Important! The "own line" - Discussion

[PhoenixCoconut]

I would say many many seasons would have to go into making your OWN line of something, and it needs to look different. I would say at least a 4-5 year project for your own line. I have always dreamed of having my own line, but if I did I would want it to be different than the electric or tang tornado. I say it just need to be different and not a 1 year thing like Rebecca said It needs to be many different generations and not just a funky looking combo morph!Thanks Rebecca this has been bothering me also!!!!
(and I agree w/ Justin it would be cool if you had to get it approved by people like Marcia Kelli Rebecca and all those other big gecko breeders! That would be amazing so new lines don't just pop out of no where.....I used to think that you had to get it approved when I just learned about these geckos lol )

 

[Dragoon Gecko]

Thank you for your great post marcia!

I'm not sure if there should be a number of years dedicated to a gecko project in order for it to be considered a 'line'. I feel that if a particular line-bred trait is unique, discernibly identifiable beyond any other of it's type, and is genetically reproducible, it could qualify as a line.

I Agree, but doesn't it need at minimum 2-3 generations to reach this point ?
All the wonderful lines you mentioned in your post did not came from nothing:
The breeders who brought them up did put years of work in it.

The Electrics are the perfect example for this, as they were bred for many years and have proven to reproduce in a very strong way since the very first and unique gecko "Electra" popped up- even in crosses. I can say that because first I did when I got mine in 2007 was to do outcrossing, and even the crosses showed this typical look which comes from this lineage.. I can tell by one look which animals belong to that line. ( And of course I can say the same about some other bloodlines I have worked with such as hotgecko etc.)

Those 2 points are IMO a definite proove for deserving the status of an own bloodline.

/Rebecca

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Jon, I remember that gorgeous "nicer" tangerine female I got from you about 10 years ago! Like you, I tend to be a little more conservative with naming the geckos I work with anything other than what they are, LOL!

 

[Griesi]

Dear Marcia, I was reminded of our e-mail conversation, when I had a somewhat longer phonecall with a well known german reptile breeder. He does not breed any kind of reptile morphs, but he is in the reptilebusiness for a long time- and in his youth he breeded poultry morphs (yes, this was quite popular some decades ago in europe). He asked me why there aren`t any breed standards and competitions for reptile morphs, as this worked even for poultry in the last century to stabilize the market.
I was not able to answer his question.

Marcia, you mentioned some lines that are widely accepted. If some of the originators of these lines would get together in something like a "breeder association" and would find a harmonized way to describe them,...this could be the first step.
Showing a clear pedigree/lineage/history overview, defining traits a healthy leopardgecko shows in general, defining the traits an animal of their lineage has to show, what is a plus or a minus if you want to rate one of the animals of their line. This would make it much easier for breeders and buyers to define low- and highend animals and to justify prices.

The next step should be creating an "approval system" for breeders that want to sell animals from these lines.

In the end if the system would work for some lines, I`m sure others would be more than happy to follow this path. If new lines would like to join this system, their line has to be "peer reviewed" and being approved.
I can`t think of a reason why it shouldn`t work for the reptile scene as it did for all the other animal breeders. People can always decide if they want to follow these rules or even creating their own association- but at least there would be some guidance.
I think the economy crises, the growth of the hobby (and as a result of both the "leopard gecko crises") and the pressure of animal rights activists changed a lot the last 3 years.

I hope everyone gets what I mean, as english is not my first language and I find it even hard to describe it in my own language

 

[Dimidiata]

Thank you for your great post marcia!



I Agree, but doesn't it need at minimum 2-3 generations to reach this point ?
/Rebecca

Even a random mutation needs to proved so id say yes to that. Its not so simple as they have been breeding x and y for say 8 years and then get a z out of one clutch, they should have to prove z to be a consistant new gene correct? Regardless of how long it took them to achive it. Or in the case of many lines, progressive progress as they move down the line to streangthening colors/patterns.

 

[marauderhex]

Even a random mutation needs to proved so id say yes to that. Its not so simple as they have been breeding x and y for say 8 years and then get a z out of one clutch, they should have to prove z to be a consistant new gene correct? Regardless of how long it took them to achive it. Or in the case of many lines, progressive progress as they move down the line to streangthening colors/patterns.

If she is thinking about it the way that I am, then yes, Z, would need to be proven for several generations on it's own to be considered new.

 

[lillith]

Do you guys think I'm wrong to have given my dark tang project a name?
I don't want to be seen as presumptuous...but I like my project.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

I agree with Marcia on this. I don't think a specific time (number of generations) should be a determining factor. I think that if you produce something which is without a doubt visually different than ANY other line out there and most importantly it is an inheritable difference, then you can call it your own line. You should be able to drop a new line tangerine in a tub with Albey, HISS, TUG, Hines, etc. and be able to distinguish it without much thought. Once that can happen (and that look can be duplicated) then go for it.

The fact of the matter is that 90% of people naming a "new" line are simply doing it for marketing or trying to imprint their name behind something (yet again most likely for marketing). The truth is that these lines will fade away simply because quality comes with time, and quality will ALWAYS retain their value and demand...so these over night "morphs" can't compete with quality.

We have some tangerines which we have been working on for about 4 years now (which came from Creamsicle projects using Blood, Electric, Albey, and Emerines) that look unique and inheritable, but have NEVER sold anything from that project...unless it was labeled as X cross with X. Once we have the look more refined we may begin to name them...but still all credit for our animals is mainly due to Albey and Kelli (where most our tangs derived from) for working with their lines long enough to give me the starting geckos (quality) I used.

