Handling geckos

[Desdemona]

If you really pay attention to your pets you should be able to tell if it feels fear or not. How it acts when you put it down will probably be a bigger tell than wen your holding it. Does it bolt or does it just relax?

To assume that all reptiles will always have the same response would be having more faith in our knowledge than I am will to give. As a whole they will follow some rules, but like all rules.. there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Positive and negative reinforcement can create attachment to the stimulus that was bringing the reinforcement. A new hatching is not going to want to be handled but enough years of handling always bringing good reinforcement, they will see it as a good thing. If you just pick it up to clean a cage (not a good reinforcement, in their eyes you might be damaging their home/environment) then its not going to like being handled and give you a fear response.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Positive and negative reinforcement can create attachment to the stimulus that was bringing the reinforcement.

No.

You're introducing the idea of operant conditioning, which involves the connection between something concrete and something abstract in order to provoke behavioral changes. That does not work with reptiles. They lack the physical structures in the brain necessary to conceptualize disconnected events.

The closest that it can come is the connection between a concrete stimulus and a pre-existing instinctive behavior that is already manifesting. Declarative thought is almost nonexistant, with very few exceptions (mostly among chelonians); it's all procedural, mandated by genetic propensities and then modified by deviations in the current stimuli. Instinctive does mean there's an inherent predictability, but it doesn't necessarily translate to a lack of complex behaviors, the exact manifestation of action is as complex as the conditions that provoked it.

They do not learn. They do not trust. They do not love. They are not smart by any human definition of the word.

It's a shame that some people seem incapable of appreciating them both for what they are and what they are not. It's a disservice to the animal to have an owner that refuses to acknowledge the truth, instead substituting an anthropomorphic fiction where their leopard gecko can be trained like a puppy. You want a dog, just buy a dog, no need to lie to yourself and create stress and risk by insisting your lizard is exactly the same.

 

[Dimidiata]

............................wow, well i was going to just provide slight argument and a link but this about sums it up.......

 

[Dragonfly_Dust]

I know my gecko doesn't like being held in my hands at least from kinds of noises he makes. Prefers being on my shoulders more then anything. Still teaching him how to tolerate hands...

 

[Desdemona]

Well, my answer was simplifed so I guess I have to expect a response as such. I just don't like to over simplify animals unless they prove to have serious lack of brain power.. ie fish or my Bearded Dragon (who seems dumber than most).

Constant breeding in a non-nature driven enviroment is going to create amnormalities in their brains. I never said that they were trainable in the same was as a dog. But, you are going to be able to effect their reactions to stimilus to some extent, especially since you could possibly have the same animal for 20 years. If you leave it alone so that it can act wild then it will.

It's complicated since there are many factors involved. Socialbilty would probably be the largest factor. If someone was to purposly breed Leos for human socialbility then we could end up with some (probably in a lot of generations from what I have found on Leo genes) Leos who are more "dog" like, though of course they would never act like dogs.

The more we study animals the more we find that many species are smarter than we previously thought. Here is a list of reptile experiments in which various forms of conditioning were used on reptiles and modifications made to their behavior:

http://reptilebehavior.com/bibliography.htm

 

[thinlizzy]

Just going by what I see.

Good evening,

That's a good attitude but what about the blind man/woman?

Insight and thought, I believe, is a dying breed, almost to extinction. Though, the vast majority will try and say otherwise whilst they're texting someone else. I meet new people everyday and during half a handshake they are texting someone else. Humans have zero focus now. Didn't use to be that way. Luckily, cellphones and text messaging wasn't around when I grew up. If it had...then this post and mankind wouldn't be here.

De-evolution is the above explanation/equation. Reptiles will rule again..sooner than you might think.

:main_yes:

Thanks for listening...reading...thinking.

Be well

 

[reps4life]

No.

You're introducing the idea of operant conditioning, which involves the connection between something concrete and something abstract in order to provoke behavioral changes. That does not work with reptiles. They lack the physical structures in the brain necessary to conceptualize disconnected events.

