Our Enigma Hatchings have the Dreaded Enigma Isuues

[PSGeckos]

Well guys showed you a pic of our new Bell Enigma hatchings and thought we would share with you guys a couple of videos of each leo, they both are inflicted with the dreded Enigma problems We want to be as open as we can about this in order to learn more about this and will hopefully be able to submit these for studies along with Nick & Carries (Ark Reptiles)female.
We are very upset, as we don't know if the little ones are suffering and have prepared ourselfs for the next 5 Bell Enigma clutches to also be inflicted.
We have some other Enigma eggs with have been outcrossed to other morphs, these eggs look fertile and are currently cooking.

Baby 001 - This lil one appeared very clam when hatched and has appeard to get worse, it has shed today, so we will see if it feeds ok


Baby002 - This lil one appeared a lot more hyper and worse than baby001, but this lil one has appeared to have adapted better and is not circling as much.


We have also added some infomation from our findings, scanning through the internet as we have been toying with the idea of it being a balance issue - Some information which we came across is very interesting and could possible be a plausable reason to this problem.

From: http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/150/2/815
And
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otolith
Common signs of vestibular syndrome include falling, head tilt (rotation of the head with one ear held lower than the other), flickering of the eyeball from side-to-side or up and down (nystagmus), general wobbliness (often with the animal drifting to one side as he moves around) and/or circling. The balance centre is very close to the area of the brain that controls vomiting and so animals with disturbances to the vestibular system may feel nauseous or be sick.
Head tilt (het) is a recessive mutation in mice causing vestibular dysfunction. Homozygotes display abnormal responses to position change and linear acceleration and cannot swim. However, they are not deaf. het was mapped to the proximal region of mouse chromosome 17, near the T locus. Here we report anatomical characterization of het mutants and high resolution mapping using a set of chromosome deletions. The defect in het mutants is limited to the utricle and saccule of the inner ear, which completely lack otoliths. The unique specificity of the het mutation provides an opportunity to better understand the development of the vestibular system. Complementation analyses with a collection of embryonic stem (ES)- and germ cell-induced deletions localized het to an interval near the centromere of chromosome 17 that was indivisible by recombination mapping. This approach demonstrates the utility of chromosome deletions as reagents for mapping and characterizing mutations, particularly in situations where recombinational mapping is inadequate.



An otolith, (oto-, ear + lithos, a stone), also called statoconium[1] or otoconium is a structure in the saccule or utricle of the inner ear, specifically in the vestibular labyrinth. The saccule and utricle, in turn, together make the otolith organs. They are sensitive to gravity and linear acceleration. Because of their orientation in the head, the utricle is sensitive to a change in horizontal movement, and the saccule gives information about vertical acceleration (such as when in an elevator).
Otoliths are small particles, composed of a combination of a gelatinous matrix and calcium carbonate in the viscous fluid of the saccule and utricle. The inertia of these small particles causes them to stimulate hair cells when the head moves. The hair cells send signals down sensory nerve fibres, which are interpreted by the brain as motion.
When the head is in a normal upright position, the otolith presses on the sensory hair cell receptors. This pushes the hair cell processes down and prevents them from moving side to side. However, when the head is tilted, the pull of gravity on statoconia shift the hair cell processes to the side, distorting them and sending a message to the central nervous system that the head is no longer level but now tilted.
I've included a few pictures of the inner ear anatomy, i know it is of a human ear, but just to give you an understanding:

We've got them booked into see the vet to try and get to the bottom of it, whether it is a chromosome problem or some other explination.

 

[arkreptiles]

Hi Guys

Really sorry to see this, especially from two parents that display none of the problems associated with this morph.

As you say we are also getting our female adult enigma checked over by the assistant professor at Cambridge University. Hopefully with our combined experience and medical advice we will be able to shed some proper light on the subject.

