Newest male, soon to be a breeder :)

[endrien]

Possible explanation:

He is second generation double het, which means he is expressing either tremper or rainwater albino visually, and carrying the other het non-visibly. Taking a really really close look at him, he looks similar to another "new blood" posted recently, but older.

Only in the first generation will you have normals carrying double hets. Every subsequent generation, you will have no way of knowing which albino strain is showing and which one is hiding. This is precisely why no one should be doing this.

This individual may in fact be expressing both albino strains, but it's difficult to tell visually.

Aha! here's the other thread. Can a few other eyes compare and contrast and see if they see what I'm seeing?

http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=71199

I'm sorry you're getting a crash course in genetics this way.

I don't see it, that baby seem's darker with different facial structure. Mine shows Orange and the other doesn't.
Edit: New info, "mother was tremper and father was tremper het rainwater". Meaning he would be the first generation and if he had the gene's for both, would indeed make him a normal?

 

[lillith]

Colors change as they age. That's why I was asking everyone else.
Facial structure has nothing to do with it.

 

[endrien]

Colors change as they age. That's why I was asking everyone else.
Facial structure has nothing to do with it.

Does my edit in my above post change anything?

 

[lillith]

Not in my opinion, but it does help everyone else compare and contrast easier, so thank you!
There have not been very many "new blood" images posted anywhere for people to be able to visually identify them easily.

Also, based on your new info, he would be Visual Tremper 50% het Rainwater.
Which is way too high of a possible het to breed. The only other thing you could try is test breeding him to a Rainwater directly to prove him out as het or non-het Rainwater. And you will have to be prepared to keep those offspring for life or cull them and destroy all the other eggs once you have your answer, since in effect you would be creating third generation 66% double hets, if he does produce albinos when bred to a Rainwater.

 

[endrien]

Not in my opinion, but it does help everyone else compare and contrast easier, so thank you!

I meant this info that I added

New info, "mother was tremper and father was tremper het rainwater". Meaning he would be the first generation and if he had the gene's for both, would indeed make him a normal?

 

[rumbolt]

No, that would make him tremper albino and possibly carrying the genes for rainwater

 

[lillith]

Sorry I was editing, I saw your additional info, scroll back up!

 

[endrien]

Wouldn't you be able to tell if he had any rainwater by test breeding him(with anything) and looking for Rainwater traits? Considering that if it was Het, then there is a good chance one of the babies would display rainwater.

Regardless, even if there is a chance of him having het rainwater, it does not matter much if you look at how widespread and mixed up leo genetics are across the board with many geckos carrying unknown traits. Either way to me, there seems to be nothing wrong with it.

 

[lillith]

Okay, at this point I throw up my hands, decide to let you screw up your own gecko projects, and let you realize next year that no one will ever buy the offspring of a double het for any of their breeding projects, ever. If they have a grasp on basic genetics. Which I would strongly encourage you to look into the difference between homozygous and heterozygous to start. You are not clear on the subject.

I really tried to explain this. We DON'T, as a community of folks who have geckos in common, WANT any more "hidden hets." That's what the "muddy waters" thread is all about, as a community we are trying to clean up the genetic messes left behind when people start breeding without doing their own research first. I lurked here for a year and a half before I joined, and I spent that time reading up on morphs (and morph compatibility), husbandry, care of gravid females, egg incubation, etc.

You CAN'T just jump into this and assume everything will work itself out.

Please don't be upset, I am trying to tell you why this is not a good idea.
At this point, I pass the explanation torch on to whoever else wants to argue with someone who will not listen since they've already made up their mind!

 

[endrien]

Okay, at this point I throw up my hands, decide to let you screw up your own gecko projects, and let you realize next year that no one will ever buy the offspring of a double het for any of their breeding projects, ever. If they have a grasp on basic genetics. Which I would strongly encourage you to look into the difference between homozygous and heterozygous to start. You are not clear on the subject.

I really tried to explain this. We DON'T, as a community of folks who have geckos in common, WANT any more "hidden hets." That's what the "muddy waters" thread is all about, as a community we are trying to clean up the genetic messes left behind when people start breeding without doing their own research first. I lurked here for a year and a half before I joined, and I spent that time reading up on morphs (and morph compatibility), husbandry, care of gravid females, egg incubation, etc.

