Help me figure this one out...

[Khrysty]

Okay, my "I'm a biology pre-vet major and work at a [mostly cats and dogs] veterinary clinic" friend keeps commenting about the way I keep my leos. I don't keep them the way HE keeps them...his way being the RIGHT way. It drives me absolutely insane but I can't really ever say anything for fear of being rude, ya know?

My bf and he were talking about Kamea, one of my leos with very, very mild MBD. He's convinced she needs full spectrum lighting--that all leos benefit from such lighting (they'll eat better, will have brighter colors, etc..) and that they should really all have it anyway.

During this conversation, he apparently mentioned research that proved they weren't completely nocturnal animals and therefore are receptive to such lighting...

Anyone else heard of this research? Could you point me in the right direction so I could read it for myself?

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Malarkey! :main_rolleyes:

 

[Srt14292]

Total codswallop if you ask me.

 

[Khrysty]

Malarkey! :main_rolleyes:

Total codswallop if you ask me.

You guys make me feel so much better.

 

[gitrdone0420]

Ok, Well the THEORY behind it goes like this: (And BTW if you find my thread about my vet telling me I need a UVA/UVB bulb, this is where my info is coming from).

When I took my leo to the vet the first time (mind you, a non herp vet) she was convinced that it has MBD. She consulted two vet/zoo specialists on either sides of the country via phone and they agreed with her.
They said that leos need cal with D3 (Yes, we all know that), but that by giving it in a powdered form, it does nothing. They said that they need the D3 via sunlight because light is the only way that the body can break down that molecule and use it constructively. Apparently, there is an OH bond that can only be broken down via sunlight, hence the UVA/UVB.

I agree, to an EXTENT. Leos are nocturnal, therefore barely ever see the light of day. However, I could maybe foresee them getting some very mild sunlight from reflection, or venturing out occassionally, I really dont know how they are in the wild.

My personal theory is that they can skim by without the bulb. Would the bulb hurt them? Probably not. So should we try it? Well, we can. But, as far as my research is concerned... I look to all of the breeders. They keep thousands of thousands of leos in tubs, in racks, never to see a bulb or the light of day. And they are fine! How many do we see with a problem because they didnt have a UVA/UVB light? Not many, BUT there are some (Potentially my little one that I am dealing with).

So, my conclusion is this. You are BOTH right. He is correct in his thinking that yes it may help, it could work. But you are correct too... I dont think not having one will hurt them. Maybe you could try the bulb on yours with mild MBD and see if it helps?

I think I am going to start my own little experiment myself and put a bulb on one of mine and see how it compares to the rest of time. It would be interesting if anything.

 

[gitrdone0420]

Just out of curiousity, how does he keep is leos compared to yours?

 

[Khrysty]

Just out of curiousity, how does he keep is leos compared to yours?

He's got them all underneath full spectrum lighting, only feeds crickets (feeding mealworms is bad, according to him) and some other things I can't remember offhand. I don't think what he's doing is bad, by any means, I just don't think it's the only way to keep them, ya know?

 

[gitrdone0420]

Well, I wouldnt put them under full spectrum lighting. I can just make an argument for UVA/UVB...
Why in the world would meal worms be bad? I know that they can be a little fatty, but it provides variety of nutritional value to their diet.
I believe that the perfect diet would consist of a mix between crix, MW, SW, WW, etc. They all offer different nutritional values.

I would have to say that majority rules on this one! lol (The way everyone on this thread seems to keep their leos is pretty consistant and similiar to eachother- It works for us).

 

[Khrysty]

I would have to say that majority rules on this one! lol (The way everyone on this thread seems to keep their leos is pretty consistant and similiar to eachother- It works for us).

Hah, yeah. I've done my research, ya know? I'm nothing if not thorough. It's just always frustrating when this guy talks because I'm not certain enough to tell him he's wrong. I always just nod and don't say a thing.

His thing about mealworms is that they're too chitinous and WILL cause impaction.

Idk where he comes off about the full spectrum lighting :/

 

[acpart]

I have read somewhere (and I don't remember where) that it is likely in nature that leos take advantage of dawn and dusk sunlight and get their D3 that way, so that may be something on the side of the "full spectrum light" issue. On the other side, I keep my day geckos according to the method used and advocated by Leann and Gregg Christenson ("The Day Gecko in Captivity") who recommend providing lighting that shows off the day geckos' coloring the best way and providing the D3 through powdered supplements rather than UV. I have been keeping a gold dust and a P. klemmeri this way for 3 and 4 years and they are extremely healthy.

The mealworm issue may largely stem from an article available on another forum and most likely linked to through this forum (do a search). I did not find it convincing and my babies do fine on a mealworm diet.

There is definitely more than one way to keep a leo well as anyone could see who reads about people's set-ups.

Aliza

 

[gitrdone0420]

There is definitely more than one way to keep a leo well as anyone could see who reads about people's set-ups.

Aliza

I completely agree, so maybe yall should agree to disagree? Just ask him politely not to criticize how you keep your leos.

 

[Khrysty]

I completely agree, so maybe yall should agree to disagree? Just ask him politely not to criticize how you keep your leos.

