Just got 3 leo's about 3 weeks ago. Have concerns about not eating and behavior.

[tb144050]

Well, Karma made another mushy poop with very little urate (despite her drinking the most water). Here's the pic. I decided I may as well keep a photo journal of their progress of recovery or downward spiral....This journal might be of some minimal use to someone in the future.

Back to the poop....here is the pic: I will tell the story next.




They are all interested in the mealworms, but no one is eating them. Rex was guarding them (and even licking them), and he snapped at Karma when she came to stare at them. Then Aura came to stare at them and he snapped at her too. While I was devising a divider, Karma approached the tray of mealworms again very slowly...She and Rex stared at each other intensely, and then she backed up and pooped and went to hide.


Can anyone guess (from photos in this post or this first aggressive behaviour) if Rex is reaching a "mature" or "sexually mature" age? Or are males always aggressive even as juveniles? I wish I knew how old he was

After removing Rex (male) to a temporary bowl, I gave Aura and Karma opportunity to approach the mealworms individually. Each showed interest but would not eat or hunt a couple crickets.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I switched carpet with a carpet I rinsed last Friday and left to dry outside.
I also used 1:3 bleach/water to wipe the entire inside of the glass.
Then a followup with just water to remove bleach residue.
Then just dry papertowel to dry.
I did not sanitize any decor.

I did not aim to quarantine or cleanse for any specific parasite. If they have something, I am sure they all shared it within the first week. The bleach just seems like a good idea for cleaning the areas fecal/urate most likely touched.

Here are photos of Karma's underbelly and Aura's underbelly:




Karma^^ Not very visible in photo, but larger black area under skin??.



Aura^^ Very definitive black spots or organs??

 

[Poppy243]

Those very definitive black spots on Aura could be fecal matter in her tummy, or just her organs. I see similar looking stuff with Clementine especially, who is probably not much bigger than aura (assuming your hands are somewhat larger than mine, since it seems you are a man as you mentioned your wife lol). When Clem has a poop forming and passing through sometimes I can see dark spots on her belly, and it moves a little. If you can gently press on their bellies and it slides up and down along a path, it may be fecal matter, but no guarantee. It's hard for me to tell. I usually [very] gently squeeze the sides of their bodies going from the head to the tail, and it'll slide down a little with the pressure difference.
I believe the best way to tell if your gecko is sexually mature is by their weight. My Poppy is above 45g now, the fat girl, and should be ready to breed if I was breeding her now. I keep checking for signs of ovulation, to see if I can recognize it. Males should be ready to breed at about the same size, but to me he didn't look like he was big enough to be a sexually mature male.

 

[tb144050]

View attachment 61752

Does Rex look big/old enough to try to mate? I was just reading and one subject led to another... "not eating" >>>>> "brumation??" >>>>>> "don't confuse brumation with breeding season."

The page about "breeding behavior" says the male will nip/snap at the female's tail or neck. That is exactly what he did to Karma (neck nip and tail nip) and to Aura 2 minutes later (side-neck nip before I intervened).

Besides breeding, why would a male nip/bite at 2 females in a tank? They aren't eating, but I thought he was guarding the mealworms. ??

 

[tb144050]

Well, I guess the pic below implies he might be ready. The "breeding" literature I read says something about developing a waxy buildup over his pores. You can see the waxy buildup and also a little better view of the dark mass in Rex's lower abdomen:



But if he is sexually mature, and Aura looks larger/older (especially since males usually grow faster...so she must be older??).........how old is Aura??



Source: The Learning Center - Breeding Leopard Geckos

 

[tb144050]

Here is a pic of Aura's belly if anyone can tell me anything about her "maturity" or the larger black mass toward the lower abdoment. I am hoping the black mass is food being properly digested (not impacted).

****edit: I will have to upload Aura's belly-pic tomorrow....I am "over my quota" ****

The females have refused to eat in front of me since Aura ate 1 waxworm & 5 mealworms...then threw them up the next night. Karma hasn't eaten anything in front of me since a week before then. Karma sees and reacts to a mealworm when she sees it, but she doesn't eat them.



I did the major no-no of leaving crickets in the tank overnight. I can't find about 10 of them. The crickets can crawl up and over the cardboard divider, so I have no idea if Rex or the females may be eating them. For all I know the crickets are just really good at hiding.