The closest that it can come is the connection between a concrete stimulus and a pre-existing instinctive behavior that is already manifesting. Declarative thought is almost nonexistant, with very few exceptions (mostly among chelonians); it's all procedural, mandated by genetic propensities and then modified by deviations in the current stimuli. Instinctive does mean there's an inherent predictability, but it doesn't necessarily translate to a lack of complex behaviors, the exact manifestation of action is as complex as the conditions that provoked it.

They do not learn. They do not trust. They do not love. They are not smart by any human definition of the word.

It's a shame that some people seem incapable of appreciating them both for what they are and what they are not. It's a disservice to the animal to have an owner that refuses to acknowledge the truth, instead substituting an anthropomorphic fiction where their leopard gecko can be trained like a puppy. You want a dog, just buy a dog, no need to lie to yourself and create stress and risk by insisting your lizard is exactly the same.

I knew it was just a matter of time before you blew up and said it. I did not want to be the one. I only take my reptiles out twice a week to examine them and put them right back in. I appreciate them for what they are and enjoy watching them in their own little world, without causing stress or inducing illness.

 

[thinlizzy]

All things aren't Created Equal

You want a dog, just buy a dog, no need to lie to yourself and create stress and risk by insisting your lizard is exactly the same.

Interesting that you think every dog or reptile thinks like you do. I think that's a broad assumption leading to robotic conclusion.

Hopefully, with your vast knowledge, you'll someday learn that there are exceptions to EVERY rule.

Be well

 

[thinlizzy]

I've got some d'alberts I'd love to introduce you to,

Great! What's stopping you?

I can get you some 12ft gators and a pygmy rattler. Maybe a mountain lion and a black bear to boost. Oh i know, a wolf fish.

Even better! Man...humans...I can smell the fear. Doubt is what any animal detests. Remember one thing; the king of the forest survives by wit...not brawn. Also, remember another...man is the only animal that kills from large distances because he's a coward.

Have you ever been to the Serengeti?

:main_laugh:

 

[contracteryin]

Quite a misnomer then. Also, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the single most ominous name I have ever seen anyone give their pet.* No matter which source material inspired it. That is genuinely something special.

*including a bunch of tree frogs named after Lovecraft's elder gods.

Ah ha, so I assume you like his name? I gave him that name because it fits them pretty well. For like the first few weeks my hand was his favorite chew toy till he got more use to seeing it. Though a few other people seem to think its an interesting and odd name as well. The next gecko I get (whenever that may be) If it's a male I'm going to name it Cthulhu.

 

[thinlizzy]

I guess we will never know but, have you ever thought it might be due to your body heat? Leave a cage open, sit a few feet away, I doubt the reptile will come sit in your hand. When you pull a reptile out of it's cage it has only 2 choices. Try to flee in fear or stay numb in fear and pray not to be eaten. It could also be they associate your scent with food. Just going by what I see.

Great points!

but unless you've lived with a reptile for almost thirty years then I reckon my posts will be laughed upon.

Sad because lack of experience surely isn't the best teacher. What's the longest period that you've housed a reptile? Just curious and thanks for your reply.

Take care

 

[M_surinamensis]

Contracteryin, I definitely like the name. It is an excellent name.

Thinlizzy, I don't know if this is an ESL or a dyslexia thing or what, but you seem to have completely misunderstood everything everyone else has said in this thread. I think, I can barely decipher some of your responses. Whatever is happening here, it's not communication. Slow down, maybe try re-reading before hitting submit, read it out loud if you have to and make sure each sentence is a completely formed thought. As it is, I don't know what the hell you think I was saying, but your replies consist of bizarre non sequiturs. I'm really not in the mood to beat you over the head and make you look like an idiot, but I'm also not going to let misinformation stand unchallenged. So please, take your time and formulate a response that is clear and unambiguous so that I can address your points (whatever they may be) rather than turning this into a pissing match about credibility. I get my way either way, but one of them makes the mods roll their eyes and sigh at me.

