generally agree with M_surinamensis. I deviate slightly from his position as I have a belief that most reptiles have a very limited capacity for learning beyond instinct. But then again, I realize that my belief is just that: a personal belief with little to no scientific basis. Unlike some others I'm not trying to elevate my personal belief to the level of incontrovertible fact. I also realize that my anecdotal evidence doesn't rise above being anecdotal. I realize that while I believe certain things, I'm almost certainly wrong in that belief where it conflicts with scientific evidence.

That said, I still don't see a reptile enjoying human contact as some sort of desire for inter-species companionship. Heat, height, association with food? Sure, but not "let's be friends forever". In line with my personal belief on the subject I do try to handle my reptiles regularly so they don't see me as a threat, to prevent stressing them when handling is necessary.

 

[liamandnorma]

Well this is a tricky one indeed. I am still very new to owning a Leopard Gecko but I feel the need to express my experience so far after a month or so.

Norma Jennings as she's called has been everything that people seem to look for in a Leopard Gecko given all my research. She was about 4 months old when I got her and she has been smashing down as much food as will fit in her greedy face since day 1 (10 large mealworms yesterday). I have, and intend to continue to treat her with as much respect as an ape possibly can. It's a funny debate really and I have ended up agreeing with several people on here. I think Tyler above is the most correct in his facts, I can't see how they would 'enjoy' being handled past fulfilling some basic needs. That said, I genuinely believe that Norma does not see me as a threat. There has been 1 or 2 instances where the wavy tail appeared and immediately she was put back in her viv and left alone, but every other time she exhibits no behaviour that suggests she is stressed.

When I do handle her she doesn't even 'just sit on my hand' which some indicate could be a kind of sign of fear but she walks around, licking, tasting her surroundings and gently claws all over the place. Yesterday she ended up basking on my belly because it was warm. It seems ridiculous to suppose that they would bask on the belly of a predator. As said by many in this thread these are just instinctive, exploratory, heat seeking behaviours but that is all I expect from her, and it fills me with fascination and awe, which is why I decided I wanted a pet gecko in the first place. Their beauty is in their simplicity, and the fact that I will never be her 'friend' doesn't make me any less enthralled by just observing her going about her business.

That's my take on the whole thing. Like I say I'm still new to this, and if she begins to show behaviour that suggests she is not comfortable with exploring me, or the stairs, or the carpet then like I say, I intend to treat her with respect and will do everything I can to make her feel at ease.

 

[hotrodjunkie]

Just posted to another thread: Fritz likes being out of his tank, likes to roam the sofa and crawl up me, or curl up in my elbow for some warm nap time, or sit on my belly and watch the tv (or so it seems).

and I'll add that I do believe he likes to be held- perhaps because I'm so warm-blooded or perhaps he actually likes me. When I got him in August, he was a year old and was not handled. He was a gift for my son's cousin who was too busy to deal with a gecko, then given to my son (11) who has 4 leos but was afraid of Fritz after being nipped once, and since they already have a male they asked me to take this one.

So just since August he seems to have come to WANT to be held. His tank is just a few feet away from me in the living room, and he will stare at me through the glass or stand up against the glass with a look, when I go over he looks up, even reaches up with one arm, and reaches for me when I put my arm in the tank, crawls up on my arm, and has 'that look' of what I take to be real affection in his eyes- which I KNOW sounds crazy for a reptile but I suspect some others know what I'm talking about even if most think it's hogwash. It's not just to get out of the tank because he will sofa hunt some and then come back to crawl up my shirt and find a warm spot to plunk down flat-bellied. I think he'd crawl to the top of my head if I let him. So yeah, I really do think my Fritz likes being held. And watching TV. (hey, the cat is a TV-holic, so I think a lizard can enjoy it casually!)

 

[Dimidiata]

^ human heating pas/jungle gym

 

[artes]

My bearded dragons watch TV! Their tank is in front of the TV (other side of the room), and whenever my husband stands up in front of the TV, they'll lean around to see the TV.

..Sorry. A bit off topic. I was just replying to the guy above who said his leo watches TV.

 

[solomonslayer]

I know that Charmeleon tends to have mood swings where he'll want to be held and he'll sit on top of his hide waiting for me to pick him up and other days he'll run and hide from my hand so I think it's a mix of both personality and instinct.

 

[hotrodjunkie]

just read Tyler's post above, interesting and makes sense, but I can't help but question the study of brains in different species. We don't fully understand our own brain, how do researchers come to say with any absolution how the brain of another species functions? Is it based on the human brain as a model? How was it decided that reptiles have no pleasure centers and therefore no pleasure? Unless a reptile itself said so, I don't believe it with any absolution. Nor do I believe cats can only see black & white, or only dogs sense emotion, or other things I've heard over the years. We can't know it all, and perhaps the reptile experiences something different from our human understanding of pleasure in a different way and therefore the reptile brain processes differently. It does make sense my Leo comes to me for warmth- but it's about the same temp in his warm hide- but he is choosing to climb onto me if I'm available. Sure I'm associated with food- but he has a buffet of worms 24/7, why come to me? I think there could be something else to it.

 

[Dimidiata]

Oh yeah, ^ human exploration, major intrest to the leos.