However, Rex snapped up 13 mealworms "dropped" to him as soon as they hit the floor. So I guess his appetite may be back. He pooped a somewhat-normal poop last night, but no excrement from Aura or Karma last night or tonight so far.

 

[tb144050]

View attachment 61771
Aura^^ Very definitive black spots or organs??

Since I can't upload the better pic of Aura's belly, I will just link to a previous photo of Aura's belly. Can anyone tell if she is egg-bound, mature, gravid, or whatever the proper word is??

 

[tb144050]

Time for an update...it's been a couple days. Rex had another very wet poop last night, and he ate the last 9 mealworms I had. He still isn't hunting.

Karma is still very active. She is constantly roaming/exploring, and she reacts/focuses toward crickets/mealworms...stares at them... But she wont eat anything.

Aura still sleeps in the cold-side cave almost all the time. She pokes her head out and maybe comes out for water about once or twice per night. I would still like someone to look at her belly (pictured above) and tell me if she is pregnant (or whatever).


I'm still playing this game where I wait to see who is going to eat mealworms. Rex is winning, but Aura and Karma need to start eating something.

 

[Poppy243]

Aura doesn't really look the right size to be breeding yet. And to me Rex doesn't look it either. You need to get a scale to get proper answers to these types of questions! Breeding is based mostly on weight, not as much on age, though they are often closely tied in most situations. I highly recommend getting one. You don't need anything fancy or expensive, just something that can measure in grams. Trust me, it's worth it. I recently saw an ovulating adult female gecko, at an expo, and while there were black spots on the belly of the female, they were nearer the tail and not as distinct as what is seen with Aura. I tend to think it is organs or fecal matter.

If Rex is eating mealworms, then technically he'd be "hunting". All that'd matter to me is that he is consuming mealworms. 9 is a decent enough meal. If a gecko doesn't show normal "hunting" behavior, I wouldn't care so much, as long as he's eating.

I went and looked back at your photos of the three. Comparing them to the relative sizes of the common objects around them... Karma is definitely too small to be breeding. I saw a picture of her next to a gatorade bottle cap. It looked massive next to her. The others didn't seem enough bigger than her to be breeding size either.

Did you ever get a fecal test from the vet? It really seems like they have parasites, many of which are very curable. You just have to know what they have. I feel like they would've been dead already if they had something really serious like crypto, and there are very few chronic diseases that I know of in leos, and if there are any I'm sure they are probably rare. You really need a vet's assessment. A forum can only do so much for you. We can only give you advice on what we think is going on. We can't diagnose illnesses like a vet can.

If you believe one of your geckos may be impacted, put them in a tub of some kind and fill it up with warm water until it is up to their chest. It has to be touching the stomach. It needs to be warm, not scalding hot, but like bathwater you might sit in. Maybe just slightly cooler than that. Let em sit for a while in the warm water, then gently squeeze down their body starting from their front legs and going down to their back legs. Do that a few times and put em back in their cage. When my girls have gotten a little backed up from a big meal this has definitely helped move things along a bit. They won't like it at first, at all. Then they'll learn to tolerate it.

Where is the moist hide located in the cage? I personally feel that it should really be called the "humid" hide instead of the moist hide, and that it should actually be a humid hide, meaning it should be warm. It seems to me, from my various forum observation, that some geckos either don't like the cold, wet "moist" hides, or they like them a little too much and it messes with their digestion because they are too cold all the time.

Also, from my understanding, once males hit sexual maturity, they pretty much become like super horny teenage boys and want to mate frequently. From what I understand, keeping one male and one female together is bad because during breeding season he could over-sex her or something and stress her out big time. I think that if your Rex was sexually mature you might've spotted him sexing the girls up already.

 

[tb144050]

Thanks for the reply. I am waiting on the gram-scale to come in the mail. I postponed fecal testing because it might just be stresses (as mentioned by Dr. Carrottail) and I am seeing some improvements:

1) Rex ate a healthy amount of mealworms that were dropped to him 2 days in a row. He hasn't touched any that I have put in a feed-bowl last night, but he might be full after eating 2 days in a row.

2) Karma is even more active now, and she loves to "focus" on the food. She even licks/bumps mealworms around....just won't eat them.

3) Aura is moving around a bit more, but I think mostly when everyone is asleep and all lights off.

