No tail? :S

[Dog Shrink]

You will notice a distinct and almost complete divide between the people who are proponents of culling and those who are not.

The experienced, educated and professional members who have responded favor culling.

The inexperienced, under-educated and neophyte hobbyist members do not.

Those who have a vested interest in maintaining healthy captive populations, who understand the potential causes and who understand the potential impact such visible deformities can have all line up on one side.

If you do not align yourself with that viewpoint, then you have no business propagating animals. When you choose to breed you have a responsibility, not just to your own pets but to the entire species; when you choose not to cull you are failing to live up to that responsibility. It is not fun, it is not easy- but it is right. Do the right thing and terminally cull this deformed lizard. If you can't or won't, then stop breeding, immediately and never do so again until such a time as you can fulfill all of the obligations that come with it.

Harsh BUT right. I breed show rabbits and try culling a cute fuzzy 2 week old buuny when you know it is for the betterment of the species. When I first got into breeding rabbits I was told "If you're gonna be a bunny hugger thinking they're all worth saving or breeding or living then this isn't the sport for you".

It IS our responsibility to make certain that we only bring the best animals into this world and when we fail to do so it is our responsibility to make certain those animals do NOT suffer and do NOT get into the hands of naer-do-wells with bad ethics and an even worse understanding of proper breeding/care practices. You choose to play God when you breed anything, so why stop playing God when it comes to the not so fun end of the business? Esp. when it's the right thing to do?

This animal may not show anything now, it may not show anything a year from now, but there is a defect, whether it is from incubation or otherwise that has caused this deformity. Thru the growth and development process there are other defects that may surface, or may not, but the whole point of being a responsible breeder is NOT to dump our defects on other people but to do the right thing and head off any potential disasters before they surface. They say survival of the fittest for a reason.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Aside from the overpopulation of animals in the world, the responsibility and ethics of breeding, how is it fair to let an animal live and struggle (even if it's not a visible struggle) when it is born with known deformities?

 

[Keg34]

You will notice a distinct and almost complete divide between the people who are proponents of culling and those who are not.

The experienced, educated and professional members who have responded favor culling.

The inexperienced, under-educated and neophyte hobbyist members do not.

Those who have a vested interest in maintaining healthy captive populations, who understand the potential causes and who understand the potential impact such visible deformities can have all line up on one side.

If you do not align yourself with that viewpoint, then you have no business propagating animals. When you choose to breed you have a responsibility, not just to your own pets but to the entire species; when you choose not to cull you are failing to live up to that responsibility. It is not fun, it is not easy- but it is right. Do the right thing and terminally cull this deformed lizard. If you can't or won't, then stop breeding, immediately and never do so again until such a time as you can fulfill all of the obligations that come with it.

There is always two sides to each arguement. I also see a difference in people who actually have respect for the possible outcome of their animals. And who much rather see them try to make it, rather than never be given the chance. The reason that I posted this was too glean information from other hobbyists who may have had similar situations with positive outcomes. Also to gain any helpful insight that will allow me to help her with any problems that may arise.

I don't believe that we are required mandatory qualifications as a hobbyist however you are not the person to set these standards. You imply that it is a breeders responsibility to cull a slightly deformed gecko. And you call me out for not having the commited heart to do so. I believe I have made it quite clear this is an otherwise healthy-well responding hatchling. I do not run a "Gecko Mill". Despite her physical misfortune I have made my intentions for her clear. Should I have acted upon your request to cull her at such an earlier age I would never have the oppurtunity to have her examined by a vet to truely determine the cause of this deformity.

Harsh BUT right. I breed show rabbits and try culling a cute fuzzy 2 week old buuny when you know it is for the betterment of the species. When I first got into breeding rabbits I was told "If you're gonna be a bunny hugger thinking they're all worth saving or breeding or living then this isn't the sport for you".

It IS our responsibility to make certain that we only bring the best animals into this world and when we fail to do so it is our responsibility to make certain those animals do NOT suffer and do NOT get into the hands of naer-do-wells with bad ethics and an even worse understanding of proper breeding/care practices. You choose to play God when you breed anything, so why stop playing God when it comes to the not so fun end of the business? Esp. when it's the right thing to do?

This animal may not show anything now, it may not show anything a year from now, but there is a defect, whether it is from incubation or otherwise that has caused this deformity. Thru the growth and development process there are other defects that may surface, or may not, but the whole point of being a responsible breeder is NOT to dump our defects on other people but to do the right thing and head off any potential disasters before they surface. They say survival of the fittest for a reason.