I could do that. But most of the time he's talking to my bf about it. And the poor guy is brand new to the leo world and is so terrified of doing something wrong with them that every time this guy says we're doing something wrong, it sets my bf into a panic lol.

 

[gitrdone0420]

I could do that. But most of the time he's talking to my bf about it. And the poor guy is brand new to the leo world and is so terrified of doing something wrong with them that every time this guy says we're doing something wrong, it sets my bf into a panic lol.

Ha! that is how I was! My boyfriend is the one who got me into leos and when I was brand new, I listened to everyone! When one of the vets told me to feed my leos veggies, I texted my bf and told him to get veggies asap! And post it on GF to show the world! (omg, I was stupid!) So glad he didnt post it and now know better!

Bad bad vet!

 

[Khrysty]

Ha! that is how I was! My boyfriend is the one who got me into leos and when I was brand new, I listened to everyone! When one of the vets told me to feed my leos veggies, I texted my bf and told him to get veggies asap! And post it on GF to show the world! (omg, I was stupid!) So glad he didnt post it and now know better!

Bad bad vet!

Hehe, yeah I read your thread. It's okay, though. You just wanted to do what's best. We're taught to trust vets, but it's really hard when you've got "uncommon" animals that they don't seem to know a darned thing about :/

It's so cute when he worries, too ^.^ I just like to know that I can ease his worry in good conscience and not wonder if I'm telling him something that's not entirely true, ya know?

 

[Angel]

I have 3 tanks with leos currently I have my 2 breeders in 1 50 gallon split in 2 sides and never use the uvb light as they are never up during the day and hide, then i have my other 2 tanks with my rescued girl and my young boy and i use my uvb alternating between the 2 tanks as they are up and about throughout the day and figure they could benefit from it.
I have heard of the MW being too chitinous but for beardys not leos I feed crickets and MW too my leos but not MW to my beardys, perhaps your friend is taking advice that is meant for beardys as they need the full spectrum lighting and no MW lol.
BTW I havent noticed any difference in my leos as far as color wise by using the uvb Its more of concern of MBD and the thought that the light isnt gonna hurt them that I use it.
I

 

[BSM]

Most vets no absolutely nothing regarding reptiles, i have had my share. When i had to bring an argus/flavi cross monitor to the vet as she broke her leg from a 6ft fall and when she asked about the cage, heating and all that she said i was doing everything wrong. It was funny as she only knew how to take care of monitors from those 1990 books that are crap and outdated on care etc. My temps should of being 100f instead of my 140-160F which is needed for proper digestion and i should take them out of the cage to feed. It was so hard not to laugh as i wouldn't of had 10 monitors in tip top shape and over 6 clutches from one of the females.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

I heard that in the wild the leopard geckos will lay with their tails sticking out of the rocks sometimes in order to get some sunlight to synthesize D3 & heat. The ability to drop their tail could be useful if a predator attacked them in that situation. I put a heat bulb on them one time and some of them stuck their tails out or even came completely out to bask in it. I don't know if that means anything, I just found it interesting.

 

[Bellalee]

Most vets.. or pre-vet majors are arrogant, they've been taught to be that way, that's why they are going to get into vet school, they are incredibly intelligent, they've been told that, and they hardly ever think they are wrong. (Maybe that's my problem and while I'll NEVER get into vet school) Anyways tell him to get his head out of his butt and when he specializes in exotics then you'll talk.

I take everything a vet says with a grain of salt, you need to because once again they always think they are right (or the ones that I've met). Anyways just keep on doing what your doing .. your fine.

 

[ctleo203]

I heard that in the wild the leopard geckos will lay with their tails sticking out of the rocks sometimes in order to get some sunlight to synthesize D3 & heat. The ability to drop their tail could be useful if a predator attacked them in that situation. I put a heat bulb on them one time and some of them stuck their tails out or even came completely out to bask in it. I don't know if that means anything, I just found it interesting.

my gecko does this i got her in the living room just outa way of direct sunlight and she loves to just keep her tail out and often early in the morning i catch her laying on warm side outa the hide. prolly getting a nice early morning lay as using the twilight hours to her advantage. seeing how allot animals have trouble seeing during switch from night to day or day to night.

 

[Northstar Herp]

GITRDUN0420-

My personal theory is that they can skim by without the bulb. Would the bulb hurt them? Probably not. So should we try it? Well, we can. But, as far as my research is concerned... I look to all of the breeders. They keep thousands of thousands of leos in tubs, in racks, never to see a bulb or the light of day. And they are fine! How many do we see with a problem because they didnt have a UVA/UVB light? Not many, BUT there are some (Potentially my little one that I am dealing with).

Not that this adds anything at all to the discussion, but when we got our first leo, we kept her on sand, no heat, in the basement, no calcium for a year and a half. No shed problems, no MBD. We just didn't know, and thought we had been told what we needed to do. Finally, I googled them to see if they were mean or not, and that changed everything.

My point, difficult to see though it is, is that theorizing about the wild or yacking about biology don't hold TOO much sway with me. Even experience, when so limited, can't be relied upon (look at my initial experience). But the thousands and thousands of leos that have lived their entire lights without UVB convince me totally. There are so many folks that keep them without it that if they NEEDED it, we would know it by now.