Important! The "own line" - Discussion

[Dragoon Gecko]

Hi together!
There is a topic that is laying heavy on my heart for some years now.
I deeply hope I do not offend any one, but have watched it for so long, and after long thoughts I decided to bring this topic up here as I cannot keep silent any longer :main_lipsrsealed::main_no:.

We all know the problem of the kind of people rushing into gecko-breeding without proper knowledge, and then claiming to have their "own lines" or "new mutations" in no time when in fact they do not. (I do NOT mean all the talented, passionate and experienced breeders who produce awesome new projects and bloodlines for us, as I always love to see their new projects coming up )

I am talking about the people who rush into breeding, only focus on producing the "million dollar gecko" but not even learn proper genetics, and what can be influenced in the leopardgecko and what not.

They give fancy names to simple crosses such as "White & Lavender", which are in fact nothing but simple crosses: The F1 result of crossing a W&Y into a Lavender (done so from a first year (!) breeder in europe). Others buy high end lines such as Electrics for examples, and then re-naming the offspring they sell as "XY-gecko Electrics" (also already done)when in fact all they do is reproducing an already established bloodline. Most of those "breeders" cause great confusion due to the mass of fancy names that do not keep their promisses at all.

Unfortunately this problem has become very common during the last years, as people realize that we do not have any official commissions and therefore think they can do as they please. Such people damage not only the reputation of the gecko scene, but also in greater number influence the whole market as customers nowadays react much more careful and sceptical towards all new projects and lines. Even experienced breeders do have more trouble selling new stuff, as sales are going slower than they did in the past, where almost everyone was eager to work with something new. Which clearly shows that all the serious and experienced top breeders have to deal with the consequences..

What clearly opens the floodgates to morally questionable "lines" is the fact that we as a community at this time do not agree in the question which points must be achieved at a minimum to call one of your breeding projects your own bloodline.
I think we are all very well aware of the fact that you cannot breed your own "line" after 1 year of breeding. But where do draw the line here?
Which brings me to my discussion: My deepest wish would be that we can have a high quality discussion on the question what exactly defines a "line", and separates it clearly from a "project" or a "cross".

I know we had some discussions before about the use of official standarts in gecko breeding (like in dog breeding), but this is not the point here. I am well aware that regulation is not everything, and that every breeder should be free to work on his own projects. But in all honesty I think an overall agreement, a guideline for beginner breeders that shows them how to do it right, and which are the no-go's would be deeply appreciated not only for all serious beginner breeders (as those ones do suffer too under the current circumstances), but also for a better way to deal with "black sheeps" here in the forums and in the scene in future.

I hope very much that Kelly, Marcia, and all the other sucessful breeders take part in this discussion, and hope very much we can find an agreement on the question which steps a beginner should or must take AT A MINIMUM before claiming something his "own line". I deeply respect that our gecko community is usually shy to make regulations in order to give as much freedom as possible, but we already have an agreement here about crossing albino strains for example- and it is for the best . Therefore I think such a guideline within this forum would not be deeply needed and appreciated, but also would change a lot to the better with time..

Thanks a lot for reading .

/Rebecca

 

[lillith]

I might be naive about it, but I vote for 3-5 years and a significant difference visually. That's why I call my earthtone tangerine line-bred project a project. I won't consider it its own line for at least another two seasons, and probably not until longer, if it's not what it looks like visually. I have been very careful to not call it a new morph. Because of this very issue.

People can openly criticize that if they want, I am three seasons into it, and I don't consider it "done" yet.

I would love to hear from more folks who have been doing this longer than I have. Please speak up!

 

[acpart]

Interesting issue. For a starting point, it would be good to have a minimum number of generations before something could be a "line". Say, 5 generations. That would mean the person would have to have been breeding for 5 years and it would eliminate a lot of newcomers who can't stick with it.
The other part is to keep educating people about morphs and quality so they know what questions to ask.

Aliza

 

[acpart]

Great minds think alike!

Aliza

 

[Griesi]

I know we had some discussions before about the use of official standarts in gecko breeding (like in dog breeding), but this is not the point here./Rebecca

Hi Rebecca,

from our talkings, I`m sure you know that I agree to everything you wrote here.
I think no one ever wanted to go down this road, but I`m sure we will need some standarts. This is what happened to all birds, mammals, fishs and even to shrimps (!) that are bred in a larger scale with mutations.
It should give the experienced breeders fun to see their lines being credited and the younger ones advice what to do and what not to do.
AND it could also show the general public: We take this serious. Reptile keepers do not only keep dangerous wild-caught beasts- but we are not different than the bird/rabbit/cat-breeder in the same town (we are of course, but don`t tell them ).
It`s now the time to start this in North America, Europe and Asia, as we all get under pressure from "animal right activists" and the hobby got to a point where everyone thinks he has to breed his animals.