What I think is equally (if not more) frustrating is people claiming they have a "line" of something when they know full well they do not posses these genetics, but claim it to sell geckos. I have had people claim they are selling "my line" of Creamsicles (which I never had my own line...just crossed JMG line with various tangerines for 4 years creating a different look than his) when they do not posses anything even deriving from "my line".

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Do you guys think I'm wrong to have given my dark tang project a name?
I don't want to be seen as presumptuous...but I like my project.

Don't know the project in particular but these are things I would ask you before I made an opinion;

Where did you get the geckos from?
How many generations have you produced them (and images of the different generations)?
How do they mature (images throughout stages of life)?
What happens when they are crossed with a different line?
Do you ask a premium (increase your price) for "your line"?

As mentioned above...I have "my own line" of tangerines. I have never asked for more than the market value from the crosses used to create my line and have always labeled it as what genetics were used to create it and not "Projects x" (a cheap example of a morph name). Our founding fathers who have 10+ years of genetic work to line bred these morphs deserve the credit. Not me crossing one line with another for a few years and then pretend like I created it or something "new"...when its still their blood line just refined to my liking.

 

[Dimidiata]

http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=81865 The line in this thread lillith?

 

[RogueMonkey]

I agree fully that there are far to many "newer" breeders throwing out names of morphs saying its new and its theirs, I have been working towards a new morph for over 5 seasons now and I can barely call it a project sorry havent came up with a full name for it yet so cant say what it is lol ill release a name when I am fully confident its a new morph. It take time selective breeding and alot of work and understanding of what your doing before you can claim a new morph. My believe on the new morph thing goes something like this, and I plan to do this when I decide I have made something new. I think a person who has a plan to create a new morph should have to take the needed time and needed breeding with history of breeding back to the start of the the morph ( documented breeding) and when such time has come bring it to the gecko community. i.e the breeders with enough reputation and understanding and knowledge. Allow them to look over the documents and then animal(s) and decide if theres anything else like it or if it truely a new morph. Then at this time if decided its new you can call it "your" new morph. Thats just my opinion. And what I plan to do when I am done with my "project".

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I love threads like this!!!

 

[Dimidiata]

I love threads like this!!!

Threads where we get down to business or threads where we have serious discussion without any trolls? Honestly, i think we are doing great maybe dennis's troll spray worked on the entire forum?

 

[Dragoon Gecko]

back to topic please
I personally have no problem if someone gives his project a name to describe what he is doing.
But he should claim it as such- a project. And he should not talk about this project beeing a bloodline as long as it is not proven out (with pics). The status of an own bloodline clearly differs IMO from that of a project:
A project is a try. A bloodline is a result.
/Rebecca

 

[GeckoCrossing]

back to topic please
A project is a try. A bloodline is a result.
/Rebecca

Quoted for truth. I really like the idea of anyone that claims to have created a new line to present photos of the result, and also to provide evidence that it can be passed on to offspring, and whether recessive or dominant. And having the most experienced and top breeders look at it all and come to a consensus would be great.

 

[lillith]

Yes, that thread and I'll get some updated pics for fun and good times and hopefully no arguments in a different thread by this weekend.

Sorry for off-topic.

 

[Dragoon Gecko]

What about the idea to create a new category in this forum, such as
"show off your projects" or "introduce your projects" ?
A place especially for those people willing to share what they have, and longing to get constructive feedback by experienced breeders and keepers. And maybe even help if wished-for..
/Rebecca

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Great Topic!

First off, my post is in no way intended to be a discredit to any of the breeders that have their own lines of any given morph, because the results are certainly deserving.

But for pretty much all the others that haven't been recognized in that particular manner, I would argue why having their own line is so vitally important to them. Isn't the joy of looking in the incubator and seeing a new life that's looking back at you, for which you are the single biggest reason it even hatched from it's egg in the first place, reward enough? If not, then I think you need to question why you're producing leopard geckos in the first place. Just my humble opinion.

As for myself, I simply try to refine the characteristics of a morph that I personally enjoy, for whatever reasons. If at some time the collective public decides there's something distinguishing my "XYZ morph" from others in the community, that will likely be the method by which it happens for me. I have no immediate or foreseeable interest in applying a new name to any morph of leopard gecko I produce. I just plan on getting my satisfaction from seeing baby leopard geckos for as long as I'm blessed to be able to. :main_yes:

 

[RogueMonkey]

Total agreement with sunrise, thats a big reason I started I love to watch the new life.

 

[Big Red One]

As per the last couple of posts really.......

Why does anyone need to say they have a 'line'?
If your animals are quality examples of say carrot tail/tangerine or snows then just call them 'top quality'. There's no reason to have your own line at all, especially as most will originate from someone elses 'lines' in the past.

I don't even like the trade names tbh, typhoon/radar/sunset etc. Just call them rainwater albino eclipse or whatever. At least then people know the genetic 'mix' rather than trying to memorise them. I know it's easier to say/type a one word name but before long it'll be phone text speak, gt a kwl rdr, nd a patt strp rdr fml.......

Only 'new' proven and traceable traits should even be considered as something to be added. Just pairing a few generations of holdbacks to the original founding male isn't really 'creating a new line', it's simple linebreeding. Personally I don't even favour that approach, I'd much rather a new bloodline be brought in.....

Anyway, not that I really care!

Have fun all.