Just got 3 leo's about 3 weeks ago. Have concerns about not eating and behavior.

[tb144050]

I will copy and paste the questionaire below, but first I will give a brief history and my questions:

Karma: Juvenile Leopard Gecko; stong yellow; "not a baby, healthy-looking tail."
Aura: Juvenile Leopard Gecko; solid-bronzish color; largest of 3; very healthy looking.
Rex: Juvenile Leopard Gecko; very dark spots; very long and healthy looking...probably the male.
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I bought "Karma" about a week before buying "Aura" and "Rex". I have had Karma 3weeks now and Aura&Rex for 2 weeks now. Karma ate 8 crickets/day for 2 days, then stopped hunting and shed 3 days later. 2 days after Karma shed, I bought Aura&Rex.

Karma hasn't eaten anything that I remember in 2 weeks. I think Karma has even shed again. Aura & then Rex did the same thing. Ate healthy until they shed and then stopped hunting: Aura 1 week ago, and Rex 2 days ago.

At this point, I am a little concerned because none of them are hunting.

Karma still poops a wet whitish stool (not urates-looking) that looks very much like shed-skin. Karma will not hunt or eat crickets, meal worms, or even waxworms. Karma stays in the moist hide most of the time, but will move to the hot-hide.

Aura will not hunt crickets but will rarely eat one that walks by. Aura stays in the cold-dark hide or the moist-middle hide. She never goes to the hot-hide. Aura ate a waxworm and mealworms that I dropped at the entrance to the darkhide tonight.

Rex would snap at nearby crickets, but miss while he was shedding. Tonight he would walk anywhere to eat the mealworms and waxworm I dropped for him.

Rex used the moist hide for 2 days while shedding, but now he returned to regularly moving from hot to cold hides. It's common for me to find Karma& Rex snuggled in the hot hide; Karma&Aura in the moist hide; or Rex&Aura in the cold-hide.

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So I am worried about:
None of them actually hunting crickets.
Karma wont eat ANYTHING, and still pooping white (shedskin?).
Aura is supershy and won't come to the hot hide.
Karma never seems to go to the cold-hide.

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--------------------QUESTIONAIRE-----------------
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About your leo:
- Sex
---Karma appears female
---Aura appears female
---Rex appears male

- Age & Weight
----All unknown. Juveniles? Just bought within last 3 weeks.

- How long have you owned your leo
----3 weeks, and 2weeks, 2weeks

- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend)
----++++++++

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo
About once every other day.

- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now.
----Not any different today than they have been in the last week.

- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.
----I have not had them long term. Trying to sort out normal behavior from abnormal behavior.

B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal)
----Karma: White-gel look...like shed skin, for several days. There was normal poop and urates with it at first, but it diminished and stopped.
----Aura: wet-mushy but well formed poop, but not much urate.
----Rex: very mushy unformed poop puddles with moderate urates.

- When was the last time he/she went
----Karma: 10 minutes ago
----Aura: last night
----Rex: last night

C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem and how long it has been going on
(see story and summarizing questions above)

Housing:

A) Enclosure
- Size
----20 Gallon long

- Type (ex. glass tank)
----Zoo med Bearded Dragon Terrerium Kit

- Type of substrate
----Repti-carpet, cleaned daily, removed and washed weekly

- Hides, how many, what kind
----cold-dark cave; moist-mossy tupperware in middle; stair-platform they hide under on the hotside.

B) Heating
- Heat source
----10-20gal UTH zoo med heater, on a lampdimmer..hot floor temp is 89.8 F when heatlamps are off.
----60watt Daylight blue reptile bulb
----40watt red reptile bulb

- Cage temps (hot side, cool side)
----Digital Thermometers/Hygrometers 1cm above floor: cold 76.6 F ambient air temp; Hot 83.7 F ambient air temp.....94.5F if I lay the probe on the heated floor directly under the 60watt bulb. 89.8 F if I lay the probe on the carpet centered over the UTH. (I have meticulously tuned the bulbs and heater to get the most recommended temps.)

- Method of regulating heat source
----bulbs, monitored but unregulated
----UTH has a lamp dimmer

- What are you using to measure your temps
----Digital Thermometers with probes

- Do you have any lights (describe)
----Heated bulbs listed above
----also have UVB5 bulb but only used it for 2 days. (it came with kit, and I didn't realize Leo's don't need it if I am dusting properly)

C) Cage mates

- How many (males, females)
----1 male, 2 females

- Describe health, or previous problems
----Unknown. Juveniles chosen due to healthy weight&tail (due to previous sticktail purchased unknowingly but he was in a 10gal different tank/supplies/everything).