I do not choose play "GOD" in my breeding and neither should you. Even though you house your gecko's, you feed your gecko's, pair your gecko's, incubate your egg's, you are not God. This is not immaculnant conception. I simply do not choose to play the role of Death either. I have stated that I would much rather work to care for this gecko then take an unnecessary life.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I do not choose play "GOD" in my breeding and neither should you. Even though you house your gecko's, you feed your gecko's, pair your gecko's, incubate your egg's, you are not God. This is not immaculnant conception. I simply do not choose to play the role of Death either. I have stated that I would much rather work to care for this gecko then take an unnecessary life.

When YOU choose to breed captive raised animals you are INDEED choosing to play God. YOU are deciding whether or not to let them breed, not them. No this is not immaculate conception, but it is selective breeding and when you choose to to do Mother Nature's job, you have the responsibility to take it ALL on, not just pick and choose the parts you like. You may not like to choose to play the roll of Death but when you choose to bring life into the world you have eliminated that option. They are not in the wild, for if this one was it would surely not survive for very long as it has lost it's main defense mechanism, it's tail. There is always 2 sides to every arguement BUT in this case the arguement is going to always turn back to the ETHICAL thing to do as a breeder. Also I do not breed leos, I breed rabbits. If I didn't play God with my rabbits there would be cases where they would suffer, and in the long run which is the greater good? Letting a defective animal languish a long slow painful death or doing God's work and ending the suffering? Read my signature again... you are choosing to be indifferent to the potential suffering this animal may have either now or in the near futurer, and THAT is inhumane.

 

[M_surinamensis]

There is always two sides to each arguement.

A right side and a wrong side. Guess which one you're on.

I also see a difference in people who actually have respect for the possible outcome of their animals.

If you think culling is the same as not caring, then you are an absolute fool. It is the epitome of caring, it is taking necessary steps for the best even when they are unpleasant and painful to carry out. It is sacrificing what we, as keepers, want and feel good about in order to do what is best for the animals we keep. It is dedicating our priorities and our actions to doing the right thing, not the most convenient thing, not the thing that selfishly happens to be what we wish were the case.

Keeping deformed animals alive is disrespectful to the idea of life and the sanctity of nature. You have things completely backwards, making your feelings more important than the health and well being of the animals you choose to keep.

I don't believe that we are required mandatory qualifications as a hobbyist

I know you don't believe that. Which is why you should not be breeding animals. Hell, you're borderline on giving me the impression that you should not own them at all.

You imply that it is a breeders responsibility to cull a slightly deformed gecko.

I did not imply that. I stated it outright.

I do not run a "Gecko Mill".

Really? Small breeding stock with minimal selection criteria producing deformed offspring that you aren't euthanizing because you find it inconvenient to do so... sounds like a gecko mill to me, if such a thing exists.

Should I have acted upon your request to cull her at such an earlier age I would never have the oppurtunity to have her examined by a vet to truely determine the cause of this deformity.

I very much doubt that you have a vet that is capable of making a definite determination on that score, given the available information and the scope of readily available examination tools and tests.

When YOU choose to breed captive raised animals you are INDEED choosing to play God. YOU are deciding whether or not to let them breed, not them. No this is not immaculate conception, but it is selective breeding and when you choose to to do Mother Nature's job, you have the responsibility to take it ALL on, not just pick and choose the parts you like.

Perhaps not the terminology I'd be using, but very well said all the same.

Too few people seem to understand what they are doing with captive breeding, the near total removal of natural selection, the alterations they make to the pressures present in a population as a breeding imperative. The scale of it is utterly lost on most of them, who simply have no concept of the importance of the thing they are supplanting with their "first male, first female, never cull anything" approach. The entire process of natural selection and Darwinian evolution, destroyed inside a few generations through sheer stubborn ignorance.

They are not in the wild, for if this one was it would surely not survive for very long as it has lost it's main defense mechanism, it's tail.

It will also likely have side effects on the animal's metabolism and nutritional needs. Without the ability to build appropriate fat stores, given the truncated space available for doing so and the already malformed shape of the area, the animal's caloric and nutritional intake are unable to function normally. It likely has the same needs as an animal with a freshly dropped tail, with all the intensive micromanagement of diet and digestion which that entails. Combined, at this time, with the far more concentrated needs of a juvenile animal, going through stages of physical growth. Which I am guessing it probably won't get since its owner thinks there's nothing wrong.

