Pit Bulls are Evil

[Chewbecca]

nrich,

YES, you CAN train/manage a dog's dog aggression, but once you are aware that a dog IS dog aggressive, you should NEVER trust it off leash around another dog.

That would be setting a dog up for failure.

You CANNOT train predisposed genetic traits OUT of an animal.
You CAN, however, manage it.

 

[paulnj]

:main_rolleyes:I rescued 9 pitbulls that were thrown away fighting dogs from newark NJ when they were brought in to a KILL shelter that kills ALL pits and fighting dogs to keep them from ending up in the same situation again.

I broke them of dog aggression, broke them of fear fighting, broke them of fear of stranger.... 8 went to families with kids, 1 stayed with me and the mastiffs. That was 15 years ago and I had 6 acres back then.

NOBODY can tell me you can't train an old dog to do new tricks. Love and an established ALPHA owner works wonders. My neo was a rescue as a puppy(fighting ring) , my tosa was a male abused guard dog for a drug dealer (they cost 2500+ ) and the rest were obviously abused in some unknown way. They all loved me to death, though my tosa inu guarded Michelle if I raised my voice...

 

[Chewbecca]

Well.
I guess I just haven't established that "ALPHA" position with my dog then.
Because if left to her own devices, she would tear a dog up.
:main_rolleyes:


Under my control, though, and on a LEASH around other dogs, she may get barky, but I can get her to sit next to me.



And again, JUST BECAUSE a dog is dog aggressive, does NOT make it a bad dog.
And it certainly does NOT mean that it is human aggressive.


Paul, it's possible that your dogs weren't truly dog aggressive.
See, the thing about dogs is, when they fear something, they can put up a hell of a front.
They can act so mean and that's where the statement "All bark and no bite" comes from.


My dog? She's truly dog aggressive.
She can see a dog on leash a block away and the fur on her back stands straight up and she starts acting like she's going to flip out.
I then redirect her and we continue on our walk.


I've taken my dog to a trainer for TWO years and we've worked on desensitization and we've worked on constructional aggression treatment which is negative reinforcement training at its finest (NOT to be confused with positive punishment training which=popping prong collars, smacking, hitting, anything that would be giving the dog something to make it feel bad).

You cannot train true dog aggression OUT of a dog.
You can work with it, around it, on top of it, manage it, but you cannot train it OUT of a dog.

 

[Next Level Geckos]

what about socialization as a puppy around people? Im not sure if it fits in but people who live down the street have lab, cute as can be, and one time they were walking him. I don't even pay attention to the dog and bam, the next thing i now he is hanging on to my arm. I asked if he was socialized as a puppy, and they said not really because he was biting kids as a puppy.
He barks at every single person, and back hairs spike up, which is not a good sign.

:behead:

 

[Chewbecca]

What about socialization around people as a puppy?

Is there a connection with that and dog aggression?

I'm lost.:main_laugh:

 

[Next Level Geckos]

What about socialization around people as a puppy?

Is there a connection with that and dog aggression?

I'm lost.:main_laugh:

I have no Idea lol

 

[Barbel]

Oye! There is so much I have to say about this topic I could type pages and pages!
Pit haters make me so angry! They obviously are very ignorant people that base their beliefs on media, myth and rumor. They also have obviously not spent any type of quality time with pit bulls, because anyone who has knows that a pit bull's heart is made of gold and just loves to be loved and loves to give love.
I also do NOT believe that all pit bulls have a "something in them" or are genetically disposed to aggression that you just to manage. Some of you have said, like there are people who are just mean, there are dogs who are just mean. Though that is true, those people and those dogs were not born mean or nasty. A series of negative events throughout their lives molded them and created the horrible beings that they have become. If they were born mean, they would show signs of aggression as puppies/babies and how many aggressive puppies/babies do you see? Yes, there are people/animals born with mental disorders, but if someone believes all pits are just born mean, then you would have to assume they would all have a mental disorder, which is clearly not true.
I think dogs and cats in general are WAY too excessable to people. Most people that have pets, really have no business owning an animal at all. They get this cute little puppy or kitten, usually on a whim with little to no research. Then the puppy starts chewing up shoes or the kitten scratches up their furniture and instead of taking the time to fix the problem, they just get rid of it and try again with another pet. This is why the average dog lives with 7 different families throughout its life and why so many animals are euthinized in shelters everyday.
Dogs especially take a lot of time and work and it just doesn't happen overnight! People are always amazed at how well mannered our pets are. We work with them daily to keep their behavior in check and to make sure they know the rules, which they do.
I have been around pit bulls for most of my life and I have yet to meet a mean one. My currant pit loves all animals and people. She let my pet rats crawl all over her, including her face and in between her feet, she's walked around with a juvie ball python on her shoulders a few times, she snuggles up with our doxie mix every night and she lets our kitten nurse on her lip without the slightest flinch.
Pit bulls are special beautiful dogs that are so misunderstood and mistreated.
I hope the bad opinion of them starts to change soon, before they are banned in even more places.