I suspected that Rex may have impregnated Aura because "males grow faster" BUT she is bigger than he is... So if he is "mature enough" to be producing the "wax over his pores" and "biting at the females", I think she might be older than him....and able to get impregnated.

It's about time for Karma to begin shedding again, and I also suspect the possibilty of Aura being pregnant so I put the moist hide back in the middle...so it should be humid too. When I went to sleep 4 hours ago, Karma was in humid (but now on hot side) and Aura was in cold-side (but now in humid.) I originally took the moist out because I thought Aura was staying in it to have medium-warmth and security. For a few days, Aura would move from cold to hot after that....but then she started staying in cold-hide (which is worse than the inadequate belly-heat of the humid-hide).

As mentioned in this post already, Rex didn't eat any mealworms from the dish tonight nor any I "dropped" to him (which worked for 2 days) but he might be full. However, there are about 5 mealworms missing from the females' feedbowl. I sincerely hope that one of them ate 5 mealworms....hopefully 5 mealworms didn't just escape the bowl. If a female ate them, I think it would be Aura, because Karma is "not shy," very active, and stalks prey in front of me....Aura is very scared/shy and will barely come out for water (when I am awake). Hopefully Aura came out and ate in the peace and quite of the middle of the night.


------------------------------------------------

I know a vet visit (an hour away) with fecal samples MIGHT answer my parasite-question (IFFFF the parasites are "actively shedding"), but I am continue to monitor behavior and discuss it here because I hope Drcarrottail is right. When I get home from work, I find myself reading deep into the night and researching all possible causes for each leo's behavior. I understand that a forum cannot definitely diagnose anything, but an experienced owner might be able to confirm the possible suspicions I am having:

1) Aura and Karma too stressed by moving or Rex's "sexual behavior" or maybe just bullying (when I caught him snapping at them).
2) The white spots on Aura's stomach being eggs?
3) Aura being old enough for eggs (based on being larger than Rex and he is mature)
4) And not quite sure why Karma would be "stalking/licking" food but not eating it.

For now, three 2-hour round-trips to a vet to do 3 fecal tests on all 3 leo's (totalling $150+ plus gas) will have to wait until I see more definitive "proof of unhealth".....After all, I am still researching and considering all natural stresses as DrCarrotTail mentioned is possible.

---------------
(btw...I know size isn't as accurate at weight, but:

Aura is about 4" long in body with 2.5" tail which is about .5" wide. She also has a distinct shape where he rear hips and lower abdoment are quite wider than her chest.

Rex is about 4.25" long in body with a 2.5" tail which is about .4" wide. He looks slender (compared to Aura).

And the "baby" Karma, is about 3.5" long, with a 2.25" tail. Her build is slender like Rex's...not plump lower abdomen like Aura's.)

 

[tb144050]

I think that if your Rex was sexually mature you might've spotted him sexing the girls up already.

I don't know what was going on in the middle of the night or before I bought them and took them home, but I put in a divider a couple of nights ago when I first saw Rex biting at the girls. Possibly bullying when they approached the foodbowl (he wasn't eating but was standing by)....or possibly he was "in the mood" and I interrupted his mating attempts on both of them. They have been divided since then. The next day I was researching "biting" and found the article about "mating" and then I checked/found Rex's "wax". :O

 

[tb144050]

Karma, Aura, and Rex (Top to bottom)...I was cleaning their tank. :0
View attachment 61701

To help put them in scale: Rex's head (skull..not including neck) is about 1" front to back. Aura's head is about the same 1" and her total body is slightly longer than Rex. Karma's (youngest) head is about .75".

 

[Poppy243]

I have had an experience with my gecko where my first one didn't want to eat out of the bowl for some reason. She ignored them, I think because they weren't squirmy enough for her, and would only eat a couple. I had previously cleaned out a tub I'd been using for storing food in my dorm room to use to do the hot water baths, so I decided to put her in there and drop the mealworms in there. They were squirmy and ran around and they caught her attention. There were a few times she ate around 20 worms! That's been a while ago, she's on a diet now, she recently developed possible fat pockets behind her front legs lol. She's a fat girl! She's reached breeding size last I checked. Anyway, maybe they are not showing much interest because they are not "squirmy" enough in the bowl. It would be worth a shot to pull one out of the cage at a time and drop the worms loose in a tub and see how they eat. From past posts it sounds like the girls are mildly interested but not interested enough to eat. They may also have felt threatened by the bullying Rex. The fact that he was near the food bowl and was nipping at them makes me think he was bullying them at that moment. Also the fact that you did not mention him making a move to mount them, though perhaps you removed him before he could and I missed that part.

