Just got 3 leo's about 3 weeks ago. Have concerns about not eating and behavior.

[tb144050]

Aura just came out and "made diarhea-poopy" and went into the cold-hide again. I will post the stool photos from 2 nights ago:


Karma: white-gel, very little urate


Rex: adequate feces, but kinda mushy

Aura, "nice form" feces..looks soft..lol

Then I will post Aura's diahrea from tonight (5 minutes ago now...then she went in the cold-hide and will probably return to the moist-hide), Karma's little urate earlier tonight is posted above, and Rex has been sleeping in the cold-then-hot hides all day/night (as mentioned above) but I think he slipped out and went-potty in front of the hot-hide 10 minutes ago while I was typing this post.


Aura's diarhea tonight


Rex??, tonight.

Any experts on feces? Rex's look "formed", Karma's are white (or nothing because she hasn't eaten), and Aura's was ok last night and vomit/diarhea/stay-away-from-hot-hide tonight. Also, is it relevant that Aura and Rex each ate 1 waxworm last night?

 

[tb144050]

Also, I just did what I didn't want to do. I changed their habitat just a little..hopefully it won't stress them too much. I partially uncovered the moist hide, and I moved the leaves to block light to the warm and warmer dry-hides.

I don't want "security" to be the reason *aura* is staying at the back of the moist hide with 78F ambient air temp inside. I want her to go to the warm hides or cool hides as needed. I hope this gets her digestion back on track. I assume staying at 1 ambient temp isn't good for her.

 

[tb144050]

She left the moist-hide for 1minute after I took the lid off completely. She went to the cold-hide, looked inside, then came right back, climbed into the moist-hide, and went to sleep. She, and the others, don't seem to lose any sleep because of dim room lighting and/or red reptile ZooMed night bulbs.

Maybe she isn't in there for security?? Just to keep hydrated and/or keep a steady body temp??

I will watch her tomorrow to see where she hides in the daytime (with no cover on the moist-hide).

 

[tb144050]

I moved Aura from the moist hide to the warmer box-hide (between stairs and moist-hide)....and I moved Karma from the cold-hide (where she had been all day/night) to under the hot-hide stairs....before I went to sleep 4 hours ago.

I woke up just now and Aura is still under the warmer box-hide and Karma is still under the hot-hide stairs. Karma, who came out and urated with no poop last night, came out a minute ago and dropped a diarhea in front of the hot-hide stairs and returned under the stairs.



As far as I know, Rex hasn't left the hot-hide stairs last night. So this makes 5/6 geckos that I have gotten from this store sickly or completely stick-tail on arrival (before I knew to avoid buying stick-tail). The only 1 seemingly healthy is my wife's very young juvenile that I got on truck-delivery day. He eats 12 crickets/day easily in his 10gal setup. But we have only had him about 1 week...these signs didn't show up in these 3 for about 2 weeks.

 

[tb144050]

By the way, since I am pretty sure all three are sick with a contagious & fatal disease, I am probably going to be looking for:

1) An absolute way to kill all parasites in the tank, hides, etc.
2) A gecko vendor who guarantees that their geckos don't carry even the dormant asymptomatic parasites.



I am especially fond of these 3, and this sucks, but I am not going to be paying a vet to tell me that they are dying or need a life of meticulous care like chemo...and even then they won't be the healthy lively pets that I wanted. I am trying to decide now if I should wait and monitor their health, or return them now for a refund.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

I would agree with separating the one you think it sick. The stress of cage mates could make it worse and she could pass whatever she has to the other two, assuming it hasn't been passed already. I would just go grab a 10 gallon, a UTH and a dimmer - those will cost you like $40 and then you can put paper towels and cardboard hides in it for free. I even put a $1 6-qt sterilite bin in my 10 gallon to quarantine baby geckos. This way there is no stress caused by an enclosure that is too big and when they are done with quarantine I just stick the bin into my rack so very little moving stress.

Throwing up food can be normal if it happens once. If it happens repeatedly then I would worry. Your gecko may have just overeaten. I would stick with feeding straight mealworms for a week or two and see if her poo starts looking normal. The white could be due to eating calcium and the much could be due to waxworms but it also could be more sinister. I might also call around and see if there is a vet in your area that knows reptiles and would do a fecal to see if there are parasites in play. Picking up a small gram scale may also be a good idea to monitor their weight (this is super important if you keep more than one gecko in a cage). The one I use is $8 on amazon.

Bright side is you are being proactive and asking questions and seeking help before your geckos are too thin. Lots of times people wait for them to look sick before seeking help and when they do it's too late. I'm sure you'll get to the root of the issue soon!