Creating standarts in open-minded communities (maybe even "wikis") and having experienced and widely accepted judges, for example "retired experienced breeders" (I`m sure you all know some names of respected leopard gecko breeders that got out of the hobby for some resasons), biologists and vetenerians. And why not even speaking about shows & competitions with prices at a regional basis, for example at the Hamm or Daytona-show?

I, as a biologist with lot`s of kowledge about bearded dragons- but without breeding them at this point, was once invited to be one of the judges for a beraded dragon competition. The animals were setup in a special display, anonymized and us judges created a list with objective criteria. We voted for one of these animals and the visitors did also have the chance to choose one animal as the one they liked most. It was a lot of fun, the owner of the winners were happy with the prices they won and they advertised their next year offsprings as "offspring of the winner of last years beraded dragon award".


Thanks for your words
Karsten

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Just some thoughts from back in da day... same discussion from 4 years ago.
http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=17559
Keep on keepin on! :main_thumbsup:

 

[lillith]

I think it's great to reference that thread, but I also think it's a concept that we could take a renewed look at, as a community.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

I agree but many of the same thoughts still apply.

These were some of my thoughts from back then and I would still use them today.


"I have come to some conclusions with the help of many others thoughts.

The amount of time and dedication put into a project are important.
Although I have not come to a conclusion on the exact amount of time is necessary.
I am comfortable with 3 generations with the expected results. Consistency in reproduction is a must.

The line or morph must be easily distinguished from others.


A general acceptance of the morph or the line by the community is key.

A good reputation and standing in the hobby will play a major role here as well."

I am in no way saying to end the discussion just because it was talked about some years back. I am only linking that thread because some of the points made at that time are still relevant today. There are also, I am sure some new valid points that can be made today. So by all means carry on. :main_laugh:

 

[lillith]

Very relevant, thanks!

 

[Dragoon Gecko]

Thank you all so far and great thoughts Karsten :main_thumbsup:!
As a "child of standard fish breeding" I personally would love the idea of a competition, even just for fun :main_yes:. But this topic is for the community to decide in another post, as I want to focus more on the definition of "line-breeding" here..

@lilith: I feel the same with my projects I am working with. Most of them are in my eyes simply improvements or new combos of already existing morphs. I simply see no sense here re-naming them. They stay what they are- ghosts and four eyeds and hyglos etc.

Thanks alot Jeremy for the old post & your actual thoughts and ideas about the topic:main_thumbsup:..
Although the topic has already been discussed before, as said in my first post I really hope we as a community can now take the chance to finally find an agreement here on the minimum necessary to claim something your own line. It would clear so much confusion and help alot.

/Rebecca

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Rebecca, your post is very well thought out and very honest. I agree with much, if not all of it. However there will never be any way to regulate the hobby standards. The best thing to do is educate ourselves and newbies about what we think is acceptable. THis post will hopefully help alot of people with that.

 

[Griesi]

However there will never be any way to regulate the hobby standards.

Hi Jeremy, there are ways. The same that were introduced by all "non-scale"-animal breeders and I think that there is no need to look for completly new ways of dealing with this issue.
There is a big difference if someone claims to have something new or if a new line is being approved by a accepted society.

greets

 

[Dragoon Gecko]

I understand you Jeremy. Personally, in my opinion this discussion should not be so much about an "official" regulation as such.

As already said, most people here in GF agreed that combining the different albino strains is not such a good idea, and teach this newcomers if necessary. Why? There were countless posts about it in the past, and the majority of people in this forum inofficially agreed after some time for a "no".

If we can manage here to get the majority of top breeders to agree in some points, it will spread alround and newcomers can be educated the same way as in the albino-strain question :main_thumbsup:. Well, that's my hope at least..
/Rebecca

 

[marauderhex]

As for creating new lines, I, as a biologist and reptile enthusiast have to go with somthing more like 10 or 20 generations. To me, creation of lines, and certainly morphs, shouldn't be something that your Everyday Breeder #5 can do. The sheer fact that most morphs on the market can be traced to a handful of lines is important. The morph thing really bothers me since not all morphs are genetically linked. There needs to be a definitive study on leopard gecko genetics before we can start truely classifying morphs.

I know I am not a big time breeder, and have only kept reptiles for just over a decade, but I feel as though there should be more scientific involvement in the discernation of new morphs and lines. Hell, I might go so far as to say that new lines should be started from WC individuals only.