 

[thinlizzy]

I get my way either way, . .

Your long winded post proves the above invalid quote.

Thanks for trying, though.

:main_thumbsup:

 

[thinlizzy]

Fascinating

I really don't think ANY reptile enjoys being handled... some tolerate it better than others.

Good evening,

Other than running a zoo and looking through a cage or bullet-proof glass and simple observation:

Why do you house a reptile? What's the point of having anything if there are barriers between you and them?

Seems quite pointless and most definitely unfair to the innocent reptile. It's slavery taken in that respect. Let the creature go if you're too scared to handle it. You'll feel better if you do because it's the right thing!

Just my opinion but what if someone put you in a cage and all they ever did was look at you?

Sounds a bit like a peeping tom or a mad scientist without a decent laboratory.

Just my two cents. Not to be confused with "sense."



Take care

 

[Dimidiata]

^ because people want to have a status in this world. By owning a reptile we earn a form of status that puts us aside from other people. Im not saying everyone who owns a rep just cares about the attention, most of them do care for the animla. BUT why is it that we MUST touch it if we own it? Some people can appreciate the beauty without handeling it. In my opinion its better not to handle certin animals that we own. NOW if you wanna come to my house some time ill be GLAD to find you a gator or pygmy rattler to play with. OR a cotton mouth. BUT im not driving my happy ass to your area just to watch a fool die.

EDIT. That last post to M.S made no point and was of no intelligence.

 

[thinlizzy]

why is it that we MUST touch it if we own

ill be GLAD to find you a gator or pygmy rattler to play with. OR a cotton mouth.

to watch a fool die. That last post to M.S made no point and was of no intelligence.[/

Hmm, you give a terrible example regarding intelligence, my friend. I didn't realize that I was gonna be tagged-teamed. It's quite alright, though. I've handled more poisonous things than you've never even thought about.

My simple point was that no one owns ANY animal!!!

Yet you call me a fool? You want to be a master of a slave?

Yeah, bro, that's some fine intelligence you've got going on!

I sleep with 'gators and walk komodos on a leash.

A cottonmouth?

Please...try an irukandji! But I would never offer something so poisonous to anyone, friend or foe. Yet you offer me a rattler. I've milked diamondbacks too many times to count.

Intelligence...is that what YOU think you truly have by cutting me down needlessly? I think everything has been blown out of proportion.

But, that's how life is, it seems. At least now-a-days.

Quite sad IMVHO.

 

[Mel&Keith]

If everyone is finished with this little pissing match the thread will remain open. If some members continue to be argumentative in a disrespectful manner, I'm going to shut it down.

 

[thinlizzy]

Apologies set forth for any of my posts that are offensive to anyone.

I'm just a mirror of those that respond but I truly have good intentions and never mean any harm to anyone on these forums.

Thanks for your moderation...it keeps things in check!

:main_yes:

 

[gecko4245]

Great points!

but unless you've lived with a reptile for almost thirty years then I reckon my posts will be laughed upon.

Sad because lack of experience surely isn't the best teacher. What's the longest period that you've housed a reptile? Just curious and thanks for your reply.

Take care

I am guessing you mean a particular one? I had a leopard gecko for 12 years which was already an adult so he was actually older than 12, but he was given to me by a friend from a pet store so I was not sure of his actual age.
I was very patient and gentle with him, but no matter what I did he was never comfortable being held. I would even offer food and all he did was run and try to hide. 12 years with no success. Every time I returned him to the cage he would hide and not come out for another day or 2.

 

[thinlizzy]

My leo, whom my second daughter named "Tico" used to feed like crazy for three days and go into his magnetic cave for five days. His tail was extremely fat. And, he looked just like a leopard..in a lizard kind of way!...

I live by myself and it may sound redundant, crazy or absurd but he was my only thing, for almost six years, that I truly took care of.

I'm confident that Tico realizes it but is simply having fun and new adventures exploring something much larger than his mediocre cage.

I don't blame him.