Our leo tragedy

[ElapidSVT]

funny that nobody ever seems to collect photographic evidence.
i had one gecko killed by superworms and i took several photos.

i am a skeptic.
prove me wrong.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/elapid/2562588984/in/set-72157603922434714

dead gecko from superworm 'attack'.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Thanks for posting that, Rob... even though it is hard to look at. I had a gecko who got chewed on by crickets continually before I figured out what was doing it. I also wonder if the superworms chewed their way out of the stomach, or tried to chew their way in. Either way, it's scary and tragic.

 

[M_surinamensis]

So I guess it's theoretically possible for a feeder to remain alive a very short time after being swallowed.

I saw first-hand the inside of the throat of a leopard gecko that was bitten severely by a superworm

Brief quotes, just to avoid repeating your entire posts.

Both valid posts, both interesting points. If they get combined though, they give rise to the problem with such accounts.

Hypothetically a worm gets swallowed, the head is intact, the worm won't die from the injury of being chewed once or twice. It is in the stomach of the gecko, a corrosive environment but the digestive acids of reptiles are relatively weak (their digestion is more enzyme action). The superworm has a low oxygen requirement but it does have one. The rate at which they can chew and the distance and tissues they'd need to get through are where the problem lies. They can bite, they have mandibles... it's a matter of being able to bite through the things they'd have to chew through before being killed by the corrosive, relatively anaerobic environment.

The specific circumstances which would have to come together in order to make it possible are extremely remote. The worm biting exactly the right spots with the time it has, the gecko swallowing air or somehow facilitating gas exchange inside its stomach, in a lizard with a low functioning digestive system. Sufficiently improbable and complex that I'm comfortable rejecting the idea in casual conversation.*

On the other hand... statistical improbability is not an impossibility, each attempt is unique and there have been how many geckos fed how many worms for how many years? A geekbeard who throws as many dice as I do as a recreational activity** probably shouldn't confuse long odds with impossibilities.

*I kind of feel like I should cite Occam's Razor here, but it's so often misunderstood that it might have been... better if I didn't write this footnote? Then again, you two are smarter than me so I'm only gambling on exposure.

**I'm complicated.

 

[M_surinamensis]

They have no ability to filter water, or any other liquid out of their lungs. You can test this but just running a small stream of water over a worms face in the sink and it will be dead within 10 seconds.

You are aware that they do not breathe through their faces, right? You wrote a good post on the subject, but the spiracles aren't located in the head.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

funny that nobody ever seems to collect photographic evidence.
i had one gecko killed by superworms and i took several photos.

i am a skeptic.
prove me wrong.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/elapid/2562588984/in/set-72157603922434714

dead gecko from superworm 'attack'.

Good photos, a shame for such an incident. It's never a good idea to have loose feeders roaming about that could potentially cause harm to our animals, whether it's crickets or superworms.

I have had one injury from an eaten superworm. Half of the worm was regurgitated with blood. I immediately spoke with my vet about this, as it was alarming to see the bloodpool. The gecko was a voracious eater and after a few weeks of much more cautious table manners, she was beginning to get back to herself and has made a full recovery.

 

[Kotori]

I considered a troll, but it is possible for this to have happened...I just wish the guy would come back- otherwise it's probably a troll, since who would make a thread like this then abandon it? 'Help! what did I do wrong?' then never coming back?

I dunno, but I would like to see a pic, just to prove it happened...He mentioned feeding him large, which would not be a good idea with a 6 inch gecko...Mines that and the biggest I feed is medium mealworms.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I have fed supers since I got my leo. I pinch them first with tweezers to sun them and I have seen supers die just from that pinch so I would presume it would be very difficult for a super to survive the trip down the gullet. They're only super in name not in construction. If you leave free range feeders in your viv it's only asking for tragedy in the long run as any feeder will go after your herp if you don't leave food in there for the feeders. People don't usually think about their herp being food for their feeders or providing secondary food outlets for live feeders left in the viv for your herp.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I considered a troll, but it is possible for this to have happened...I just wish the guy would come back- otherwise it's probably a troll, since who would make a thread like this then abandon it? 'Help! what did I do wrong?' then never coming back?

Assuming he is not a troll and all the less than sympathetic accusations of being one, would you come back?