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much)
----see above story

- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect)
----see above story

B) Supplements (describe how often)
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands)
----calcium on crickets daily unless: D3calcium twice/week; Multivitamin once/week....but they arent eating. I put D3 on the mealworms and waxworms that Aura and Rex ate tonight, but it doesn't stick well.
---- Non-D3 calcium in bowl in tank. yesterday I sprinkled Non-D3 calcium and multivitamin in their water. They still drink as often as before.

- What are you gut loading food with
----Fluker's calcium cricket-feed and Fluker's cricket "water-gel"

 

[tb144050]

Karma, Aura, and Rex (Top to bottom)...I was cleaning their tank. :0

 

[tb144050]

Here, you can see Rex and Karma snuggled under the warm-hide. Aura is once again in the moist hide.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Personally I dislike the use of any lights on leopard geckos. I feel they are unnecessary unless your house temperature is under 65 degrees the majority of the time. They tend to dry out the cage, stress out the leopard geckos and can overheat the cage if it is not big enough. If you really want to use lights you really need a dark cave for them to hide in and should use a black light 24/7. I recommend granola boxes or the like with a small hole so the geckos can get 100% out of the light and be in complete darkness. The cave you have is very open and very bright inside which probably hurts their eyes and makes them feel insecure with a very bright light over them. I would make some temporary "dark" hides for them (I know they look ugly but they're functional!!) and cover the back and side of the tank so they don't have light coming in from all sides. Also, in my opinion an ambient temp close to 95 is far too hot. I keep all of mine at room temperature (around 70 in my gecko room during the winter) and have no problems.

As for their stool, it may clear up if they are less stressed by light and heat. If it does not, I would recommend getting a fecal examined by a qualified vet to check for internal parasites. Also, they look like they're pretty different in size. I usually recommend not keeping geckos that are more than 10% of their body weight in difference together. if they get too much farther apart in size you may want to separate them just to play it safe. To keep three together for the rest of their lives you may need a bigger tank in a few months. A 20L is too small for three adults in my opinion.

Cute geckos! Good luck with them!!

 

[sausage]

I agree with whats been said by Dr Carrot tail about the lights ect. you havnt had them long either, some geckos take longer then others to settle in. i wouldnt worry about the lack of eating for a while. keep an eye on their weight, if they start to lose weight seek a vet. as already said you should probs see one any way for a parasite test just to be sure.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Good point, it definitely could also be moving stress still as well. I usually give mine two weeks to settle in before expecting them to eat. Your guys don't look skinny or anything so I wouldn't panic if they don't eat for another week or two. If they haven't eaten for a month I would start to really worry and seek out a vet.

I might also get a few more smaller hides on both sides. I try to give my geckos that are kept in groups at least two cool and two warm hides so they can avoid the other geckos and still meet their temperature needs if they want or need to.

 

[tb144050]

cover the back and side of the tank so they don't have light coming in from all sides. Also, in my opinion an ambient temp close to 95 is far too hot. I keep all of mine at room temperature (around 70 in my gecko room during the winter) and have no problems.

I've got the back covered with a black towel and I put in more "lightblockers" to darken up the hot-hide more. I also put in a mac-n-cheese box between the moist-hide and hot-hide so they can retreat 6" from the light on the warm side if they want to.

If you look at the photo named "geckos2", you can see the wires leading to the hot and cold temp probes. My daytime temps right now (with 60w daylight blue bulb on) are: 84.6F ambient hot and 75.6 ambient cold air. The highest possible temp I have gotten is centered over the UTH and under the lamp......the daytime temp there is about 94. But they never lay under the direct light in that spot. They lay under the hot-hide with a floortemp of 89-ish and ambient airtemp under the hot-hide of 83-ish (because the hide blocks some heat of the lamp).

Question 1: How long does it take a Leo to poop all of it's eaten skin? Karma is still pooping white-gel that dissolves when it "dries-up/evaporates."

Question 2: Is there any way to entice them to hunt the crickets? Rex and Aura had NO problem eating mealworms and a waxworm I dropped to them.

 

[tb144050]

*edit* (accidently posted same post twice)

 

[DrCarrotTail]

At proper temps my juvies tend to poop out everything in no more than 36-48 hours. I know this because when I bring them to sell at a show I feed on Thursday night and then not on Friday night and none of them poop in their deli cups at the show Saturday.

