I learned a lesson

[Wowoklol]

i totally agree with all of you. i think it is just a shame that people would rather make a "quick buck" than be honest and have future repeat customers. i just dont get how these people dont understand that it will be so much better in the long run...although i dont know how many people i have seen "come and go" for this very reason. and Landen, you made a great point about new breeders and being prepared for this. i think new breeders should be prepared to keep and raise EVERY baby they EVER produce, just incase...there are just so many veriables in our hobby(especially the breeding aspect), and i think that very reason is why so many new breeders fail. too many think this is a get rich quick business, and they fail to realize that most(if not all) of the first money to be made, goes back into the collection. realistically, new breeders should not expect a profit for two, maybe three years(if not more). and im also with you Laney, i would rather have a "few" repeat customers, than a bunch of one time customers. people who know me, know they are getting the highest quality animals possible, and unmatched customer service...i wouldnt have it any other way. i dont care about being one of the "big names", but rather someone with the above qualities. some of the "big names" are really great and keep up with thier quality and customer service...but unfortunately i see alot of them more focused on "how many sales" they make. i dont care how long i do this or how many animals i sell, i will always focus on the health and quality of my animals. and i will treat every customer i have with utmost respect and honesty, as i would expect if(and when) i buy animals. its only right, and in my opinion...there is no other way. too bad everyone selling animals does not see it this way.

I'm sure everyone here would agree Rick.
But I reserve the right to put a three legged dog on my table. He has as much right to be loved as a four legged dog. Natural Selection is not based on physical ability alone. Animals can adapt and thrive. If this was not genetic, then I see nothing wrong with offering this animal for sale unlike others have stated. Of course with full disclosure.. This sale was done in person. I'll be alot less quick to blame the seller in this instance since I'm assuming the buyer had a chance to see the animal before the purchase. Its not like this guy is posting pics of pristine animals online then shipping bums. Shows, especially the big ones can be very chaotic. We don't know the full circumstances behind this transaction and shouldn't be so quick to assume. The BOI is going to have fun this this one.. Can you link the post when it goes up? If this is allowed of course.

 

[sunshinegeckos]

I wonder if any of the "I want to become a breeder" people ever think about the "others" they will likely produce. It's the downside of this, being raised in a farming community, I've witnessed breeders of numerous types of livestock practice culling habits to protect their genetics. There should be more posts, showing the "special needs" that are produced to educate people on the other side of breeding. I think most breeders are scared it would portray a negative image of their stock, but it happens to us all and ultimately even happens regularly in nature. From the little guys on up to the big guys too.

I completely agree. As a future breeder I am aware that I will probably have to make the horrible decision to cull a hatchling due to a major defect. Its the dowside of breeding and not everyone thinks of the downside when breeding. With the projects I am working on I will have some holdbacks to breed back and that takes room as well as room for those that dont sell right away or at all and I am prepared for that. Ivew always been a planner and so I am learning everything I can before I try to breed. I am sure I will make more mistakes but who hasn't made mistakes?

I am not unhappy with the outcome because I got my moneyback (and used it to buy the awesome little raptor girl from Laney I just hope others can learn from my mistake because this board is for sharing and learning from others.

 

[sunshinegeckos]

I'm sure everyone here would agree Rick.
But I reserve the right to put a three legged dog on my table. He has as much right to be loved as a four legged dog. Natural Selection is not based on physical ability alone. Animals can adapt and thrive. If this was not genetic, then I see nothing wrong with offering this animal for sale unlike others have stated. Of course with full disclosure.. This sale was done in person. I'll be alot less quick to blame the seller in this instance since I'm assuming the buyer had a chance to see the animal before the purchase. Its not like this guy is posting pics of pristine animals online then shipping bums. Shows, especially the big ones can be very chaotic. We don't know the full circumstances behind this transaction and shouldn't be so quick to assume. The BOI is going to have fun this this one.. Can you link the post when it goes up? If this is allowed of course.

