NEW MORPH?!?!

[KelliH]

Stripe X Normal = Normal Het Stripe
Normal Het Stripe X Normal Het Stripe = approx 25% Stripe
Stripe X Het Stripe = 50% Stripe

I've used both bold stripes and red stripes and gotten the same results.

I would like to know what more "proof" I can provide? Also, I would like to know what "proof" Chad and Frank have that stripes are "polygenic"? Proof would be the results of several years of breeding stripes and their offspring together. Because I really wish these people that have these so called polygenic stripes would just come out and show some proof of that instead of just saying it! LOL

 

[Franks_Geckos]

Kelli,
I didn't say I have any proof one way or the other, I simply stated what I believe. Simply putting a recessive gene tag on something and stating probability doesn't convince me of anything otherwise. I believe you are honest and are stating that your results are in line with what one would expect to see from a recessive trait. What are your results with Jungles? Can you prove or do you believe that they are related to stripes? Are Bold Stripes, regular stripes and Red Stripes all separarate recessive genes? That is what I would like to know. I didn't reply to Chad's post to offend you or anyone else, so if you took it personally, I apologize, however, unless I saw someone provide actual numbers that fall in line with the percentages you provided, I would be no more convinced that any pattern gene except for Blizzard, Ray Hines Hypo, and Patternless are true recessives. Trust me, I would love to be convinced that I can breed my jungles together and produce 100% jungles, or do the same with bold stripes, red stripes, etc... I just haven't seen enough people doing it or proving it with numbers, pictures or otherwise to personally convince me. This is why MY OPINION (what I believe) is that Polygenic traits are related to pattern in general. Furthermore, I don't think anyone should take anyone else's word regarding pattern genetics as the bible without hatching their own to begin with and prove it to themselves, which is why I was clear in saying I "somewhat" agree with Chad. Re-read my post and you will see what is stated are opinions. Just because someone doesn't believe what you believe should not be cause for anyone to start getting defensive like someone was personally attacking you removing credibility from your findings. I would really like it if you made a believer out of me by answering the questions about the relationship between jungles, bold stripes, and red stripes with some personal results from crosses of these. I work with jungles and would be very interested in working with Red Stripes and Bold Stripes if they were simple recessives like Albinos or even Co-Dom recessives.

 

[Jeanne]

Stripe X Normal = Normal Het Stripe
Normal Het Stripe X Normal Het Stripe = approx 25% Stripe
Stripe X Het Stripe = 50% Stripe

I've used both bold stripes and red stripes and gotten the same results.

I would like to know what more "proof" I can provide? Also, I would like to know what "proof" Chad and Frank have that stripes are "polygenic"? Proof would be the results of several years of breeding stripes and their offspring together. Because I really wish these people that have these so called polygenic stripes would just come out and show some proof of that instead of just saying it! LOL

Thanks Kelli!

Although I have not been breeding them for years, any "Het" Stripe that I have received from Kelli did produce Striped babies as stated above.

 

[Jeanne]

Hey Frank, I also meant to say, that I don't beleive Kelli was attacking you in any way, she was just stating her findings

 

[Franks_Geckos]

I don't believe or would like to believe she wasn't too
I just like this topic and have been very curious about it for a couple of years now. I wish I had some of my own bold or red stripes to work with an generate some data myself.

 

[BalloonzForU]

What I'd like to know is if the different stripes are compatable with each other?

 

[KelliH]

Hey Frank, I am really sorry you took my post the way you did. I am not not attacking you or anyone, just stating my opinions on the subject, which are based on several years of breeding stripes. I was being a little "tongue in cheek" so to speak too. I've had this same discussion over the past couple of years several times, and it always seems that the ones that claim stripes are not recessive have not even bred them long enough to know, and admittedly it does amuse me (and irritate me sometimes LOL).

I don't just stick a recessive tag on a particular trait, I actually work for a few years to prove or disprove my hypothesis, because I think it is wrong to sell an animal as a "het" for something when you really are not sure how the gene is inherited.

I agree that you shouldn't just take someone's word for things. Already we have learned some things this year about Aptors and Raptors, as well as line bred snows, that were contridictory to what we all thought going by how those were marketed. I encourage everybody to do what I have done (breed stripes to normals, breed normal looking het offspring to each other). That way we might not have this same discussion every year.

As far as red stripes go, I have found that they work the same as bold stripes, essentially they are just a tangerine stripe. The jungle trait I am not sure on, as I have focused on the stripes with my Bell projects and have not kept good records with regards to jungles. It seems that the jungle trait does pop out of striped bloodlines a lot though. Maybe somebody else can chime in on jungles.

 

[nwheat]

I'd love to know just what is going on with jungles / stripes as well. From what I'd read before, I thought that stripes & jungles were connected and were polygenic, but perhaps there is some other kind of connection between the two (jungle & stripe). This is my first year breeding stripes, so far my het stripe Bell male, Basil, has produced some beautiful striped babies with both his red stripe and bold stripe girlfriends!