 

[Chewbecca]

ACK.

For the 4th or 5th time:

Dog aggression and human aggression are NOT the same thing.

To deny that these dogs were BRED to fight other DOGS in a ring for over 200 years is CRAZY.
And it's going to cause people to set their pit bulls up for FAILURE.

My dog is dog aggressive, but she ADORES humans.
A human could do ANYTHING to her and she would NOT bite them.
She loves my kids, she loves their friends, she loves us, she loves my elderly neighbors and becomes INSTANT BFFs with anyone on our walks that allows her to be their new BFF.

She LOVES people.


She just HATES other dogs.

 

[Next Level Geckos]

ACK.

For the 4th or 5th time:

Dog aggression and human aggression are NOT the same thing.

To deny that these dogs were BRED to fight other DOGS in a ring for over 200 years is CRAZY.
And it's going to cause people to set their pit bulls up for FAILURE.

My dog is dog aggressive, but she ADORES humans.
A human could do ANYTHING to her and she would NOT bite them.
She loves my kids, she loves their friends, she loves us, she loves my elderly neighbors and becomes INSTANT BFFs with anyone on our walks that allows her to be their new BFF.

She LOVES people.


She just HATES other dogs.

Im sorry, like i said ignore my foolish comment.

 

[Chewbecca]

No, no, no. I wasn't trying to be mean with that.
I just feel like so many people in this thread are generalizing aggression.
It's important, to me as a responsible pit bull owner, that people understand that human aggression and dog aggression are NOT the same thing.
A dog can be dog aggressive and NOT be a blood thirsty monster waiting for an opportunity to eat your baby.

Im sorry, like i said ignore my foolish comment.

 

[Next Level Geckos]

I did not take it offensivly, I just want my foolish comment to be ignored. LOL.

 

[leonut]

nrich,

YES, you CAN train/manage a dog's dog aggression, but once you are aware that a dog IS dog aggressive, you should NEVER trust it off leash around another dog.

That would be setting a dog up for failure.

You CANNOT train predisposed genetic traits OUT of an animal.
You CAN, however, manage it.

I belive you might be confusing aggression with dominance. Dominance can be "trained" out of a dog by in turn being more dominant then the dog is himself and "training" him to be submisive to other dogs. I also do not believe aggressoin is a "predisposed genetic trait", I believe it is (quote dictionary.com) "the practice of making assaults or attacks; offensive action in general." that ties in with the emotion anger that all dogs go though. True, some dogs are more prone to anger than others, but that doesn't render them "unfixable". You can train them not to be aggressive when they are angry/dominant. As for not being able to "train" aggression out of a dog, you should check out some "dog whisperer" episodes. Here's one featuring a pitbull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6ru7QLEYD4&feature=channel

And one with another "naturally aggressive" dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXPkSZ7gBTk

 

[paulnj]

I will not debate this topic ....

We are on the same page that APBT are falsely accused of being bad dogs.

Sure human aggression is different than animal aggression.

 

[Next Level Geckos]

I read this thread all wrong. Thanks for clearing it up paul.I forgot it had to do with pits.

 

[Chewbecca]

I belive you might be confusing aggression with dominance. Dominance can be "trained" out of a dog by in turn being more dominant then the dog is himself and "training" him to be submisive to other dogs. I also do not believe aggressoin is a "predisposed genetic trait", I believe it is (quote dictionary.com) "the practice of making assaults or attacks; offensive action in general." that ties in with the emotion anger that all dogs go though. True, some dogs are more prone to anger than others, but that doesn't render them "unfixable". You can train them not to be aggressive when they are angry/dominant. As for not being able to "train" aggression out of a dog, you should check out some "dog whisperer" episodes. Here's one featuring a pitbull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6ru7QLEYD4&feature=channel

And one with another "naturally aggressive" dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXPkSZ7gBTk

Wait.
How am I confusing dominance with aggression???
I am well aware that the two differ from each other.

And you don't think certain traits are genetically predisposed in certain breeds?