Dr David Williams (occular specialist) whilst not ruling out occular albinism has said quite strongly that in his opinion it is not any form of this and is seeking further assistance from a neuro specialist colleague.

We await our enigma x enigma eggs to hatch (test breeding only as female is afflicted) so will see if there are similar issues. What we can say is of the two enigma hatchlings we have had to date from outcrossing to other morphs that neither of them have yet displayed any abnormal behaviour.

We sincerely hope that we can understand this problem in detail as there is so much potential with this morph and it would be a shame if it was found out that it cannot be erradicated.

 

[Stitchex]

I noticed that the first one was circling on what appeared to be wet paper towel. Do you think humidity or wetness may trigger this reaction? I think it very highly unlikely, but I hope they find what is wrong with this particular morph. My heart dropped when I saw that.....

 

[LeosForLess]

I noticed that the first one was circling on what appeared to be wet paper towel. Do you think humidity or wetness may trigger this reaction? I think it very highly unlikely, but I hope they find what is wrong with this particular morph. My heart dropped when I saw that.....

I wasnt thinking that at all, but i know ears are sensitive to pressure, like when they pop when you go up in an airplane. Could it have to do with the pressure?

 

[Mel&Keith]

How bright was the light in the room? The second one looks like a reaction that any hatchling albino would have in a moderately bright room, especially a Bell. We just hatched an APTOR that wouldn't open its eyes even with the blinds closed. Nothing unusual, just extra sensitive baby eyes.

Just wait and see how the rest come out, don't get discouraged yet. We only hatched the one that circled last year. All of the rest were normal. I made different pairings this year to see if it was a fluke of if it's passed by the mother (Enigma). All of the eggs are still cooking so we will wait and see. So far all of our Enigmas have only been hatching completely normal non-Enigmas.

 

[PSGeckos]

How bright was the light in the room? The second one looks like a reaction that any hatchling albino would have in a moderately bright room, especially a Bell. We just hatched an APTOR that wouldn't open its eyes even with the blinds closed. Nothing unusual, just extra sensitive baby eyes.

Just wait and see how the rest come out, don't get discouraged yet. We only hatched the one that circled last year. All of the rest were normal. I made different pairings this year to see if it was a fluke of if it's passed by the mother (Enigma). All of the eggs are still cooking so we will wait and see. So far all of our Enigmas have only been hatching completely normal non-Enigmas.

We checked them tonight whilst the rep shed was in near blackness and Enig n002 seamed to cope abit better whilst 001 was still circling quite alot

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I have been in contact with UC Davis Veterinary School as well as Western University's Vet School asking for help in studying these geckos that exhibit this behavior.

What I have heard back is, that it would be an EXCELLENT thesis project for a graduate student(s)... but in order for this to become a reality, it takes money. The student needs a l-a-r-g-e number of Enigmas that have this issue, as well as a number of Enigmas that do NOT exhibit this problem as a control group.

Once the study gets outlined, it gets submitted for a grant (money). Use of the labs, equipment, materials, genetic testing, and time has to get paid for somehow, and most of the Universities have grant programs for studies of this nature.

I have an appointment to speak with the Dean of Reptile and Amphibian Studies to lobby for a study of this magnitude. I know of a few breeders that are willing to donate Enigmas that do exhibit these 'neurological' issues, but do you seriously think there will be any breeders who would be willing to sacrifice their valuable Enigmas that don't have any problems?

 

[fallen_angel]

I think that there would be some people out there that would gladly give their Enigmas that don't have this problem for the valuable and needed research.. But of course, not everyone would

 

[KelliH]

Well, like we've already talked about Marcia, I will be willing to donate as many as possible to facilitate any studies. Steve and I got in touch with a vet he knows at Texas A & M that is an expert in animal ophthalmology, and also in herpetology. We are hoping to be able to get some studies going through him as well, or if not that at least he can examine several Enigmas and perhaps give us a better idea of what is going on inside them.