 

[artes]

Actually Tyler, pigs, dolphins, and all kinds of monkeys are capable of human emotion and responses as well as dogs. My cats can also tell what mood I am in and respond to me. When I'm depressed, they are much more cuddley, when I'm sick Finn licks my forehead, etc. etc.

Sometimes, my hands are cold. The leo geckos of mine who enjoy handling still will happily climb up on my hand. Geckos learn who their caretakers are, and they learn to enjoy attention from them, and I think even learn to develop a type of love for us. Maybe not to the extent a cat or a dog would, but they learn to love in their own way.

If it was all instinctual, then why would a gecko (or any other lizard for that matter) take naps in their caretakers laps? They would assume that we were not safe places to take a snooze I would think.

I think until geckos speak to us, this will always be a debate though.

 

[Desdemona]

Though it would not really answer the "do they like it," question, it would be interesting to experiment to see if there is a life expectancy difference between handled and not handled. If good autopsies where done you might be able to answer rather or not its stressful to them. Of course this would be assuming stress kills them slowly like it seems to do with some other species. You would need a lot of animals and a lot of variable control to get a good outcome.

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk

 

[PaladinGirl]

:-O

What?! Geckos don't enjoy being handled? That just isn't true! Just look at this pic of Toon watching my boyfriend play Grand Theft Auto. Clearly she is enjoying herself! LOL!

Just trying to lighten the mood a little. I love my geckos. I do indeed handle Toon briefly every day or every other day. Do she enjoy it? Science usually says probably not. Some people will still disagree no matter what the evidence suggests (anthropomorphizing?). What do I think? I just try to enjoy my geckos and not think about it too much. I usually only hold Toon because she is the only one that spontaneously crawls onto my hand and up my arm. Epic, on the other hand, I only visually admire because she is evil. :main_laugh: Overall I mostly enjoy just looking at them and providing them with the best care I possibly can.

It's always interesting to read posts dealing with this topic. Some people post very descriptive and eloquent things!

 

[cook75]

Enjoy= NO. Learn to deal with it= Most
A way to escape their small limited world= Possibly
Some humans anthropomorphizing= YES

Just what I have observed. Geckos in small cages have a tendency to want to escape. You will put your arm in and yes they will walk on it as a way out. Give them very large enclosures with open front doors. Leave them open and the results were:

They had no desire to leave their enclosures. I tried to get them to come out and they pulled back right into their homes.

 

[grboxa]

What?! Geckos don't enjoy being handled? That just isn't true! Just look at this pic of Toon watching my boyfriend play Grand Theft Auto. Clearly she is enjoying herself! LOL!

Just trying to lighten the mood a little. I love my geckos. I do indeed handle Toon briefly every day or every other day. Do she enjoy it? Science usually says probably not. Some people will still disagree no matter what the evidence suggests (anthropomorphizing?). What do I think? I just try to enjoy my geckos and not think about it too much. I usually only hold Toon because she is the only one that spontaneously crawls onto my hand and up my arm. Epic, on the other hand, I only visually admire because she is evil. :main_laugh: Overall I mostly enjoy just looking at them and providing them with the best care I possibly can.

It's always interesting to read posts dealing with this topic. Some people post very descriptive and eloquent things!

I bet your bf cant wait until grand theft auto 5!!!!:main_laugh:...both my leos tolerate taking them out before inspection after a shed to make sure it went okay(which is basically what I cut it down to) so I'm happy about that. I let them roam around my bed for a bit for some 'excercise' when I do take them out though. It's funny to see some leos being able to just lay still on shoulders and what not, mine can never sit still especially my female.

 

[SamsonizeMe]

Disclaimer: This is not an attack. It is a solicitation of opinions.

For those who claim that reptiles cannot learn new behaviors at all, I would like to get your thoughts on this 33 second video (and if you can spare the time, watch this poster's other videos with this iguana as well, where he repeats the behavior).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8uRHCBj2tk&feature=related

The video speaks for itself. Iguanas in the wild would not run to a human that called to them. This lizard displays a learned behavior, and considerable intent to haul ass over to his owner, who may or may not be offering a treat.

 

[hotrodjunkie]

HAHA!! BUDDY COMES FASTER THEN MY CAT WHEN I'M OFFERING HER OVEN-ROASTED CHICKEN!!

 

[Dimidiata]

so he has assosiated the sound with food. Cute. its a ability to assosiate one thing with another and react to it, he could use the same process to associate a bell with food, a car engine with food and such. Indeed a nice trick, certainly animals can learn to do new things with the proper influence(meaning i agree with you), On a side note, Jeez he must like food, that was fast. CAME FLYING. I thought this was a vid of a dog at first lol.

 

[SamsonizeMe]

Of course! In no way am I agreeing with the video's author that Buddy actually KNOWS his assigned name is "Buddy". He does display a learned behavior though:

If that noise = I get a treat, then I come tearing across the yard for it.

This is operant conditioning in action. Basic? Absolutely.

That same behavior would not be displayed by an otherwise identical new animal that had never been exposed to this method of stimulus > reward.

 

[artes]

I disagree - I don't think geckos necessarily know their names, but I have tested this many times, in many different ways, and its always the same ending. My bearded dragon Travis 1000% knows his name. Whether there's food, hugs, pets, or nothing involved. You can say his name from the other side of the room, glance over, and he's looked up.

If a bearded dragon can learn its name, surely an iguana, who has a larger brain, can.