 

[fl_orchidslave]

I don't think it was a troll

 

[geckogirl3]

When ever you feed a gecko a bug, gut load them. This way they are not hungry and do not eat your gecko. The same thing can happen with ANY BUG. 2 geckos in a cage is another idea but not 2 males together (they fight to the death).
Hope this helps.
geckogirl3

 

[Kotori]

Assuming he is not a troll and all the less than sympathetic accusations of being one, would you come back?

Honestly? I would, if so just to prove I'm not a troll. If this really happened (Which I do believe, but trolls should be considered) I would want everyone to know it is true and keep it from happening to others. I've heard of this happening before because of feeders left in cage, but never from being eaten, so I wanted to cover all bases.

I'd elaborate about opposing viewpoints, but that would seem like overkill, so I'll leave it at this: Even if you believe one thing, don't rule the other thing out.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Even if you believe one thing, don't rule the other thing out.

Exactly!

 

[acharpenter]

Geek is staying on mealworms from here on out - I am just not willing to chance anything.

Is the possibility lessened or even exist for this to happen with a mealworm?

 

[Adirondackgeckos]

I lost a juvie last season to a super. About 4 hrs after feeding I went to turn lights out and saw blood on the papertowels in his bin. It was my very first Black Hole and I was devistated. Their he laid with a big hole in his stomach with his inners hanging out and a bloody trail from him to a superworm in the corner. I did witness him (leo) eating the super, I fed it to him. I was reluctant to post what happened on any of the forums because of non-belivers and wanting proof and all that goes with some of these subjects, but felt the need now.
All supers now get hand fed with heads off, not just pinched.............off.
So to the OP I am very sorry that you had to witness this and I hope your son is ok and understands nature is not always peachy, but a lesson learned.

 

[roger]

I considered a troll, but it is possible for this to have happened...I just wish the guy would come back- otherwise it's probably a troll, since who would make a thread like this then abandon it? 'Help! what did I do wrong?' then never coming back?

I dunno, but I would like to see a pic, just to prove it happened...He mentioned feeding him large, which would not be a good idea with a 6 inch gecko...Mines that and the biggest I feed is medium mealworms.

Take all feeders out of enclosures

 

[geckogirl3]

Geek is staying on mealworms from here on out - I am just not willing to chance anything.

Is the possibility lessened or even exist for this to happen with a mealworm?

yes

 

[Neill]

*cough TROLL cough*

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I was reluctant to post what happened on any of the forums because of non-belivers and wanting proof and all that goes with some of these subjects, but felt the need now.

I believe this is the case for the others I know of that have experienced this as well.

 

[leolovinfamily]

Me again

I'm sorry I did not re-post after my original post. I did read replies the first week and then didn't remember how to get back here or take the time to get back. So I apologize. This did indeed happen... I think some of you thought this wasn't real (troll?) but it did, and we are still sad at the loss.

Follow up: I took the lizard back into the pet store at their request the following day so they could examine her. The pet store guy (hardly qualified, I know... this is a chain establishment) confirmed the death and gave us a $100 refund. He said he had never seen that before with the size gecko we had and the type of worms we fed her. I should clarify because I also returned the worms that they were NOT "supers". They were regular wax worms. The sales person clarified that for me. We had never fed her anything but mealworms, so I didn't realize that there was such important distinction in larval types. But now we know.

Also, I am 100% sure that she ate the three worms. We watched her eat them. I thought maybe she could have regurgitated them, but there were no worms around when we realized what was happening 1/2 hour later. Plus the hole in her side didn't look like those other Flickr photos, where it looks like the gecko was bitten. I didn't think to take photos... you're right. I should have. I didn't realize at that moment that this was an un-common event... I thought we just made a terrible mistake. But I can tell you it was pretty gruesome. There was blood around her mouth and her anus as well as the hole about 3/4 of the way down her torso on her side, and she started to shed instantly. So it was ugly and confusing. But let me assure you this did really happen to us. My son wants to take the gift card back and get another gecko right away, but we're giving it some time and researching this forum a lot closer before we give it another go. I love these geckos but feel terrible about what happened and need to really research leo care before we try again. I'm glad this forum is out there to help. Thanks.

 

[acpart]

I'm glad you made it back here. This is the second time tonight I've read about a gecko dying from ingesting a waxworm that bit it (the other was on another forum). If anyone else has any additional info that would be helpful. If and when you decide to get another gecko, I'd recommend you go for another older juvie and get it from a breeder. Please feel free to ask more questions and I'm sure we'll be happy to answer.

Aliza