 

[KelliH]

And of course I am referring to donating Enigmas with the more severe behavior and ones that are not so severe or are "normal".

 

[PaulSage]

PSGeckos: Thanks for taking the time to post and share the videos of your hatchings, as I have yet to see such an extreme case of whatever it is afflicting some Enigmas in person.

I have an appointment to speak with the Dean of Reptile and Amphibian Studies to lobby for a study of this magnitude. I know of a few breeders that are willing to donate Enigmas that do exhibit these 'neurological' issues, but do you seriously think there will be any breeders who would be willing to sacrifice their valuable Enigmas that don't have any problems?

Marcia, you can count on me for at least a dozen (I forgot how many I have left).

That said, I think it would be a good idea to repost your proposal, suggestions and ideas in a new thread where you could keep us updated on where the UCDVS stands on their acceptance of said project.

 

[lytlesnake]

I just found that my problem enigma "Shaky" likes wax worms. She just tore up 5 of 'em! Previously she had been eating giant mealies, but lately hasn't shown much interest in those. My other enigma het tremper female also just ate some waxworms, and my enigma het bell male ate 1 too. He probably ate the others I left him, I'll check later. I know waxworms are said to be a little fatty, but Shaky could use a little fattening up anyway.

So enigmas seem to like waxworms! Hopefully that helps. The enigmas with vision and balance problems need a slow moving food, so waxworms are perfect. I don't use a dish, I just drop them on the paper towel in front of the gecko.

As far as that study goes, I'd be hesitant to donate the one problem enigma I've got, since she requires some special attention to feed. The people who may be doing this upcoming study should be made aware that they might need to spend some extra time caring for the geckos, as some of them will likely have individual requirements.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I know of a few breeders that are willing to donate Enigmas that do exhibit these 'neurological' issues, but do you seriously think there will be any breeders who would be willing to sacrifice their valuable Enigmas that don't have any problems?

I meant to say many instead of any. I had already discussed this with Kelli and Paul, and they were very quick to 'pony up' with offers of Enigmas (both with and without traits) to donate for a project like this, which I think is fantastic! I re-read my post and I didnt mean for it to come across that there weren't ANY breeders that would be willing to pitch in with non-symptomatic Enigmas.

Sorry if it sounded that way, guys!

 

[PSGeckos]

Well this is great news that you guys are being so proactive!
We too are in contact with a professor at Cambridge University who maybe willing to take on a scientific study.

We are only a very small scale breeder, we have 14 adults in total and the 2 Adult Enigmas, who are healthy and their two hatchlings to date , which ar obviously showing issues. We have a few other eggs cooking. Even that said we would be more than willing to donate all this years young, healthy and unhealthy Enigmas in order to get to the bottom of this issue. We don't think for one minute that the issues of losing money and the profit form NOT selling healthy Enigmas would come into it for one minute - WE CARE about these animals, and really, really need to make sure we have an understanding of why this is happening and if it can be erradicated.

If it is an ear problem, i've had a bad inner ear infection before, and it was the worse illness i've ever had, constantly feeling the room spinning, falling sideways, feeling sick, imagine what these poor animals are going through!

Another very important thing would be for those who do get answers, is to share it with the rest ofthe Enigma community, even if it found to be detrimental to the morph - so hopefully if a group of us over here get a study going, and you guys over there get a study going - fingers crossed we can get some answers :main_thumbsup:

 

[arkreptiles]

Really encouraged to see you guys willing to get to the bottom of this. I hope we can get sufficient numbers of healthy and 'unhealthy' Enigma's over here to make the study worthwhile.

Thinking out load - is it worh the Doctor we are using at Cambridge University here to contact Marcia or Kelli's specialists in the US?

The details of our guy are as follows:

Dr DL Williams MA VetMB PhD CertVOphthal FRCVS,

Associate Lecturer, Veterinary Ophthalmology,
Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine,
University of Cambridge CB3 OES

Director of Studies, Veterinary Medicine,
St John's College,
Cambridge CB2 1TP

phone/fax: 01223 232977
mobile: 07939 074682

Let me know and I can put you in touch.