Your temps sound okay but I still wouldn't use anything other than black light or better yet a ceramic heat emitter that gives off no light on their cage. As long as the room they're in has a window or a lamp somewhere in it they don't need any more light. I use a stand up lamp next to my rack for my leos. The room also has a window but there's a big tree outside it so it's pretty dim in the room most days. Again, unless your house is under 65 degrees a majority of the time no extra heat other than the UTH is really necessary.

To entice them to hunt crickets you need to get them hungry. If they're eating what's dropped in front of them but not going after more that says to me they'll eat if its convenient enough for them but aren't hungry enough to go out of their way to find food.

 

[tb144050]

At proper temps my juvies tend to poop out everything in no more than 36-48 hours. I know this because when I bring them to sell at a show I feed on Thursday night and then not on Friday night and none of them poop in their deli cups at the show Saturday.

Your temps sound okay but I still wouldn't use anything other than black light or better yet a ceramic heat emitter that gives off no light on their cage. As long as the room they're in has a window or a lamp somewhere in it they don't need any more light. I use a stand up lamp next to my rack for my leos. The room also has a window but there's a big tree outside it so it's pretty dim in the room most days. Again, unless your house is under 65 degrees a majority of the time no extra heat other than the UTH is really necessary.

To entice them to hunt crickets you need to get them hungry. If they're eating what's dropped in front of them but not going after more that says to me they'll eat if its convenient enough for them but aren't hungry enough to go out of their way to find food.

The temperature/drafts and lighting in my house really necessitate the use of a steady temperature inside the tank and a lighting schedule that will reduce their stress. (we keep windows covered and only dim room lighting to help prevent migraines.)


Thanks for the info about the digestive cycle time (36-48hours, average). It has definitely been almost 2 weeks since Karma first shed, so I guess maybe she shed again. She still pooped that dissolving-white-gel last night. Maybe she stays in that moist hide so much that her skin never really looked pale....so I didn't notice the shedding cycle?? I guess it's possible that she shed about 8 days apart, and she is still eliminating the skin with no eating in between the 2 shed cycles??

As for Rex and Aura, I know not to spoil them on wax worms. I would prefer not to hook them on mealworms. I would prefer them to have a base diet of gutloaded dusted crickets. If I want to "induce hunger", how many days should I wait before inserting more crickets?

 

[tb144050]

**also, I did not feed Rex and Aura to their content last night. I fed them each: 1 wax worm and about 5 mealworms. They never lost interest in the food I chose to drop. I chose to stop dropping food because I had verified that they would eat (and Karma would not) but would not hunt.....and I did not want to hinder their nature to "hunt" when they do get hungry.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

I only feed my geckos that are over 25g three times a week. Usually Tuesday, Thursday and whichever weekend day I have the time. My adults over 40g get fed twice a week. Yours look big enough that I don't think it would hurt them to go 4-5 days without food. I would try offering them after two nights without food and if they're not hungry they don't go after them I'd wait another two nights. In general I don't think leos are picky. I have a 12 year old male that had been eating crickets and mealworms from a bowl or hunting them for nine years. He easily started taking dubia from tongs. He's a chow hound that's a bit overly chunky so maybe not the best comparison...haha.

Understandable about the lights and migraines! I might set up a dim desk lamp near their cage and use a CHE or buy a light that's not super bright. Not sure if its the picture but the one you posted here looks like it's really super bright and may stress them out. If it's not as bright as it looks here then I wouldn't worry.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

If you're feeding them waxworms you might be seeing a lot of fat in their poo than might be normal without the treat. That or they might be chowing down on calcium powder if you have it in the tank? Either of those things could cause less than perfect poo. They may also not be willing to hunt if there are bright lights. I think they do consider cost benefit on some level, mostly through instinct. Venturing out in the light (or even at all) would make them more vulnerable to predators. If the calories they would get from hunting are so necessary that they need them to survive it might make the risk okay but if they have enough that the calories would just be an added bonus it might be in their best interest to play it safe. Once they are hungry enough to force them out and/or they figure out that hawks won't swoop out of the sky and eat them on the spot they may feel more secure and hunt more. Often they get confidence as they grow. It's good to hear they are eating!

 

[tb144050]

This is the daybulb I use (exact same packagine with leopard gecko on front). For the night bulb, I bought a 40watt ZooMed Red Reptile bulb...to accomodate a lower night-time temp drop of ~7degrees F on the hot ambient air temp (without changing the 89.8F UTH floortemp setting).

