raptors

[LeoGeckos]

What would the baby percentages be when a het raptor x a het raptor is bred?

 

[Mel&Keith]

Variable. It's not a simple ressesive trait like patternless or albino, it's a combination of ressesives and polygenic traits so the possible outcomes are numerous and fairly unpredictable. I'm sure other members can add what their outcomes have been.

 

[okapi]

are they albinos? if they are albinos het raptor then they can produce red eyes. If they are non-albinos then there is a possibility but the chances are not as high. Also with the "Raptor" morph there are many traits: tangerine, stripe, reverse stripe, carrot head, carrot tail, tremper albino, eclipse, giant (sometimes... RT used giants to produce raptors but not all of them have to be giants), and jungle. To be a true "Raptor" they have to be expressing all of those traits at once. The red eyes are caused by two genes being expressed at the same time: eclipse and albino. Some people call everything with red eyes "raptors" but a true raptor has to be Red eyed, patternless, tremper albino, and orange all over its body.

To answer your question:
Albino het eclipse X albino het eclipse:
25% red eyes
50% albino het eclipse
25% albino

Non-albino het eclipse and albino X non-albino het eclipse and albino:
3/16 non hets
3/16 het albino only
3/16 het eclipse only
1/16 albino
2/16 albino het eclipse
1/16 eclipse
2/16 eclipse het albino
1/16 red eyed

As for all of the polygenetic traits, they will be randomly expressed. You could get any combination of the traits fully or partly expressed in each gecko.

My goal is to produce some nice Red eyed reverse stripes (R.E.R.S.) with bright tangerine body color, a light whitish reverse stripe that goes from the neck ring to the tail, a great carrot tail, a bright carrot head, and two solid red eyes.

Im working with a giant tangerine jungle albino with a nice carrot tail and carrot head who is het for eclipse and Reverse stripe. He is breeding with a beautiful giant tangerine albino with an awsome carrot head, some carroting on the tail, and a 66% chance of being het eclipse and most likely is "het" for jungle, stripe, and reverse stripe. She was produced by Paul (brightalbino) from a giant tangerine jungle with a carrot tail and carrot head who is 100% het eclipse bred to a tangerine albino(?) het raptor (het aptor and eclipse). Since both my breeders are from the "Raptor" line, they have a high likelyness of producing anything from that line. I know for a fact that all hatchlings will be carrot head, carrot tail, tangerine albinos, and 3/4 will be giant (out of that 1 would be a super giant). Then there is a good chance that I will get red eyes and any of the stripe/reverse stripe/jungle patterns. Basically if your working with "het" raptors, you can get just about anything, but all will be very attractive geckos.

 

[LeoGeckos]

so is albino het eclipse same as albino het raptor???...and what if one is an albino het raptor and the other one is just het raptor not albino...

 

[okapi]

so is albino het eclipse same as albino het raptor???...and what if one is an albino het raptor and the other one is just het raptor not albino...

"Raptors" are red eyed A.P.T.O.R.s. Every one calls a gecko het for eclipse a "het raptor" because thats what RT started calling them. But to be a "Raptor" is has to be an APTOR with eclipsed eyes. Hopefully in the future people will start saying het eclipse, because alot of people ive talked to seem to think that the whole "Raptor" morph is a single gene, when all they are really talking about is the single gene that controls the amount of pigment in the eyes. Technically they should be labeled het eclipse but it might take a while before people start using that term more often. If an albino is het for eclipse it could produce red eyes if bred to the right mate (another gecko with both the eclipse and tremper albino genes). If one does not have the tremper albino gene, it cannot produce red eyes.

Albino het eclipse X normal het eclipse:
25% eclipse het albino
50% het albino and eclipse
25% het albino

So there would be no red eyes, because to have those the gecko would have to be both an albino and an eclipse at the same time.

 

[LeoGeckos]

oh ok that makes sense, but now that i know what the percentages will be, is it hard to recognize which is which....like how can you tell that a gecko is het eclipse....is it just through breeding...and you would know if its an eclipse because it would have full black eyes, correct?

thanks so much for your help

 

[okapi]

oh ok that makes sense, but now that i know what the percentages will be, is it hard to recognize which is which....like how can you tell that a gecko is het eclipse....is it just through breeding...and you would know if its an eclipse because it would have full black eyes, correct?

thanks so much for your help

The only way to know for sure that a gecko is het for any recessive gene would be to A) know that one parent was homozygous for the trait or B) know from test breeding the "possible het" to other hets or a homozygous example of the trait in question.