So...most collies do not have an instinct to herd?
Greyhounds aren't good runners?
Ever talk to people in greyhound rescue? Greyhounds are notorious for being afraid of going down stairs when brought into a new home. They are also notorious for being timid of humans.

What about beagles and bloodhounds? How much training do you think it would take to get them to stick their noses to the ground almost 24/7?
What about labs and retrieving items?


I mean, granted, you're going to have some labs that are more like labrador "observers" rather than labrador retrievers, and sure you may have the occasional collie that might look at you like you're crazy when you try to train them to herd, but most of these dogs were bred with these genetic traits to be carried down and these traits are what originally made these breeds the breeds they are.

American Pit Bull Terriers were bred to fight other dogs in pits for years.
Sure you'll probably find LOTS of "cold" pit bulls who would never in a million years think of touching another dog in an aggressive way.
But more often then you all think, you're going to find pit bulls that have that tendency towards dog aggression.

And if you all THINK that Cesar Milan is the miracle-cure-all for anything dog-related...right.

I've watched Cesar Milan's techniques on television the same as everyone else.
I'm not a NEW pit bull owner. I'm not NEW to the breed.
I'm not an idiot dog owner that is asking for help for my dog's dog aggression because she all of a sudden bit Fluffy the poodle at the dog park and "OHMYGOD WHAT DO I DO???"


I choose NOT to toss my dog into situations where I have to force her to be set up for FAILURE.
I'm not saying lock your pit bulls up in your houses and NEVER expose them to other dogs.
I'm simply saying do it responsibly, NOT at a dog park where it's a VERY uncontrolled environment.
KNOW THE BREED.
KNOW that they ARE pre-disposed for dog aggression.
DON'T deny it. Deal with it. Be prepared and be CAREFUL when your dog is around other dogs.
BE SMART.
Keep a break stick handy in case your dog decides to scrap with another.
And lastly, if anyone here takes their pit bull to a dog park and it even participates in a scrap with another dog, please make sure it's YOUR state and not MINE. I'd like to keep MY dog and do NOT wish to have anymore laws made on these dogs because SOMEONE had to show EVERYONE at a dog park how misunderstood their pit bull was and HAD to let him play with Fluffy the puggle and Francis the poodle, and Sammy the beagle and one of the owners brought a ball with or one of these dogs looked wrong at the other and a fight breaks out.

And Paul, I'm applaud you for taking in 9 pit bulls and rehabbing them and placing them in loving, forever homes.
I honestly think that's awesome.
I'm not here to debate.
I stumbled upon this thread, and read some things that I felt needed to be addressed.
I'm not trying to fight with anyone.
I'm trying to state facts because this breed has a very bad reputation.
What people see and what people DO are two different things.
Some things said in this thread are dreamy, but not necessarily true and could possibly harm these dogs than simply facing the truth and history of them and realizing these dogs are some of the best damn dogs anyone could ever own.

 

[leonut]

Let me first say, I don't want to fight, I'm simply stating my opinion. (Also I had a longer argument prepared but I accidentily deleted it. :angry

And you don't think certain traits are genetically predisposed in certain breeds?

So...most collies do not have an instinct to herd?
Greyhounds aren't good runners?
Ever talk to people in greyhound rescue? Greyhounds are notorious for being afraid of going down stairs when brought into a new home. They are also notorious for being timid of humans.

I never said pits don't have predisposed genetic traits (or any of those other dogs for that matter). Pits were most likely originaly bred for bullbaiting, reqiuring a persistant dog (in other words a thickheaded dog) which leads to frustration which leads to aggression. So I guess you could say aggression is a genetic trait but I think it goes further.

American Pit Bull Terriers were bred to fight other dogs in pits for years.
Sure you'll probably find LOTS of "cold" pit bulls who would never in a million years think of touching another dog in an aggressive way.
But more often then you all think, you're going to find pit bulls that have that tendency towards dog aggression.

I have a hard time believe they were bred for the sole purpose of dog fighting.
I think it was more like when the police force noticed how german shepards, a herding breed, bite so well (2nd strongest bite in the AKC I believe) and decided to use them to chase down runawy criminals.

And if you all THINK that Cesar Milan is the miracle-cure-all for anything dog-related...right.

I've watched Cesar Milan's techniques on television the same as everyone else.

Actually, I believe there a some dogs he CAN'T help, BUT I think these dogs have SERIOUS problems. Normal dogs CAN be helped by his methods if executed corectly. In fact, I live in a neighborhood with several stray dogs and his methods have saved me from being bitten several times.