Also, it sounds like you got them from a large chain pet store? The leos I've seen (at both main national chains in my area) have not been breeding size. Pretty decent size, but they were maybe a little bigger than my little Enigma girl, who is not breeding size. Definitely smaller than my Poppy, who was above 45g last time I checked her weight. I'm going to weigh her again in a bit here, I'm curious now!

 

[Poppy243]

Okay, instead of studying for my finals I did something to help you out with your sizing questions. I weighed both my geckos and measured them with a ruler. I took photos of the measurements, which while technically are approximate because they wouldn't sit straight, will give a good visual of different sized geckos (in length) vs their weight. Yay procrastination! Hopefully this helps you a little! Remember, though, this is for my geckos. This doesn't necessarily apply to all geckos, but my geckos are pretty typical, healthy geckos. Poppy does have fat pockets behind her front legs that you may see in the photos but she's on a strict diet and I'm working to get rid of them as quickly as possible in as healthy a way as possible. I also took pictures of them side-by-side and the big one stretched out as much as possible in my boyfriend's hand so you can see relative size comparison, which I will add at the end.
Poppy (f, 49.5g)

The lighting looks a little odd in this photo as I'm creating this. Also I realized her tail was hanging off the notebook a little bit. She is pretty solidly 8" long, age unknown

For some reason the forum isn't letting me upload the measurement pic of Clementine. She is just over 5 months, 34.2g, 6.5-7". She had an incident with a shed and the tip of her tail so her tail is slightly shorter than originally, but not enough to make a huge difference.

Here are the girls side by side, and Poppy alone.



I did a little bit of looking around on the interwebs, and there are a lot of different opinions on when they reach sexual maturity. I know that typical breeding size for a leopard gecko in the breeding industry is above 45g, but I guess it is possible that sexual maturity is actually reached before the recommended breeding size.

 

[tb144050]

Sorry I disrupted your studying. But thank you so much for the "perspective" of approximate size vs. weight.

yeah...I interfered before Rex could possibly have time to mount Karma. Then while I was devising a divider to install, Aura poked her head out of the cold-cave (not even looking in the direction of Rex or the fooddish.) Rex walked slowly to her and nipped at her so I again interrupted and this time I took him out until I was finished installing the divider. It's a 50/50 chance because we will never know his intentions (unless I put him with them again, but I am pretty sure that he will try because of his "waxy pores.")

--------------------------------------------------
Update: Rex still hasn't eaten any of the mealworms that I put in his tray, but he might be full from eating 2 nights in a row.

The females' food bowl was missing 12 mealworms when I got off work today. I don't see any mealworms loose, and I don't think they escaped the dish. I don't want to stress the females by removing all the hides to search for loose mealworms.

And there is fresh poop on the female side when I got home from shopping (after work today).

I guess I will wait and see. Thanks again. Hopefully Aura isn't pregnant if she is indeed too young to have healthy clutches.

 

[Poppy243]

Naw, it's not your fault, I'm a major procrastinator. It was bound to happen anyway, if not here than elsewhere lol. At least I did something that was helpful rather than just messed around ^.^
Mealworms shouldn't be able to get out of a dish that is smooth inside and have sides approximately a half-inch tall. If you picked up one of those ceramic dishes from the pet store like I did, they probably didn't escape. Fresh poop is a good sign against impaction, but since you've had abnormal poops, you need to watch more for the poops to become more normal, as I'm sure you are already doing.
I don't know much about gravid geckos, but I'd definitely look up pics of gravid geckos and compare over time to Aura, just to make sure. More than likely, as she is a virgin animal, she would have very few good eggs, if any at all. The concern would be more that she stays healthy if she is indeed gravid, especially with the trouble she has had eating and if she is too young and small to be able to keep up her weight while carrying the eggs. I'm not totally convinced she's gravid though. I can't fully explain it, but I just don't really think she is, from what I've seen. I'd just keep an eye on her.

Hopefully your geckos start to feel better soon!

 

[tb144050]

Yeah, I am definitely keeping an eye on them and their poops (even taking pics and notes on what they ate and what supplementation.) Until they get on a normal feeding schedule, I am having to take notes to make sure I am rotating Cal, Cal-d3, and MultiV.