A homozygous eclipse would have either solid eyes, or snake eyes. Not enough is known about the gene to understand what caused snake eyes, but as of right now snake eyes are considered to be eclipses.

Np for the help, I love talking genetics :main_yes:
im a biology major, and having a living example instead of "gene A" and "gene B" is alot more fun :main_thumbsup:

 

[bamsd619]

Okay Daniel... I need to pick your brain again (and thanks in advance). I have just put together a group of wonderful jungle tremper albino HET Raptor. What can I expect to get (percentage as your layed out in prior posts).

Thanks man!

 

[LeoGeckos]

hey daniel,

im going to pick your brain again....so im looking to buy 2 het raptors from a breeder. The breeder said that the father of the ones im looking to buy was a raptor and the mother was just a tangerine tremper albino. After reading this thread its my understanding that there is no way he would know if the babies are 100% het for raptor that he is selling me. am i correct? he says that they are 100% het for raptor. so im a bit hesitant to buy after reading this thread. let me know whats correct. thanks ill attach the pics of the ones im looking to buy...thanks

 

[okapi]

Okay Daniel... I need to pick your brain again (and thanks in advance). I have just put together a group of wonderful jungle tremper albino HET Raptor. What can I expect to get (percentage as your layed out in prior posts).

Thanks man!

Jungle Tremper albino het raptors. Are they also tangerine, carrot tailed, and carrot head?

The Raptor morph consists of these traits:
Tremper albino (recessive)
Tangerine (polygenetic)
Carrot tail (polygenetic)
Carrot head (polygenetic)
Stripe (polygenetic)
Jungle (polygenetic)
Reverse stripe (polygenetic)
Giant (co-dominant)
Eclipse (recessive)
(poly = many, genetic = controled by genes, polygenetic = controlled by many genes)
When the breeder says "het Raptor" they mean that it is het for eclipse.
Since all of your breeders are tremper albinos, all the babies will be too. Im assuming yours dont have the giant gene? RT was aiming more for intense color so not all of his Raptors are giant, but some of the foundation breeders used for his R/APTOR project were. But since you didnt mention it Ill just assume all of yours are normal sized.

For the eyes, you just draw up a one gene punnett square:
E = dominant
e = recessive
....E...e
E..EE..Ee
e..Ee..ee

You get:
25% EE (no mutant gene at all)
50% Ee (het for eclipse)
25% ee (Eclipsed)
So roughly you can expect one out of every four hatchlings to have red eyes.

For the rest of the traits, its just a coin toss and alot of luck. Since they are polygenetic there is no set rule for predicting how they will be expressed. It is known that the jungle trait is dominant over the striped trait, which is dominant over the reverse stripe trait. When they are expressed at the same time they cancel eachother out and leave a patternless body (the P in APTOR). This is called "patternless stripe." Then the carrot head, carrot tail, and tangerine traits would all most likely be expressed, im sure they are expressed in some degree on your breeders? Basically since the RAPTOR morph is composed of so many variable traits, no one can predict what will pop out. Just go to a website of someone who breeds raptors and look at all the "raptor hets" to get an idea of what could be produced. Also look at RT's Raptor/Aptor/Eclipse page, and albino page, and giant page. It seems to me that red eyed reverse stripes are hatching out in some numbers, and thats what I hope to hatch. My raptor project (im working with "hets" too) will suprise me :main_yes: Ive got two eggs already that I cant wait to hatch so I can see what randomness the raptor morph produced for me. Thats pretty much what anyone who has bred "het" raptors togeather will tell you too

 

[okapi]

hey daniel,

im going to pick your brain again....so im looking to buy 2 het raptors from a breeder. The breeder said that the father of the ones im looking to buy was a raptor and the mother was just a tangerine tremper albino. After reading this thread its my understanding that there is no way he would know if the babies are 100% het for raptor that he is selling me. am i correct? he says that they are 100% het for raptor. so im a bit hesitant to buy after reading this thread. let me know whats correct. thanks ill attach the pics of the ones im looking to buy...thanks