I'm not a NEW pit bull owner. I'm not NEW to the breed.
I'm not an idiot dog owner that is asking for help for my dog's dog aggression because she all of a sudden bit Fluffy the poodle at the dog park and "OHMYGOD WHAT DO I DO???"

I never assumed you were and I'm really sorry that you got that vibe from me.

I'm not saying lock your pit bulls up in your houses and NEVER expose them to other dogs.
I'm simply saying do it responsibly, NOT at a dog park where it's a VERY uncontrolled environment.
KNOW THE BREED.
KNOW that they ARE pre-disposed for dog aggression.
DON'T deny it. Deal with it. Be prepared and be CAREFUL when your dog is around other dogs.
BE SMART.
Keep a break stick handy in case your dog decides to scrap with another.
And lastly, if anyone here takes their pit bull to a dog park and it even participates in a scrap with another dog, please make sure it's YOUR state and not MINE. I'd like to keep MY dog and do NOT wish to have anymore laws made on these dogs because SOMEONE had to show EVERYONE at a dog park how misunderstood their pit bull was and HAD to let him play with Fluffy the puggle and Francis the poodle, and Sammy the beagle and one of the owners brought a ball with or one of these dogs looked wrong at the other and a fight breaks out..

I agree, because they have more danger pontential they must be watched more carefully.

I certainly hope no hard feelings were generated by this thread. I try to make it a point to get to know the people I "discuss" things with.

 

[nrich]

I'm pretty sure that the Bull Dog originally was bred for bull baiting (thus the name). The original Bulldog was a much larger, more agile dog than it current incarnation, which is overly stocky and practically disfigured in comparison. Pits were originally a mix between a Bull dog and some sort of terrier or other small dog. Basically, they wanted the similar body type with a sharper mind. They were bred to be farm dogs and to hunt.

I completely agree with you that people must KNOW their dogs and obviously you know yours. You are obviously a very careful and loving owner. I absolutely applaud your responsible attitude and I wish there were more people like you out there protecting their animals and other people from what could be a very dangerous situation.

That being said, and keep in mind that I am not trying to argue and am only stating my opinion as a pet owner, dog rescuer, and former AKC breeder of large dogs, saying that an entire breed of dog is pre-disposed towards aggression, based on your own experiences with the breed, is a blanket statement. Every dog is different, specifically because pits are not a true breed of dog. They are a mix. Most pits really could be any type of dog with bulldog in it's lineage, be that bulldog and lab, bulldog and Chihuahua, or bulldog and beagle, or a bulldog and a lab and a dachshund etc. The only determining factor of what makes a dog a "pitbull" is the characteristic shape of its head. Saying that a pit is predisposed to aggression towards dogs or otherwise is saying that all mutt dogs are likely predisposed as well.

If you are going by American statistics of dog bights for this "predisposed" fact, I have to point out that those stats are dramatically skewed. Firstly, larger dog bites are more likely to be reported for statistics simply because they cause more damage. I guarantee that there are more terrier and small dog attacks than large dog attacks. People just don't report them because they don't require as much medical attention (plus people think it's cute to see their little Chihuahua try to take off some other dog's ear). Secondly, when people are bitten by a large, mixed breed dog they are more likely "predisposed" to call that dog a pit because that's supposed to be the "danger breed." I can't tell you how many people I have seen in the shelter drop off dogs that they were calling pits that were actually some sort of lab mix. Thirdly, if you look at those skewed statistics you will see that a majority of dog bites occur in urban, low income settings where people are more likely to purchase and train dogs for aggression. Which brings us back to the statement that it's the owners that are the main problem. Not the dogs.

I also hope no hard feelings were generated by this thread. There certainly is no harm in having a healthy and insightful discussion on a topic. It's obvious that we are all animal lovers here and that is what really matters in the end.

 

[Chewbecca]

Yes, I am also well aware that the "original" bull dog was bred for bull baiting, and that APBTs come from those lines.
But I'm talking about AFTER bull baiting was outlawed.
These dogs were bred for pit fighting.

And I don't get the whole these dogs are mixed labs and whatever that statement was.
You lost me there.

I'm talking about American Pit Bull Terriers (which I call "pit bulls" for short).
I'm not talking about any dog with a big head which is EXACTLY why and how the media says every dog attack is a pit bull attack. Because they think anything with a big head and stocky body is a pit bull.