You CAN'T just jump into this and assume everything will work itself out.

Please don't be upset, I am trying to tell you why this is not a good idea.
At this point, I pass the explanation torch on to whoever else wants to argue with someone who will not listen since they've already made up their mind!

I dont intend to breed for another few months regardless, but as long as I sell them while listing the possible hets I don't see he problem. considering there is a 50% chance he has no rainwater genes there is a very good chance he only has tremper.

 

[PhoenixCoconut]

WE NEED A GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!!! :main_laugh:

 

[BrightReptiles]

The reason even selling as double gets is that others may try to do what you are trying to do and not table them correctly and it can expand generations causing a ton of mutts on the market, possibly killing off the market for albinos all together out of fear of buying a mutt the same way people who collect war items are afraid of buying confederate pieces from the civil war.

 

[JordanAng420]

I dont intend to breed for another few months regardless, but as long as I sell them while listing the possible hets I don't see he problem. considering there is a 50% chance he has no rainwater genes there is a very good chance he only has tremper.

....and if I decide to hit my head against a wall about 50 times, there's a "very good chance" that I WON'T get brain damage....

but why do it in the first place?

Do yourself and the rest of the community a favor and keep this gecko as PET ONLY.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I dont intend to breed for another few months regardless, but as long as I sell them while listing the possible hets I don't see he problem. considering there is a 50% chance he has no rainwater genes there is a very good chance he only has tremper.

Let me put this as gently as I can....you're a complete moron IF you breed that gecko and try to sell the offspring. Not to mention NOBODY will want them. You will end up with a bunch of geckos that should of never been created. Do yourself a favor and save yourself from complete embarrassment by taking the sound advice you've been given and don't breed the gecko. You only get one chance to establish your reputation and if you try and sell these labeled as double hets or you sell them unlabeled, your reputation as a breeder will be worthless! What part of this don't you get? NOBODY WANTS THEM! it's not like you spent a small fortune on the gecko (I hope) and will lose out on your investment. Just chalk this one up as a pet only. You really shouldn't be breeding any geckos if you don't understand how important this really is. Please....listen to the advice you've been given and move on, study up on breeding and all that's involved.

 

[endrien]

Let me put this as gently as I can....you're a complete moron IF you breed that gecko and try to sell the offspring. Not to mention NOBODY will want them. You will end up with a bunch of geckos that should of never been created. Do yourself a favor and save yourself from complete embarrassment by taking the sound advice you've been given and don't breed the gecko. You only get one chance to establish your reputation and if you try and sell these labeled as double hets or you sell them unlabeled, your reputation as a breeder will be worthless! What part of this don't you get? NOBODY WANTS THEM! it's not like you spent a small fortune on the gecko (I hope) and will lose out on your investment. Just chalk this one up as a pet only. You really shouldn't be breeding any geckos if you don't understand how important this really is. Please....listen to the advice you've been given and move on, study up on breeding and all that's involved.

Unless the person is a breeder, they only care about the "pretty color's". How many people walk into a pet store and buy a gecko without any clue as to what it's genetics are(The majority of people starting into reptiles)?
With 3 different albino strains going on, none of which are compatible, so many geckos already have multiple hereditary genes for them, among other genes. With so many morphs in general being crossed gene pools are a mess. The problem here is that I do not see a gecko possibly having two genes being a big issue. If you mix a Mack Snow with a blizzard, it could be either a Mack snow or a normal with blizzard, meaning it carries both of the traits. Which if bred again could come out with either depending on the mate. People do this all the time and it is no different than having an albino with het albino.
Unless you trace back ALL of a geckos history you have no idea what gene's it could possibly be carrying which is the reason the "waters" are so muddy in the first place, and why they will NEVER be clean.

The geckos that would be produced would be sold(I may not even sell them, possibly just adopt as It is mainly to study breeding, not so much the outcome) as pets, to ordinary people, who just want a nice looking gecko for their son/daughter or just want their own. These are people that would never have any intention to breed and even if they did 3 or 4 that I produced would never be making it off of this island.

I do intend to study genetics a lot more before breeding, but you guys all seem way too serious about a small breeding project that will not be turned into a business and it just for getting my feet wet before moving on to more high end geckos in the fairly distant future.