And even that is a best case scenario, which assumes that a visible spinal deformity is an isolated difficulty which won't or can't manifest elsewhere on the skeleton or cause associated difficulties based on the internal changes to the physical shape of the animal. Something that often manifests as the animal grows when nobody takes the time to do the right thing and cull it out of the egg. Continued growth of some body parts but not all, organ systems crushed against one another, overproduction of certain cell types causing problems (like an animal with a physiology set to regrow a lost tail, unable to grow a lost tail and consequentially developing calcium deposits along the spine or on various joints).

Read my signature again... you are choosing to be indifferent to the potential suffering this animal may have either now or in the near futurer, and THAT is inhumane.

They definitely are doing that and I don't think they're even aware of it, no matter how it has been explained. Their own ego and their own selfish whims are obliterating their ethical responsibilities. It is more important to them to feel warm and cuddly than it is to do the right thing.

 

[clemsonguy1125]

Culling is nessacery when culling is nessacery, this is not an argument over if it is right or wrong and the owner seems to know this. If the gecko has anything other than this one problem he should be culled at that moment. If it is not causing him pain there is now problem. It will be obvious when it is. But by keeping it you are making the choice knowing that in weeks to years if it show new problems it will be your responsibility to kill it. If you do not think you can do this, cull it immeaditaly to protect him from pain and to protect his species. I am not on either side, it's your choice after observing the gecko.

 

[Keg34]

@ M_surinamensis I wonder if you will truely ever learn some people skills. Your attitude has shown me that you are the one who is blinded by their own ego and personal beliefs. Despite your extensive anatomical knowledge of this topic, I find it difficult to take your advice when you would much rather bash me for my own decisions. Using big words with a 16 year old will not get you anywhere. This is not my first clutch, nor will it be my last. Nevertheless thank you for your opinions and reluctantly provided knowledge.

 

[M_surinamensis]

If it is not causing him pain there is now problem. It will be obvious when it is.

That's not necessarily true.

Reptiles do not always show outward signs even to indicate the presence of acute pain, rarely will they show anything obvious for something chronic and ongoing. There are some observable behaviors but the majority of these are pretty alien to those shown by our own species except in the most extreme and immediate cases, which makes it very hard to judge how much or how little pain an individual animal is actually in. A person in chronic pain shows signs we recognize intuitively, they wince and they suck air through their teeth, they groan and they squint and they can directly communicate their state in a hundred different ways that we recognize and identify from subconscious cues. We do not have that same level of empathy with reptiles and consequentially we tend to be very poor judges of how much pain they are actually in.

So... it will not necessarily "be obvious." Rarely, in fact- except in cases of immediate and severe physical trauma.

@ M_surinamensis I wonder if you will truely ever learn some people skills.

Answer this; are you thinking about the subject in a way you never have before, considering the animal from a new angle, trying to sort out what are your personal feelings about having to put an animal down and what are the dispassionate reasons for making the decision? Actually thinking, considering, analyzing and weighing rather than just going with your gut feelings?

If you are then my people skills are just fine, no matter what conclusion you reach.

Using big words with a 16 year old will not get you anywhere.

You might want to re-think that comment.

Either you understood every word I used, chosen as the most appropriate ones to communicate the concept they represent and there's no problem with their use in the context of a conversation with a sixteen year old.

Or you didn't know a few and will be figuring it out from context, by looking them up, or by simply asking for clarification- in which case you have gained a little education which is never a bad thing.

I do not make a distinction between an adult and a child too often online under most circumstances. If you are intelligent and mature enough to be wandering around the internet unsupervised, then you're intelligent and mature enough to have a conversation.

You're also supposed to be intelligent and mature enough to show a little personal responsibility when you do something like making a decision to manipulate animals into producing offspring. Your responsibilities as a herpetoculturalist are not made lesser just because you're not eighteen, they're exactly identical to those shared by everyone else who keeps and breeds animals.

If you are not mature enough and intelligent enough at sixteen or at sixty to do those things, then you really shouldn't be here posting or putting lizards in glass boxes.