I guess I will let them empty their bellies for a few days. Hopefully I will see them start hunting like my wife's younger juvenile (in a separate 10gal tank). His tank is "tuned" similarly but he eats a total of 15 small crickets a day easily, and he spends half the night hunting for the crickets that hide.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Even though ZooMed advertises with a leo on the front, from what I've been reading it's thought that most geckos can see both blue and red lights. If they can, those two would make it kind of like having a light on for them 24/7. The only light I've read they cannot see if a black "moonlight" bulb or the CHE that only gives heat without the light.

 

[Poppy243]

I agree with what is said about the lights. Also, just because a company puts an animal on the packaging doesn't mean it's actually really all that good for that animal, sadly. I'd say just let the UTH heat it and let the geckos have the normal room lighting for actual light, and see what happens. You can always put it back if you feel like it.

 

[tb144050]

Well, we turned all the lights out 3 hours ago tonight, and only tv light and low volume "pollutes" the room. They have done some moving around but activity is still at a minimum.

They have been in the cold hide all day, until the lights went out. Now:

Rex moved to the warm hide 30 minutes after "dark" and has laid there since. It's his favorite hide.

Aura has moved to the moist hide in the middle and has laid there since. It's her favorite hide.

Karma has peeked out of the cold hide (her least favorite) 3 times. 2 times she climbed the cold hide to drink the water (sprinkled with non-d3-calc & multivitamin), but returned to the cold hide after each appearance.

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At this point I am not so concerned about Rex and Aura not hunting, because they ate the food I delivered to them last night....so I trust they just aren't hungry enough to hunt.

However, I am still concerned about Karma. She has been pooping that white-gel (shed skin??) for over a week, but now I see no white urates with it............ And Karma refused to eat anything at all last night. Now today she stays on the cold side, which is unusual for her.

 

[tb144050]

Well, just as soon as I say that I am not overly concerned about Aura, she came out of the moist-hide, vomited last night's waxworm & mealworms, and went back to the cold-hide. Looking back at a pic when I got her 3 weeks ago, I think she has lost a little tail weight.

So what's going on? Is she not digesting because she won't go to the hot hide? Did she eat too much last night?


Here is Aura's vomit from 5 minutes ago, and Karma's urate with no poop or white-gel-poop from 30 minutes ago (one of Karma's few trips out of the cold-hide...she left a present..lol)


Here is a pic of Aura on 11/29/2013, probably the same day I brought her home and cleaned/redesigned the tank. (double stress-whammy I am sure)




Closer pic of Aura's tail taken tonight, 13 days after the picture above. I know she hasn't hunted much (if any) but she has shed about 7 days ago, and she ate the waxworm & 5 mealworms last night.



Here is a pic of Aura slowly returning to the moist hide 5 minutes after she hid in the cold-hide-cave when I approached to take the pic of her vomit (above).

 

[Ozy]

If you had Karma, then bought those other 2 and put them together directly, I would be worried about parasites. You should quarantine new geckos for 60 days before putting them with others. Also, I would separate them. You have a male and 2 females with unknown genetics from a pet store. They do not need to breed. Leopard geckos are solitary animals, and don't really like company. I know some people think they might get lonely, but they don't. They like being alone. So I would start by separating them. Then I would get a fecal smear and float done on all 3 to rule out parasites. I would also change the repti-carpet to paper towels or newspaper.

 

[tb144050]

If you had Karma, then bought those other 2 and put them together directly, I would be worried about parasites. You should quarantine new geckos for 60 days before putting them with others. Also, I would separate them. You have a male and 2 females with unknown genetics from a pet store. They do not need to breed. Leopard geckos are solitary animals, and don't really like company. I know some people think they might get lonely, but they don't. They like being alone. So I would start by separating them. Then I would get a fecal smear and float done on all 3 to rule out parasites. I would also change the repti-carpet to paper towels or newspaper.

I don't really have the funds to furnish a separate home or homes for quarantine or even permanently at this time. I have spend over $400 in the last few weeks to provide a perfect home for 3. I have read several times that "1 male and 2 females" can be homed in a 29 gallon long tank...atleast until 1 begins to outgrow others or the male reaches maturity.....then I would need to separate 1 until their age or size is appropriate." So I am out of options here...

I am hoping that they just need to adjust to their new home and get their feeding/digestive schedules adjusted.

Also, how do I determine when Rex meets the "mature/adult" age?? Do I just watch him to see when he tries to "get busy"? j/k