My problem with the seller was not disclosing the defect. Not that he had it for sale. It would make a perfectly good pet for someone just wanting a pet, but how can you be so sure it would go to someone who just wants it as a pet and will not breed it down the road. Thats a risk you take and me personally I would never take that chance. If it had been me I would have kept it for myself. But thats only what I would do. I can't make that decision for anyone else. And yes I made a mistake in not fully inspecting the gecko. I made this post to just warn others to not do the same mistake I made. I will not be posting on the BOI about this because I do not have the info on the seller anymore and cant contact them to let them know about it which is against the BOI policy.

 

[fsbulldog24]

i actually think that's a good idea. i might show off some of my pet only leos tomorrow.

I would like to see this. I am just starting out with Leos, but i could see myself trying breeding in a few years(3-4 years maybe?). I would love to get an idea of what to expect from this side of breeding because it isn't something that is discussed/shown a lot. And i agree with others on the issue. This is bad in the gecko world, and is an example of poor business ethics in any type of business setting. I have never sold leos, but if i was going to sell a leo with a deformity, i would've marked its container specially, or set out some type of disclaimer by that leo. If the seller didnt want to do this, then it should have been on their mind the whole time. I dont mind the breeder selling a gecko with a deformity, as long as it didnt effect its quality of life. But when confronted about the issue, the breeder should have had a lengthy sincere apology and given the money back to the customer immediately!

 

[Landen]

So I'm thinking you just didn't read his comment I quoted then. Cool. Had nothing to do with disclosure. /sigh

Wowoklol - So I'm thinking you just didn't read the original post where she used the terminology "severely deformed leg".

There were two things I didn't agree with. One was the seller not disclosing the issue prior to it being bought. And two was the fact that it was not a minor defect, it was a "severely deformed leg".

/sigh/

 

[Landen]

Christina - I'm glad that everything worked out for you in the end and the seller did the right thing by refunding the money. I won't buy an animal unless I can handle and inspect it first. I've seen too many issues on others tables to practice anything less.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

I got a lovely Super snow female at a USARK auction last year without prior inspection. I was pleased with her until I took her to the vendor who donated her and asked if they had an approximate age. She was very small......... so feed her up. Well, when we got back home and I had her set up in her quarantine tub, I realized she had MBD. Some leg bowing but a great appetite. She was started right away on the treatment program my vet recommends and it was mostly corrected, but still slight bowing. She was with me about 5 months and I decided not to keep her, since my space is limited. I sold her at a Tampa show to a young man who was told everything about her condition, at a much reduced price. He stopped by our table last weekend and said she's doing great, has grown a little more, he's been very happy with her. I've seen geckos marked as retired breeders, pet only geckos, needs work geckos, and as long as there's full disclosure there's no harm done IMO.

 

[Adinar]

I got a lovely Super snow female at a USARK auction last year without prior inspection. I was pleased with her until I took her to the vendor who donated her and asked if they had an approximate age. She was very small......... so feed her up. Well, when we got back home and I had her set up in her quarantine tub, I realized she had MBD. Some leg bowing but a great appetite. She was started right away on the treatment program my vet recommends and it was mostly corrected, but still slight bowing. She was with me about 5 months and I decided not to keep her, since my space is limited. I sold her at a Tampa show to a young man who was told everything about her condition, at a much reduced price. He stopped by our table last weekend and said she's doing great, has grown a little more, he's been very happy with her. I've seen geckos marked as retired breeders, pet only geckos, needs work geckos, and as long as there's full disclosure there's no harm done IMO.

And that's how it should be done. No shadey dealings, straight forward. :main_thumbsup: To the OP, glad it all worked out for you. Having gone to how many reptile shows and seeing some pretty horrendous things at some tables... it is a lesson learned. One of the reasons why we like dealing with the same breeders for the animals we have.

 

[Wowoklol]

Wowoklol - So I'm thinking you just didn't read the original post where she used the terminology "severely deformed leg".

/sigh/

All I was saying was I think the Leo should have had a chance at adoption because it wasn't genetic. Says the breeder. That's all

 

[Wowoklol]

My problem with the seller was not disclosing the defect. Not that he had it for sale. It would make a perfectly good pet for someone just wanting a pet, but how can you be so sure it would go to someone who just wants it as a pet and will not breed it down the road. Thats a risk you take and me personally I would never take that chance. If it had been me I would have kept it for myself. But thats only what I would do. I can't make that decision for anyone else. And yes I made a mistake in not fully inspecting the gecko. I made this post to just warn others to not do the same mistake I made. I will not be posting on the BOI about this because I do not have the info on the seller anymore and cant contact them to let them know about it which is against the BOI policy.