 

[SA Leopards]

Culling is nessacery when culling is nessacery, this is not an argument over if it is right or wrong and the owner seems to know this. If the gecko has anything other than this one problem he should be culled at that moment. If it is not causing him pain there is now problem. It will be obvious when it is. But by keeping it you are making the choice knowing that in weeks to years if it show new problems it will be your responsibility to kill it. If you do not think you can do this, cull it immeaditaly to protect him from pain and to protect his species. I am not on either side, it's your choice after observing the gecko.

Agree with you 100%, do what is best for the animal.

Read my signature again... you are choosing to be indifferent to the potential suffering this animal may have either now or in the near futurer, and THAT is inhumane.

Your signature can just as easily be read in an other way, I could easily say that culling an animal because of a deformity that COULD be a health hazard, without giving it a fair chance to see if there is in fact any major problems is being indifferent to that animal. Any suffering is the responsibility of the keeper to sort out and yes I agree with you that culling is necessary with any suffering, but this animal is healthy and not suffering.

@M_surinamensis: you said earlier in the thread that the responsible, educated etc. breeders favour culling, and once again I reiterate that I favour culling if the animals suffer, but then on that principle alone all blizzards, albinos and the other pigment lacking morphs should be culled at once and not bred because of the eye and skin problems these geckos are associated with if they are exposed to light?


@Keg34: I am glad that you decided not to cull it, I hope for your part that it stays healthy and that there will be no need to cull in its lifetime! Please keep us updated!

 

[GothicGurrrl]

:O big debate! haha

 

[Stl_Greaser]

@ M_surinamensis I wonder if you will truely ever learn some people skills. Your attitude has shown me that you are the one who is blinded by their own ego and personal beliefs. Despite your extensive anatomical knowledge of this topic, I find it difficult to take your advice when you would much rather bash me for my own decisions. Using big words with a 16 year old will not get you anywhere. This is not my first clutch, nor will it be my last. Nevertheless thank you for your opinions and reluctantly provided knowledge.

This is why I waited until I had almost two decades of experience with reptiles before I ever thought about breeding them. Just cause you got some lizards a year or two ago and read a book and some internet posts, does not make you an expert.

I studied reptiles and learned from my my mistakes from the age of 11 to 29 before I attempted any breeding at all. There is a lot to learn about how a minor deformity you can see can and most of the time will be the precursor to much more major deformities you can not see!

Even if this animal never shows any other signs of problems, there is a huge risk. Just a scenario for you: Say you this animal reaches adult hood with no signs of major health problems. So you decide to breed this animal for some reason or an other (the colors turned out beautiful or just being young uneducated, misinformed and inexperienced ) and all of the offspring seem perfect. So then you keep at it an produce 6 more generations and then on the sixth generation all of the offspring have major health problems. Well that may well mean that every animal produced by any relative that came from this gecko has that problem flowing through their blood lines. That can mean thousands of animals with some sort of chromosomal, DNA or other genetic deformity are out in the hobby!

Some people have no Idea what so ever how this could impact the species they are breeding on a huge level. You would never be able to get the genetics of the entire population cleaned up after that. It could be a disaster.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Did none of you read the part where Semus said "It will also likely have side effects on the animal's metabolism and nutritional needs. Without the ability to build appropriate fat stores, given the truncated space available for doing so and the already malformed shape of the area, the animal's caloric and nutritional intake are unable to function normally. It likely has the same needs as an animal with a freshly dropped tail, with all the intensive micromanagement of diet and digestion which that entails. Combined, at this time, with the far more concentrated needs of a juvenile animal, going through stages of physical growth" OR "And even that is a best case scenario, which assumes that a visible spinal deformity is an isolated difficulty which won't or can't manifest elsewhere on the skeleton or cause associated difficulties based on the internal changes to the physical shape of the animal. Something that often manifests as the animal grows when nobody takes the time to do the right thing and cull it out of the egg. Continued growth of some body parts but not all, organ systems crushed against one another, overproduction of certain cell types causing problems (like an animal with a physiology set to regrow a lost tail, unable to grow a lost tail and consequentially developing calcium deposits along the spine or on various joints)" Don't either of those HIGHLY valid and completely relivant quality of life issues mean ANYTHING? I know to the 16 year old it is likely just a tail, a physical deformity that really isn't THAT big of a deal, but since you are so young and I highly doubt completely understand exactly how important a tail is to a leo like Semus does, or have enough knowledge of the physiology of leos to understand how the lack of the tail can cause major issues, I mean c'mon, this is a life impacting issue not just a beauty flaw.