If one parent was a raptor, then they are het for eclipse and can produce red eyes. Since the mother is also a tremper albino then they will certianly be able to produce red eyes if bred to the right mate. What he means when he says "100% het raptor" is there is a 100% chance that they have the eclipse gene in the heterozygous state. If he says 100% and lists the parentage then you know they are het for the gene. What I ment when I said they cant be het for "raptor" was that they cant be het for R.A.P.T.O.R. Everyone is thinking of the eyes only when they say Raptor, but that is just one piece of the puzzle. The raptor morph is the product of many polygenetic and recessive traits (and one co-dom if you have giants). Technically there is no such thing as "het" when it comes to polygenetic traits. They can be carrying most of the genes that cause it in some combination, but getting them to fully express the trait a few generations down the road is hard when they have been outbred. All im trying to say is people expect to breed a "het raptor" to a "het raptor" and produce 25% Red eyed Albino Patternless Tremper line ORanges. That is very unlikely because there are too many variables. The only genes in that morph that can be accuratly predicted are the giant, albino, and eclipse gene. The rest are pretty much random. But if your definition of raptor is eclipse, then yes, they can produce eclipses and are het for eclipse.

The two you pictured are beautiful. If their father was a R.A.P.T.O.R. then they can produce red eyes.

 

[okapi]

Albino het eclipse X normal het eclipse:
25% eclipse het albino
50% het albino and eclipse
25% het albino

So there would be no red eyes, because to have those the gecko would have to be both an albino and an eclipse at the same time.

Is this what confused you about the geckos you want to produce? The reason the above example would not produce red eyes is because one of the parents doesnt have the tremper albino gene. To have red eyes the geckos have to be homozygous for both tremper albino and eclipse. Since one of the parents in this example was not albino, and was not even het for it, none of the babies can be albino. And if they are not albino then the eclipse gene is expressed in its black (non-albino) form.

Eclipse expressed = solid black eyes
Albino expressed = no black
Eclipse and albino expressed at the same time = solid eyes with no black pigment

Less confusing now?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Cool thread, gang!

 

[okapi]

:main_yes: I love this section of geckoforums.net

 

[bamsd619]

Daniel you are amazing! Thanks for the info in detail. It looks like I am looking to buy from the same guy as LeoGeckos. I have already bought a nice het raptor male and female. Looking forward to what I get!

B

 

[marula]

yes! daniel is a great addiction at geckoforum!

 

[SaSobek]

hi guys im just going to add alittle here just want you guys to be careful. i dont want to be a downer or any thing. people selling animals as "het raptor" "het eclipse" are simply at this point just saying that one of the parents is an eclipse or raptor. because ron tremper said they are simple recessive. i dont belive that is true or that simple. if it was true there would be alot more Raptors out there

1 to think that you can out cross a raptor and breed it to say a banded animal and get "raptor/eclipse hets".
2 then breeding them together to get raptor/ eclipse is a big chance. if the babies are banded its not the 1/4 chance. its more like 1/64 or higher

if some one has had luck breeding het to het i would love to see the results. i have yet to here of any that are from the out crosses that people are selling as "hets" (im talking about banded "hets")

i know breeders that have bread 2 solid red eyed raptors to each other and got aptors no eye pigment at all. there are others that have breed them to each other and got all red eyed animals.
i would be very careful in buying hets.

we cannot treat this as a simple recessive at all think of it more like line breed.

if you can wait, wait till spring and im sure the price of snake eyed animals will come down and get one that you can actually see what it is. that way there is better chance for breeding what you want.

if you are intent on getting a "het" right now get a Patternless stripe looking animal. i think the key to the eyes is in there.

again just trying to help i dont want to see anyone get disappointed.

 

[okapi]

Very true, it is thought that the eclipse gene and stripe traits are somehow linked. There has never been a red eyed banded or eclipse banded. There have been a few jungle red eyes, and ALOT of patternless stripes (RAPTORS), and then there have been a huge number of RERSs (red eyed reverse stripes). More work has to be done with Raptors/eclipses and hets to fully understand the eclipse gene. There could be some trait linkage problems, just like the first blazing blizzards. Its too early to know enough about the RAPTORs, and RT either has no clue about them, or is sitting back laughing every time he looks at a gecko forum or site.

I do believe it to be a recessive though. Trait linkage and bad luck can lower the chances of hatching a given trait. The RAPTOR X RAPTOR breeding producing APTORs is an intresting outcome. I dont know how to explain that, but im sure in them answers will be discovered.

My only theory is that their could be another gene in the mix that is also coded for eye pigment. A gene that maybe controls percentage of pigment produced instead of "off" and "on"... Maybe that also explains snake eyes.

This is why I love RAPTORs so much, they are a genetic puzzle.

 

[LeoGeckos]

thank you so much for your help....so once i get babies from the het raptor x het raptor pairing...like we said before you wont know if one of the babies is het raptor...so how do you sell it...do you just say poss het raptor??

 

[okapi]

yes, 66% possible het