Yeah I know and I agree. That wasn't directed at you. He should have disclosed the problem obviously. Question though. How did the deal go down? How many animals did he have for sale? Do you think he was aware this animal was the one with the defect at the time of sale?

 

[LZRDGRL]

In my opinion, the seller should have labeled the deli cup with, "Mack Snow female, severely deformed front leg, reduced price, PET ONLY." Maybe he MEANT to TELL the buyer about the deformity, but forgot about it in the heat of action, with other people standing around and talking. It needs to be written down.

This is how I do it at shows. I always have a few "underdogs" with minor issues, and I label the cups with, "slight tail kink," "underbite," "slight MBD, needs liquid calcium," "dropped tail in fight, needs to be kept separate," etc. Even THAT is not enough!! At the Wheaton show, a young guy came and wanted to grab all my free adoptable geckos. One was labeled, "Enigma syndrome." I asked him, "have you read what it says here? She has a bad form of the Enigma syndrome." And he said,"No, I just wanted to get free stuff. What's this???" So even if you label things correctly, you need to instruct the buyer or adopter what he/she is getting into, and what special care the gecko needs.

Each of my customers is always getting a care sheet. I'm thinking on including a "special needs care sheet" for adoptable geckos, just in case buyers really don't know that they have to hand feed Engimas with a strong syndrome, to give extra calcium to geckos with MBD, and to use any weak or genetically impaired geckos as PET ONLY.

I never had a gecko with a severe deformity like a shortened leg or a smaller eye or so. I would not offer those for adoption at shows, simply because I believe the quality of shows is going down when lots of bargaining people come around to get "free stuff." If they are so cheap, I wonder if they have money laid aside for a vet visit if it becomes necessary! I have a special Adoption tab on my website where I offer "underdogs," because somehow I believe people who take the trouble of looking up geckos on the Internet are more knowledgeable than those who come to shows for "free stuff." They also need to pay 50 bucks for shipping, so they must really care for the gecko and be willing to offer it a good home. (And not use it as snake food or so--who would pay $50 for that??)

As breeders, you always have to weigh between customer friendliness and your right NOT to sell to a specific person, because the well-being of the animal comes first.

Chrissy

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I feel very strongly about sellers disclosing ANY issue with ANY thing they are selling. If I have less-than-perfect geckos, I adopt them out with full disclosure. At least the person(s) taking the animals can make informed choices.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

I agree completely with Marcia. Full disclosure should be something people don't hesitate to do as well as properly informing anyone who purchases an Enigma of the symptoms which follow the gene.

I am fortunate enough to work with a exotic vet who knows a great deal about reptiles who promotes and allows me to do preventative procedures and medications as well as wellness checks on anything that is not acting or appearing normal.

Sorry to hear about your situation.

 

[sunshinegeckos]

Yeah I know and I agree. That wasn't directed at you. He should have disclosed the problem obviously. Question though. How did the deal go down? How many animals did he have for sale? Do you think he was aware this animal was the one with the defect at the time of sale?

It seemed like he was mainly into snakes as he had more snakes than geckos. He had about 6 geckos. He knew of the defect because when I brought her back her said (and I quote) "Oh yeah I knew about that and forgot to tell you when you bought her) so he was aware of the fact but I got my money back so I am happy with the outcome although I wonder what is going to happen to her. If I had room for another pet only I might have kept her anyways but I don't.

 

[Landen]

It seemed like he was mainly into snakes as he had more snakes than geckos.

Did he breed them himself? Sounds like a snake guy just trying to make a buck on the gecko's IMO...

I wonder what is going to happen to her.

Probably went right back out on the table but marked down 50%.... :main_thumbsdown:

 

[sunshinegeckos]

i saw her on the table the next day but with the same price as what I bought her at. Your right he probably was just a snake guy trying to get money off of geckos. He had a hard time selling them with Mike from Reptiles by Rekowski next to him and Laney across from him selling some awesome geckos