Believe me I am all about giving an animal with a slight deformity like an undershot jaw or maybe even missing a foot a chance at a good life but this is a tail, a major part of the leos metabolism system. In human sense it would be like missing your pancreas. Seamus may lack a little tact but you certainly have to appreciate his passion for herps and his EXTENSIVE knowledge on them. You can't disregard his imput simply because you don't like the package it is wrapped in.

And for Arno... I'm all about giving an animal a fighting chance but by ignoring all the facts of what could and is likely to happen, and hoping for the best is wearing blinders. You ALWAYS prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Being indifferent to the impending suffering this animal is very likely to endure is inhumane whether it is showing signs now of suffering or not. Not giving an obviously defective animal a fighting chance is NOT indifference but intelligence. When breeding you can't take a glass is half full over half empty approach. The odds are always stacked against a deformed animal. There is no COULD in this factor when you weigh all the evidence of just how important having a tail is to a leo. As far as comparing this deformity to albinoism is just like comparing apples to oranges. Albinoism is not a deformity. This is like lightring a fire cracker and then asking if it will go off over when it will go off. It's just illogical.

 

[M_surinamensis]

@M_surinamensis: you said earlier in the thread that the responsible, educated etc. breeders favour culling, and once again I reiterate that I favour culling if the animals suffer, but then on that principle alone all blizzards, albinos and the other pigment lacking morphs should be culled at once and not bred because of the eye and skin problems these geckos are associated with if they are exposed to light?

I favor culling all morphs anyway and just breeding for naturally occurring phases, though not for health reasons.

There are a few factors that make albinism (for example) a slightly different case, largely a matter of degree.

First and foremost, light sensitivity is not something that has negative health effects unless the animals in question are exposed to prolonged periods of intense light. Since leopard geckos can synthesize D3 without the need for strong UV penetration, the problems can be sidestepped without a need for husbandry deviations. In diurnal species, albinism is much more of a problem and the condition tends to have a much more significant quality of life ramifications.

Secondly, the method of transmission and the method of action for albino lines are knowns, rather than unknowns. By themselves, those traits have a predictable impact on the physiology of the animal possessing it. That differs significantly from the scenario present here, where the cause is unknown, the exact effects are unknown and the impact on the animals health is a major unknown. A pretty important part of the animal's body is missing- that's very different than a pigment mutation when it comes to the practical side effects.

Third, control over any individual animal cannot be guaranteed over time. The animal stands a pretty good chance of developing health problems as a result of its deformity, it may or may not have a genetic cause and the animal may or may not be in constant pain (now or in the future). Someone can intend to designate an animal as a personal pet but life does not always manifest according to plan. There are an infinite variety of reasons why someone may have to give up their pets, why a new owner may end up with them. If the owner dies or is seriously injured, if they move to a new place where pets aren't allowed, if they lose their job and cannot afford to keep the animals, if the animals are stolen... if a young owner goes off to college where they cannot take the lizards with them... truly, anything can happen. Which means that the potential exists for widespread, uncontrolled negative scenarios resulting from a deformed animal being allowed to live. Contamination of a wider population in the case of genetic conditions, an animal that has special needs slowly suffering to death in the hands of someone who is incapable or unwilling to prevent it- these are possibilities. Real possibilities, with odds that are dangerously probable.

When someone breeds, when they own an animal at all really, they are assuming responsibility for that animal as an individual and also assuming responsibility for what kind of impact that animal has on the wider population. Allowing a deformed animal to live is failing to uphold that responsibility. It is risking not just one animal, it is not only a gamble on if this one will grow and be sort of healthyish... it is gambling with every future leopard gecko owned by every future owner. Any possibility, no matter how remote, is too big a risk to take chances with. Ethical practices need to be regarded as absolutes, right and wrong, from a position of knowledge and with the entire picture kept in mind.

Euthanizing an animal is not fun, it is not pleasurable. It is simply necessary. Necessity wins if it is put up in a fight against feeling sad. Culling when appropriate is the correct thing to do, sometimes a very hard thing to do, but correct nonetheless. Right isn't always easy.

 

[SA Leopards]

Did none of you anti-cull leo huggers...

Wow, since when did debate go into name slinging? I know in S.A our politics usually end in a brawl (no jokes, ANC youth league meetings are associated with riot control police), but that was not really called for?

@M_surinamensis: Thanx for your previous post, it really made sense. Part three of it is the part that struck the most logic with me. You know your leos, that is very evident! I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us as it is the only way for me to better my knowledge!