 

[tb144050]

By now, especially since they all came on the same truck..I just bought at different times, I am sure all three would be contagious with something/parasites if one had it. They snuggle with each other in their shared-favorite hides: Rex & Karma (warm hides); Karma & Aura (moist hide). The added expenses of vet visits and extra heaters&tanks are unacceptable if they are doomed and should be euthanized. I can't take on the financial burdon of infected-pets that the store sells. I will be returning them soon if they don't clear up naturally.

Were you referring to Karma's white-gel poop when you said it may be calcium? That went on for atleast a week after atleast 1 shed but with no eating food. Last night (pictured above), it was feces but looks like the beginning of diarhea.

So what is likely to be occuring based on the feces pictured in the posts above? All three have had diarhea in the last week. Rex and Aura ate a wax worm 2 nights ago? Does that cause their mushy diarhea-looking feces?

Also, is there a 100% sure fire way to disinfect this tank/equipment before I purchase new juveniles?

and is there a reptile breeder who guarantees absolutely healthy Leo's?

 

[tb144050]

And yet another "symptom" of parasites: "malodorous stools". I didn't mention it because I thought a bad odor might be somewhat normal, but it smelled horrible when I was cleaning their stools last night.

I called and found a local vet that can do a fecal-test (poop-smear..lol) and she recommends UVB light to ensure proper metabolism. At this point, I don't think it can hurt any worse.

My terrarium kit was designed for bearded dragons so it came with UVB lighting (and lower wattage bulbs I replaced). I'm going to turn on UVB during daytime lighting.

I called the chain PetS(tore) to talk to them about returning them if fecal testing shows Crypto. They said "None of our reptiles are sick up here so there shouldn't be an issue." I said, "Really? Not even the two that I saw the other day with 'stick-tail' and the two that we have personally returned because they refused to eat and were almost 'stick-tail?'" "No. Ours are fine" "Ok, so what do we do if I pay for testing and find out that they are infected with a fatal parasite?" "We have a 14-day return policy on pets."

Today is day 13 for Aura & Rex and the 20gallon terrerium and supplies, so I guess I have had Karma for about 20days.

I guess I have tonight to decide what to do. I am a germophobe and I really hate the idea of putting new geckos (especially expensive special order healthy geckos) into a terrerium that may still be infected after sanitation. Ideas on 100% sanitation??

 

[DrCarrotTail]

I don't think crypto is as prevalent as many folks make it. I think a more obvious issue would be pinworms, husbandry or something easily treatable like that. The geckos you have aren't incredibly young or thin so it would seem strange to me that an issue that problematic would pop up now rather than earlier in their lives.

Leos do not need UVB. I have owned and kept leos for 10+ years and they have never gotten more light than the indirect light from lamps and windows in the room and have never had a vitamin issue with any (of course that I know of!) I would make sure that the vet that you found is a reptile specialist and/or has experience working with leopard geckos. I don't think you can see crypto from a fecal smear or float but there is an assay that can be done by a lab. Other parasites, however, are fairly easy to see from either type of fecal and are pretty easy to get rid of.

Sorry you're having so much trouble with them! I hope you find a solution that helps you and the geckos!

 

[tb144050]

She told me she isn't a reptile specialist. She had to consult her "material" and call me back. She said it is $15 for a basic fecal-test in-house or they can send it off for better diagnostic-test if the in-house test doesn't find any issue.

All I know at this point is that they have shared the same home, the pets(tore) tank, "stick-tails" have been in the tank recently (including our first 2 returns, stick-tails, that were put back into general population), and now these 3 have the following conditions:

-minimal activity, even at night
-all 3 won't hunt
-1 won't eat if you put it right in front of her
-1 vomit (possible overeating)
-all three have unstable excrememts (mushy to diarrhea feces, random amounts of urates, and 1 had a week of white-gel excrements)
-"malodorous stool"

You know all my temps, minimal handling, and habitat conditions. I just want a clean tank with healthy pets. That's why I've spent probably $400+ building a meticulous home with perfect temps, decor, food, supplies to gutload/store crickets, and supplies I bought online that haven't even arrived yet (Temp-gun & 5pounds of non-d3 calcium).

I guess my options are to wait and see if these 3 recover from a random illness, start by spending $50+ for basic fecal tests, or try to return them, sanitize all equipment/tank, and special order healthy Leo's. I want a colony of 3, including 1 male I can separate at maturity to a separate tank later.