Many thanks
Nick & Carrie

 

[Sandra]

I'm sorry the hatchlings turned out that way. One of my girls has issues and definitely want to know what they are going through and if it can be helped.

I suggested something some time ago but it didn't have any support. If there's any way I can help from here, although I don't know how, I would be more than happy to.

Maybe we could start a blog or website about this to share the results of the research and discuss them?

And just a thought, what are they going to do with the animals? As Jason said, enigmas with issues require a lot of special attention. They aren't going to kill them to do the tests, are they...?

 

[david13]

is that only for enigmas so far??? i never saw that before

 

[PSGeckos]

I'm sorry the hatchlings turned out that way. One of my girls has issues and definitely want to know what they are going through and if it can be helped.

I suggested something some time ago but it didn't have any support. If there's any way I can help from here, although I don't know how, I would be more than happy to.

Maybe we could start a blog or website about this to share the results of the research and discuss them?

And just a thought, what are they going to do with the animals? As Jason said, enigmas with issues require a lot of special attention. They aren't going to kill them to do the tests, are they...?

Well done you for suggesting a fund - To be honest I’m not sure how many takers we'll get over here, we're just hoping along with Nick & Carrie that Mr Williams will take this on and study them, if not, i have no idea where to go next

The website/blog would be a great idea, even now it appears people aren't aware of the Enigma issue.

I'm not aware what would happen to them in the lab, I’m presuming one would have to be euthanized in order to examine its eyes/brain/ear, although i know this is sad, but it has got to be seen as a positive as it will help the morph in the long run

 

[PSGeckos]

is that only for enigmas so far??? i never saw that before

It appears so; i only became aware of it around Christmas time when i read a thread on here.
Now it seems to be popping up all over the place with Enigmas, well the ones that people are willing to share, who knows how many have been effected and owners have kept quiet? There are even ones that are affected that have been bred to other morphs.

 

[PaulSage]

And just a thought, what are they going to do with the animals? As Jason said, enigmas with issues require a lot of special attention. They aren't going to kill them to do the tests, are they...?

I think the more appropriate term would be sacrifice, not "kill."

I think at this point it's still quite apparent that significant and extensive scientific laboratory testing is paramount to determining what is going on with some of these geckos--what's causing it, what's it's linked to, what prognoses can be made, what can we "do about it," etc. I doubt anyone here is eager to "kill" any geckos, but sacrifice is more than likely required to get the answers that so many of us here are eager to get.

It appears so; i only became aware of it around Christmas time when i read a thread on here.
Now it seems to be popping up all over the place with Enigmas, well the ones that people are willing to share, who knows how many have been effected and owners have kept quiet? There are even ones that are affected that have been bred to other morphs.

I doubt much can be done to coerce those breeders whom haven't publicly shared their results and findings to do so, and I don't really support the idea of trying to force anyone to disclose such information. I think those who have a genuine interest and commitment to figuring out what is going on behind the Enigmas will do so; those who don't won't. So far it would appear that there is at least a promising number of breeders committed; one can only hope that there is a sufficient amount of support for the idea.

I've done my best to disclose everything I've observed with my Enigmas thus far, although I do regret not formatting or publishing it in a more inclusive and coherent manner. I don't recall how many Enigmas I hatched last year off the top of my head, but none of them exhibited more than a mild at best case of mobility and coordination impairment. I've hatched about 20 this season so far and only have a few eggs left in the incubator. I finally hatched one that is progressively developing mobility and coordination issues, which didn't start developing until he was roughly 10 weeks old. Until a week ago, I couldn't detect anything wrong or abnormal with him. Anyway, at this point in time from my own observations and breedings, I'm inclined to say that whatever is affecting some Enigmas is statistically more remote than what I've seen claimed elsewhere.