I posted a pic of Aura's belly in the "Breeding" forum just for opinions. I hope she isn't in danger.

I believe Aura (the possibly pregnant one) finally came out of hiding and ate 12 mealworms last night from the dish. And while I was in the shower tonight (an hour after I turned out the day-light), my wife said Aura came out of the cave and wandered to the corner. In that corner I found a massive well-shaped poop, so I think that was Aura's first food (that she kept down) in almost 2 weeks and 1st poop in about a week.

 

[Poppy243]

That's good news about the poop! Did you check Aura's belly again to see if the black spots were still there? That'll help in determining if they were poop or if they were organs or if they are something else. She seems to be getting better. How are the other two? Any signs of improvement? You know, if Aura is bigger than Karma, maybe Karma is a little intimidated at the food bowl, even if Aura isn't there to bully her. Have you tried separating Karma and attempting to feed her? It might be worth a shot to see if she will eat. Or she may just not be interested in the worms if they aren't squirming. That happened with Poppy. She wouldn't really eat from the bowl. I mentioned earlier, I started putting her in a little sterilite-type tub and dropping the mealworms loose in there so they had room to move around and look tempting. I think the bowl I had them in was too small for them to move and look interesting.

 

[tb144050]

I haven't looked at Aura's belly since then. This morning there are 9 mealies missing from the female dish and 9 mealies missing from Rex's (male) dish. I am not searching for escaped mealies or handling aura until it is time to clean the tank. It's part of my "anti-stress" therapy.

Now that the moist-hide is back, Aura and sometimes Karma are spending time in it. And coincidentally with the missing mealworms and "nice-poop", I have also seen Aura in the warm-hide (which is rare). Karma is still way more active than Aura....Karma roams ALOT, investigates/stalks food, and I have even see her bite at the mealies, but by the time I slowly approach the tank, I cant tell if she ate one or not.

 

[tb144050]

Well, Karma is back to hunting crickets, so that's good.

However, I still haven't confirmed that Aura is eating anything..until tonight. I dropped an irresistable waxworm in front of her, and she snagged it after 30seconds. But 3 hours later, she came out from the warm hide and threw it up.

Here is a pic of what I thought may have been Aura's poop, but it was probably Karma that has been eating and made this healthy poop:
**edit: well apparently I am "over my quota" even though I don't think I have uploaded anything recently?? If you really care to see it, I will try to upload it later**

Anyway, it had 1/4" of urate, 1/8" of yellow, and about 1/2" of feces. Given Aura's history last week of eating & vomiting, I am going to guess that Karma is the only one eating and that Karma finally produced an impressive by-product. I didn't think it was Karma because all I saw her do was stalk and play with her food, but never ate.....so I was thinking it was Aura that ate in the middle of the night. Now I don't have any idea which one is eating mealies in the middle of the night, except that Aura ate 1 waxworm and vomited...so I don't think it is her.

And of course, Aura is spending alot of time in the moist-hide again, but she does come out and go to the hot and cold hide (usually cold), and at night when the TV is off...she even lays in the floor on top of the UTH and indirectly under the 50watt red heatbulb. :0
.................................

I have been as unstressful as I can be with her, but I am so worried. Karma ate her waxworm, and even tried to sneak toward Aura's worm, but i gently put my hand in front of her and she shy-ed away.

--------------------------------------

p.s. Sorry if I repeated anything. It is 3am and I am tired. I went back to add a few details to the first paragraph and I may have typed in things I already typed in the rest of the post. I gotta go to sleep and get up in 4 hours, so I will assume that it is better to give too much info than too little.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

You're only given like 2mb of photo storaage on the GF server. I find the best way to add lots of photos is to use an online service like photobucket and link them (I'm over my quota too!) Only way to get below your quota is to delete some of the images you've posted previously or make them smaller.

Glad Karma seem to be doing well! The only variable I can see is that Aura might be stressed or bullied by the other gecko somehow or that your temps or light need tweaking. The temps and light seem like a long shot since your other gecko is doing well in the same enclosure. If she were mine, I would separate her just to be able to tell 100% if she is eating and pooping and to see if the peace and quiet of living alone helps but I know you've said that's not a possibility so I'm out of suggestions. I would just continue to offer her food and try to monitor her weight and excretion as best you can.