Sometimes it feels like there is no boundary between a hobbyist and a breeder, like me for instance with my snakes, I keep over 20 and breed them annually, but I wouldn't consider myself a breeder. With the geckos I keep several species, breed them (for the challenge) and still don't consider myself a breeder. Always figured breeders where the people who's livelihoods dependant on selling the offspring.

In conclusion: (seeing that this is getting way to aggro for my taste) I agree with culling, especially if animals where bred with the intent of sale as likely future breeding programs or if there is clear evidence of suffering on the part of the animal. In regards to this specific animal, I am against it.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Edited it just for you hon... but I don't see how calling some one a leo hugger is an insult... don't worry you won't need the riot police here but guess what hon... you ARE a breeder... you BREED animals... you can't generally make a "living" off selling what you breed unless you mass produce and throw ethics to the wind and sell anything that comes down the pike. I breed show rabbits... I KNOW I'll never make a profit off it, I do it for the challenge in pursuit of the perfect rabbit... I'm a breeder and proud of it, but what seperates me from the BACK YARD breeder is ethics and taking responsibility with my breeding program and doing the good and the bad end of it. There has to be balance in the Universe, with good comes bad, you can't have one with out the other... honestly imo a hobbiest is a person who breeds with out complete knowledge and understanding of the animals they work with. A breeder should know all that is involved and that includes ethics.

 

[Jordan]

since the OP is 16 year old i just wanna say im 17 year old, and was breeding when i was 16. And guess what, i had all the same responsibilities as the 20 year olds, the 30 year olds and everyone else in the hobby.
And yes culling is hard especially at our age. BUT its part of breeding... if you cant cull you cant breed. Did you read about breeding before starting, did you CHOOSE to breed? or did it just come out of nowhere by accident. because if you CHOOSE to breed, you CHOOSE to take on the responsibilities which means you CHOOSE to cull when necessary, and nows the time, its necessary.
if you didnt choose all this then you shouldnt be hatching eggs. if you did choose and wont cull then you made the wrong choice.

 

[Keg34]

As I had stated before, this is not my first clutch. This is infact my third year breeding. I have spent alot of time researching the species. To say that I have such a great lack of knowledge due to my age is not true.

Also, lecturing me for not taking the easy way out and culling this animal is not what I wanted from this thread. I do believe that it could have been a temperature fluctuation in the incubator since for no other reason can I see this to be genetic. I will not be culling this animal unless another problem arises. I will be doing my best to care for her and tend to her as a special animal.

M_surinamensis has provided me with some more in depth information which I will using to my advantage to help this gecko. It is appreciated and I am sorry for causing such a heated debate.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Don't be sorry for causing a heated debate... it's a learning process. Only thru these debates can we learn how to better serve the animals we care for. Also culling this animal is not "taking the easy way out" it is the logical thing to do. There is nothing easy about having to cull an animal you produce. It is our passion and love for these animals that makes us want to do what we do so there is NO way this is ever an easy feat. The hard thing when in any breeding program is to remove the emotional end of it and to be logical, it's not generally human nature to be a completely logical creature, but when it comes to a matter of QUALITY of life over QUANTITY of life then quality always has to win even if it means not givng that animal every opportunity to grow. When we as breeders see and KNOW what a deficite like this can and likely will produce in the long run, the answer is obvious. Sorry but that is how I feel on the matter... I hope I'm wrong but hearing everything Semus has offered regarding the detriment the loss of a tail can produce I honestly wouldn't want to risk ANY suffering of the animal.

Good luck.

 

[Jordan]

As I had stated before, this is not my first clutch. This is infact my third year breeding. I have spent alot of time researching the species. To say that I have such a great lack of knowledge due to my age is not true.

It doesnt matter if youve been breeding since your were two, the responsibility is the same.
and i dont think anyone said you have a lack of knowledge due to your age. im your age and at our age it is hard to put the emotion aside, but we must do. Even at our age we must learn to cull where it is needed.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I insinuated lack of intelligence or understanding based on age by saying this Jordan "I know to the 16 year old it is likely just a tail, a physical deformity that really isn't THAT big of a deal, but since you are so young and I highly doubt completely understand exactly how important a tail is to a leo like Semus does, or have enough knowledge of the physiology of leos to understand how the lack of the tail can cause major issues, I mean c'mon, this is a life impacting issue not just a beauty flaw."