 

[KelliH]

This is my first year breeding stripes, so far my het stripe Bell male, Basil, has produced some beautiful striped babies with both his red stripe and bold stripe girlfriends!

That's great news Nancy, I am glad Basil is doing his job so well!

 

[Grinning Geckos]

I may just do that next year Kelli! Aurora (as far as I'm aware) is simply a high yellow with a very slightly abberant pattern - she's as normal as I've got. I'll think about breeding her to Hayden and see what happens from there!

I agree, if enough people do it, then maybe we can get a solid answer that everyone can accept.

 

[marula]

...kelly...do you think the gene stripe in recessive in general or is something like hine hypo? (only a special kind of stripe bloodline are recessive?)...i know..you probably don't know about others bloodline..but what do you think about?

 

[Sally Salamander]

Two things

1) I just talked to Powergeckos - who once had the Stripe market cornered - and he said they are recessive. He had those stripes. They were remarkable - as is the man called Powergeckos.

2) I haven't read anybody say it for awhile - but those Diablo's ROCK. Wow - what a great combo of cool and creepy!

I met RT down in Texas when I was hanging out with Mongo, chasing Sherriff Bart, and he is a terrific guy. Cut him some slack. (You all secretly want to be him anyway)

 

[Jeanne]

They were remarkable - as is the man called Powergeckos.

Sounds like someone has the "HOTS" for Monte at Powergeckos, you had better be careful, Mongo may get jealous!

 

[Sally Salamander]

Mongo doesn't need to know....

 

[chad e]

kelli, a few questions about your recessive stripes...

first off, High Quality Reptiles (the originator of the red stripe morph, for those who don't know) stated that his morph was linebred (polygenic). so when did this get proven as a recessive gene?

second, in the breedings that you did with with your bold stripes, were there pattern variations or did you only produce banded het. for stripes, bandeds, and stripes?

you did mention you have seen jungles pop out of some stripe lines. were they the same lines you claim to be recessive and would the presence of various phenotypes in your findings prove at least that those lines are a form of dominance and not a recessive gene afterall?

i have only been breeding leopard geckos for about four years now but that doesnt make my questions any less valid.

i did breed an albino stripe to an albino jungle and produced many variations, including stripes. i bred the same jungle albino male to a banded albino and produced varied offspring as well. thats where my "hunch" comes from. maybe i was working with different lines than you. all three of my animals came from Ron Tremper.

so..

bold stripe X bold stripe = 100% bold stripe
bold stripe X banded = 100% banded het. for bold stripe
het for bold stripe X het for bold stripe= 25% banded, 25% bold stripe and 50% banded het for bold stripe????

and the same rings true for red stripes? because thats how a simple recessive mutation works.

for me to be convinced i would need to see two banded animals, het for stripe. i would also need to see all of thier progeny and anything not striped would have to be banded. anything in between would indicate to me it is not a simple recessive mutation.

and for the record, i'm not trying to offend or discredit anyone. i just want to know. i'm motivated by nothing more than a thirst for knowledge.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

I myself started (in 2004)this quest to out how stipes work, I originally went by what was thrown around by everyone at the time, even in books, that Stripe was recessive. OK So I had 'proven recessive' stripes, and assumed reverse stripe was its own recessive trait. Bred the two together and not one banded 'double het' was created. In fact I hatched non-albino Aptors, I did not know it at the time exactly what they were. But they prove to be the same and even produce Eclipse/Raptor

Next came the Aptor, a 'proven recessive' "Patternless" morph, I bred it to my Stripes again, and not one banded gecko was created. This told me that all of these patterns work together, and there is no single gene for each. I do not even think the Eclipse, is a single recessive gene. Any of them will act recessive though, its really too much to figure out completely IMO.

How many ways must I say it?? Someone listen please LOL

 

[Franks_Geckos]

I agree

Dan, I have to agree with you. I have never been convinced that any jungle or stripe (regardless of what "line" or breeder produced them) is recessive. I have only worked with jungles myself, but my findings are documented and the notion that it is recessive was thrown out the window in 2004 for me. Also, the striped tails that some of my jungles (specifically one of my Rainwater Jungle Albino) have is the same as the stripe tails on stripes I see. Another of my females has a stripe body pattern with a more classic jungle tail. I have seen people call that a stripe as well, but I am not inclined to do so. I think a stripe must have a striped tail AND a striped body pattern to be a stripe, otherwise it is a jungle. If it has a banded tail and a non-banded body, it is just an abberant, not even a jungle. I believe there are many genes that work together to form the pattern on both tail and body and that inbreeding causes them to appear recessive, when they are probably not. The reason some people will disagree is that they are probably not breeding what they consider recessives to true normals to produce normal banded hets, which, if anything else was produced, would discount the simple recessive argument. Right?