And it's NOT just MY personal experience with this breed.
It's MILLIONS of responsible owners' experience with this breed.
It's Bad Rap's experience. It's PBRC's Experience (http://www.pbrc.net/).
And it's NOT just "Agression". It's DOG aggression.
I'm not talking about a dog who goes out and attacks people.
I'm talking about a dog that dislikes other dogs and attacks other dogs.

As I said, and I just don't feel like it's being understood, that dogs can be dog aggressive and NOT human aggressive.
Just because a dog attacks another dog, doesn't mean that same dog will destroy a human.
Two different types of aggression. Totally unrelated to each other.
And I know ALL about the dog bite statistics and how they're skewed.
I did a research paper on pit bulls in college and had to cite all of this stuff.
So I am well aware that the majority of dog bites to a human are not even pit bulls. Any breed that is not identifiable to the authorities is labeled a "pit bull".
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/
http://www.atts.org/stats1.html


But I'm not talking about pit bull and human interactions. I'm talking about pit bull and other DOG interactions.

 

[nrich]

"Yes, I am also well aware that the "original" bull dog was bred for bull baiting, and that APBTs come from those lines."

sorry, I was writing that in response to leonut.

"I'm talking about American Pit Bull Terriers (which I call "pit bulls" for short).
I'm not talking about any dog with a big head which is EXACTLY why and how the media says every dog attack is a pit bull attack. Because they think anything with a big head and stocky body is a pit bull."

No, I get that. What I meant by my lab/bulldog comment was that more than likely most of the dogs that most people call pure bred "pit bulls" are actually not pure bred. What is now called the American Bull terrier has a lineage that dates back very, very far and is very well documented. The real American Bull terrier is a very expensive dog and breeders are very protective of their bloodline. The fact is, most people are not going to be picking up a pure bred American Bull terrier from their local pound. 99% of the time, it's going to be a pit bastardized with some other dog such as a lab, chi, etc. I honestly think it is the other half of the mix, the unknown, that causes most of the problems. Imagine a chihuahua brain inside a pit bull's body. Scary.

 

[crestedgeckogirly]

Ok, I'm going to TRY to keep my comments brief.

On the issue of dog parks and pit bulls (referring to APBT's):

I think a really HUGE thing to consider is that even if your dog (pit bull) didn't START the fight, they're going to be blamed for it. PERIOD.

So, you can even avoid the issue of whether they are all DA (DA=Dog Aggressive) or not. If you want to make sure the breed that many of us know and love doesn't continue to have bad stuff said about it and stereotypes made and seemingly confirmed, you WON'T take it to a dog park. Someone on here said how a small dog bit a large dogs ear...you were lucky. If your dog had reacted it sure wouldn't have mattered WHO started it...the bigger dog (especially if it were a pit bull, although I think the specific reference was to a rottie) would have been blamed for it.

Why not avoid this? Why RISK something happening and having worse laws, views, and opinions towards our loving friends? How is going to a dog park worth the potential outcome, nomatter how small the risk is in your mind? Let me repeat...if you go to a dog park with your pit bull (APBT) and just about any other dog starts a fight YOUR dog is going to be blamed. YOUR dog will make news headlines. YOUR dog's LIFE will hang in the balance. It doesn't matter that he had nothing to do with starting the fight. Are you really willing to risk your dog's LIFE by trusting TOTAL STRANGERS that their dog won't attack yours???? Something to think about.


Ok, wanted to keep all that seperate. On the matter of dog AGGRESSION. It's aggression, not dominance. Anyone that has worked with a DA dog knows this. A dog that is simply being dominant does not have the desire to rip another dog apart just at the sight of it. That's aggression, I'm sorry. That's why it's called Dog AGGRESSION. Not Dog Dominance....

Want to emphasize what has already been said about the difference between DOG aggression and HUMAN aggression. Pit bulls were not bred to be PEOPLE aggressive. That was purposely bred out of them for reasons chewbecca has already stated. Most DA pit bulls are the sweetest most loving HUMAN companions you will find. We need to make sure people realize this. It's not a minor technicality. It's a HUGE difference.

Lastly a truly DA dog cannot have the behavior trained out of it. It can be dealt with, but it's always there. It's something you have to admit and take responsibility for. That way you give your dog the best possible chance to succeed in every aspect of it's life. That's what a responsible, loving owner does...sets up their dog for success, not failure.

I also live with a DA pit bull mix (APBT, not lab since there was some confusion over this). He is the sweetest, most loving companion I could ever ask for. Loves children, loves people, loves other animals. Just HATES other dogs (true since of the word).

Just my two cents. Take it or leave it. If you really care about the reputation of our beloved breed, you'll take it.

-Andrea