 

[Griesi]

Hi Marauderhex, I see where you are coming from and agree to what you are saying from an ideal world perspective. But in reality, following a color table would probably be more useful than knowing the exact location of affected genes.
As you said, most lines can be broken down to a handful of lines. The rest are just variations- but these can differ a lot! Creating a pedigree with the original line it is coming from and describing and scoring the variations and wanted/unwanted traits shouldn`t be that difficult.
And again: we could learn from others, If Koi breeders can do this, why shouldn`t we be able to do it?
http://www.koi-entwicklung.de/images/genetree.png

And for defining primary and secondary endpoints, wanted and unwanted traits, there just needs to be some sort of society. And this could also be achieved by a "2.0 society", thinking of a morph-wiki or something, where the members can discuss and decide this topics and creating objective checklists.
This is going through my mind for years, and I always come to the same conclusion, that in the long run there is no other way.
This can strengthen the health and value of the animals and our recognition/appreciation (and hopefully even support) of other animal keepers. Something we need more than ever before!
The media likes to bring stories about exotics and think of them talking about first price animals instead of (or at least beside) the next "scandal". And especially the "ever-smiling" leopard gecko could be a good animal for that.
This will of course also help the seríous breeders. We need some sort of classification.

 

[marauderhex]

Hello Griesi. I see where you're coming from with the color table. I agree with what you're saying about endpoints and having a sort of panel with world renound experts on leos to help with the endpoints and how to achieve them.

 

[Dimidiata]

Are there exceptions in the event that a mutation is found(rare but it happens) and is proved in 5-10 generations? I like the idea of this thread, leos dont need to end up like bettas, im always comparing the two because of their similarities, both have been heavily bred and changed by humans to obtain endless numbers of colorations. Unfortunetly, fish just arnt that important to most so the diffrent lines are now pretty scured. Id like to see a statment or list of regulations on this topic. We need to crack down a little bit on some of the breeders that are simply reproducing lines under a new name.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Very thought-provoking topic! I'm not sure if there should be a number of years dedicated to a gecko project in order for it to be considered a 'line'. I feel that if a particular line-bred trait is unique, discernibly identifiable beyond any other of it's type, and is genetically reproducible, it could qualify as a line. Some examples of this include, but are not limited to, Albey's tangerines and line-bred snows, Hiss' Electrics, Letkey's Raining Red Stripe, Hot Geckos' Firewaters, Hine's Carrot-tails, JMG's White-Out, A&M's Jungle Giants, Nieves' tangerines, and many more... perhaps even my own Patternless Carrot-tails or Bold Stripes. After all these years, more times than not I can tell simply by looking at a particular line-bred morph who's line it is.

I agree wholeheartedly that we need a set of basic standards for identifying leopard gecko morphs. Karsten and I discussed this several years ago, but in reality this would only be useful if EVERYBODY was on board. I honestly don't see this as a realistic goal for this reason. Back in the olden days, there weren't that many morphs, and there was a set standard for differentiating a 'jungle' from a 'stripe', and a 'carrot-tail' from a gecko that simply has a lot of orange at the base of it's tail. Today, there are so many morphs with different names, and breeders who travel to the beat of their own drums, a project of this magnitude would be overwhelming.

Sorry to sound less than optimistic.

 

[marauderhex]

What if there was some sort of breeders association or governing/accrediting body, that way it would be easier for people to tell the pro breeders from Joe Downthestreet, who just had a male and female and threw them together.

 

[SFgeckos]

Great discussion and I agree with many of the postings!

In my opinion, years ago when many of these different "lines" were introduced, it was an honor given BY THE COMMUNITY- to recognize their years of hard work and dedication to the hobby, in addition to distinguishing their geckos as unique/special. It seems that in recent years, creating unique names and fancy titles for genetics are more of a MARKETING ploy created by the breeder in an effort to demand higher prices.

I'm not sure if you remember years ago Marcia (2002?) when I vendored and had tangerine geckos marked as "nice" and "nicer". I recall you purchased a unique tangerine with a paradox spot on her. Even though I've worked hard for years on different projects and some people will compare my animals to other "bloodlines", I still refuse to give any special names to my offspring, other than "nice carrottail" or "nice tangerine". This is because I feel they could never have been possible without the work of breeders before me whom my current stock contains bloodlines- even if it's only one or two geckos I purchased many years ago. To do otherwise would not only put aside all the years of hard work they have done, frankly it is a display of human pride and disrespect.

Jon