 

[OnlineGeckos]

Unless the person is a breeder, they only care about the "pretty color's". How many people walk into a pet store and buy a gecko without any clue as to what it's genetics are(The majority of people starting into reptiles)?

I'm just commenting on this quote real quick, but a lot of the people who buy geckos end up breeding them for "fun". Thus it furthers the muddy waters and these double hets and unknown genetics end up getting passed around. And more people do the same, and it gets worse and worse.

I mean do you really want to have the reputation of just another Petco? Or another random pet store that sell leopard geckos without knowing their background, sex, or genetics?

There are other cheap geckos you can buy, some from reputable breeders. I would highly suggest you to look for a gecko with clean genetic background so you know exactly what you are breeding, and what to expect.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Alrighty then. My suggestion is to get a pair of cheap normals het for nothing and start there if you wanna get your feet wet. Best of luck. I'm outta here.

 

[endrien]

I'm just commenting on this quote real quick, but a lot of the people who buy geckos end up breeding them for "fun". Thus it furthers the muddy waters and these double hets and unknown genetics end up getting passed around. And more people do the same, and it gets worse and worse.

I mean do you really want to have the reputation of just another Petco? Or another random pet store that sell leopard geckos without knowing their background, sex, or genetics?

There are other cheap geckos you can buy, some from reputable breeders. I would highly suggest you to look for a gecko with clean genetic background so you know exactly what you are breeding, and what to expect.

To get a gecko with clean genetics of any morph would probably cost me 200$ or more as I would have to get it shipped here. The person I bought this male from will have raptors for 120$ or so but that is not for a decent amount of time and even then I would need to wait for them to be big enough to breed.

There is essentially no breeders around here, the person who sold this male is the first I have found and even he doesn't have any babies yet. The only others available are from other parts of Canada, or random ones from a pet store.

Also I just found out after asking a bit more that the mother more than likely had rainwater in her as well. Which goes back to him not being a normal which makes me pretty confident in him being Only Tremper. The chances are pretty high that he is. Which makes sense because he is from a retailer of trempers and rainwaters which would make it very likely for both to have rainwater traits as the mother and father were probably from the same clutch of mixed Tremper/rainwater.

 

[OnlineGeckos]

Check out vmsherp.com, Sean Niland has tons of geckos for very good prices. He's what I would consider a reputable breeder, give him a try. And no, most breeders will have some geckos that are more affordable. Not everybody sells only high end $300+ geckos.

It's ok to not breed the first geckos you get, I've been there myself. My first 2 leopard geckos were from Petco, got them purely as pets. I got hooked right away and thought about breeding them, thought about mix & matching to create cool morphs and got all excited. But then after reading thoroughly what people say not to do about muddying waters, these 2 geckos became pets only. I still have them, they make great pets. But I won't breed them because nobody at the store could tell me anything about them.

So I know how exciting it can be to get your first geckos and wanting to breed them for fun. But there are simply some things you shouldn't do, and not mixing albino strains is possibly one of the first on the no no list.

 

[endrien]

Check out vmsherp.com, Sean Niland has tons of geckos for very good prices. He's what I would consider a reputable breeder, give him a try. And no, most breeders will have some geckos that are more affordable. Not everybody sells only high end $300+ geckos.

It's ok to not breed the first geckos you get, I've been there myself. My first 2 leopard geckos were from Petco, got them purely as pets. I got hooked right away and thought about breeding them, thought about mix & matching to create cool morphs and got all excited. But then after reading thoroughly what people say not to do about muddying waters, these 2 geckos became pets only. I still have them, they make great pets. But I won't breed them because nobody at the store could tell me anything about them.

So I know how exciting it can be to get your first geckos and wanting to breed them for fun. But there are simply some things you shouldn't do, and not mixing albino strains is possibly one of the first on the no no list.

The problem is that I am in Canada and On an island so shipping is more than the cost of the gecko itself.
I will be keeping my eyes open for a definite male with no hidden het's, but if I can't find one I will not feel any regret for breeding a Tremper that I am quite positive is Only tremper.
This thread is done. Thanks to those who helped me learn some new things about genetics.