Is there even a way to perfectly sanitize a tank/equipment that has been exposed to parasites? And is there a breeder that guarantees healthy Leo's?

 

[DrCarrotTail]

For 95% of all diseases and parasites a good soak in bleach or ammonia will work to sanitize we work as sanitizers. For crypto there is no 100% method to sanitize. Most breeders offer a 14 day health guarantee but most (myself included) will not ensure health beyond that as many issues can arise from improper housing, feeding, diseases currently owned animals have, etc.

I can't tell you 100% either way if the animals are healthy or not. They may just be stressed out and adapting to new conditions or not hungry or they may be sick or have something else wrong with them. I'm only speaking from experience and what I would do in your shoes. If you're that worried about them it may not be a bad idea to return them. Only you know what's best for your peace of mind and desires.

 

[tb144050]

If you think the "malodorous diarrhea" and lack of hunting might seriously be from stress (or some other non-fatal temporary illness), then I will wait and provide them the best home-care I can. Hopefully I won't be watching them die one-by-one.

If so, I want to try again, 1 gecko at a time using a quarantine method 3 months apart (??). I will research the most effective tank-cleaning procedures. If these 3 pass away, I can fill this tank with ______ chemical and leave it filled for months (while I use a new tank for "quarantine") if that will help eradicate a higher % of parasites from this tank. (??)

 

[tb144050]

***just an update on their behavior today***

Karma (who has refused to eat anything in over a week): is moving from warm to cold routinely (as I would amateurishly expect). She is very active today....touring the terrarium more than the other 2 combined today. She even stops to lay under the day or night heatlamps and watches the TV with us....or just randomly pokes her head out of a hide to watch us or the TV. It's very interesting that she has this much energy spontaneously after a week of warm+moist hiding and no-eating. She has also increased her use of the calcium(no-d3)+multivitamin-sprinkled water hole.

Aura is still primarily staying in the cold-dark-hide but she occasionally very cautiously ventures out and goes to the warm-hide. She was seen twice using the sprinkled-waterhole. She seems like she might be a little tired, but she is absolutely scared/skittish. The only time I have seen her run (without a hand in the tank) is when my wife shook the ice in her cup......Aura darted across the tank to the coldside and hid under the leaves..them she slowly ventured back into the cold-hide.

Rex has primarily stayed in the cold-hide today and the warm hides tonight, but he often wandered half of the times that Karma was wandering.

------------
Karma: still refuses hunting, crickets, mealworms, and waxworm.
Aura: seems too tired or too scared to eat anything or hunt.
Rex: ate about 4 mealworms that I dropped to him, but lost interest when I tried to feed Karma&Aura. After that, he refused to eat mealworms, a waxworm, a de-legged cricket running in the feed dish (right in front of him) and obviously still refused to hunt the crickets. No one else has eaten from the dish either. I have only looked at Rex's belly, but it seems to have a slightly darker spot under the abdobem about half the size of a US dime (see pic below).

--------------------------

No one has pooped, urated, or vomited tonight (so far).
As we speak, Karma has come out and laid down at the corner of the tank staring at me (like she does when she isn't watching TV..lol)





She was asleep, using the rock as a pillow, but she heard me get up.



Karma at the sprinkled-water dish. She has supersensitive hearing and reacts but doesn't retreat immediately.


Aura at the sprinkled-water dish. She is still the "plumpest/healthiest-looking" of them all. None are stick-tail at this time. I need to buy a scale and I will soon.


Rex's belly is the only one I have inspected. I really don't even know what I am looking at anyway. If you can see the darker spot of the abdomen, is that "normal"? **edit: the darker spot isn't visible in the photo. It is barely visible under the skin when viewing first hand. Would the "black stomach" of a serious condition be visible in the photo-lighting above, or just barely visible under the skin?

--------------------------
I guess I have decided to keep them all and hope for the best. If there is a fatal parasite among them, then I will be attempting a sanitation/desication using any/all available methods to me.

 

[tb144050]

Oh look!! Rex got up to come see me...nope...watching tv??...nope...pooping on Karma's nap-rock by my corner. Jealous much? still looks soft, runny, and no urates with it. I haven't seen him drink all day (or ever really). There is a water dish right in front of the moist hide but he walks through it or around it without stopping.

 

[tb144050]

^^courtesy of Rex...I'm sure Karma will love the aroma when she naps there next time. That's the spot Karma lays when she comes out to stare at me. lol



And what do ya know..Rex does visit ye ol' watering hole...and he stayed there over 5 minutes quenching his thirst..lol

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Dark spot is a gall bladder. The rest are other organs. Once leos become familiar with their environment they tend to sleep lots. Mine will sit in their hides for days at a time and only seem to venture out when they're hungry or uncomfortable. Glad yours are exploring exploring their new home!

This is the scale I picked up and use: Amazon.com: American Weigh Signature Series Silver/Black AWS-100 Digital Pocket Scale, 100 by 0.01 G: Kitchen & Dining a bit small but it works well with a deli cup on it for leos. I have a bigger one for snakes and such as it's hard to weigh anything over 100g on the little one.

 

[tb144050]

Once leos become familiar with their environment they tend to sleep lots. Mine will sit in their hides for days at a time and only seem to venture out when they're hungry or uncomfortable. Glad yours are exploring exploring their new home!

I really hope they aren't sick. They are venturing more.

Rex ventures with Karma sometimes and will move to all 3 hides (except moist). Karma ventures alot and will rarely go to the cold hide but she wasn't going at all before. Aura will move to the new warm-box-hide rarely now. No one stays in the moist-hide since I took the lid off of it. I will re-institute the moist-hide if they begin a shedcycle, but for now I want them drinking the "koolaid" (sprinkled-water) and moving from hot to cold (instead of staying at one moderate temp).

I will be much happier when they start eating regularly again. I'd be ecstatic if they hunted crickets again. When I woke up this morning, 1 mealworm was missing off the plastic feed tray....Rex was licking a few of them but I bet the 1 missing mealworm just escaped the tray and I couldn't find it.

 

[tb144050]

Oh, and I was recording video of Aura doing her signature tail-dance (she has done a few times when she first came home) while in a hunting/stalking stance. He tail moved like a dancing cobra to the snakecharmer's flute....except her tail was fast/excited. And then my wife shook her ice in her cup, and Aura RANNN to the leaves on the cold side. I've never seen other gecko's do a tail-dance like that and I have never seen a gecko RUN (in my 3 weeks of stalking them...lol). I have video that I will try to post later of the tail-dance.

 

[Poppy243]

How often are you feeding the waxworms? From what I understand, waxworms have a high fat content and should only be fed occasionally, mostly as treats. I didn't note the dates of the update posts, there were quite a few of them (which is good, you are keeping an eye on them!), but if you are feeding waxworms more than once a week, that could potentially cause a little bit of issues with the stool, because of all the fat.
Concerning the dark spot you mentioned, I have noticed that occasionally I can see the stool inside my gecko's stomach if they haven't passed it yet. Normally it's just the organs though, like Lisa said.
Also, you asked about breeders that "guarantee" health. No breeder can completely guarantee the health of any animal, though if something comes up with the animal soon after buying they will usually do something to fix the situation, whether it be refund, exchanging, or helping get the animal better. However, in a way they do somewhat "guarantee" the health of the animal, though not explicitly, because if they did have illness in their animals, they would lose potential income. Especially with a disease like crypto that has no known cure.
i've had my geckos run like you mentioned, though not necessarily at a sound like that. I had my first try to run right out of my hands the first time I held her! Bout near gave me a heart attack! Fortunately she didn't fall far or get hurt from the fall. The exploration and movement is a good sign! Geckos are naturally nocturnal so you may mostly see them sleeping, though they do somewhat adjust to your schedule. I've seen mine sleeping often. My little one actually snuggled up to my friend's side just inside her jacket and fell asleep, not even waking up when they got a little overexcited at the video game they were playing.
To me it sounds like your geckos are starting to adjust a little bit since they've been getting more active. I'd just turn those lights off at night, get those fecal exams if the nasty stool persists, get the scale, and keep an eye on them like you have been doing. Also, I'd probably cut out the waxworms for a while, just to take that fat factor out of the equation. Geckos are hardy little creatures, as long as it's not a parasite they should definitely pull through. If you feel like separating them when they get bigger, to avoid any breeding, you could either get a new cage (10gal is fine for the guy) or rearrange the cage and fit a divider in it to divide it. Just make sure the girls get approx 2/3 of the cage if you divide it, since there will be 2 of them.

 

[tb144050]

After a week of no one hunting, I fed 1 waxworm to each, but: karma would not eat it (or anything); Aura threw up the wad pictured above during the next night. Aura's wad looks like the waxworm and the 4 or 5 mealworms she ate. I was just trying to test their appetite.

I'll be using a 10gal for the male when/if that time comes. Or I will find out more about a local petstore that advertises my exact 20gal terrerium for $39.95. It is a non-chain local store; I found their website, but their phone number doesn't work