Should geckos with deformities be culled?

[Gecko]

I do have a problem with culling when it's obvious the deformity is small and probably "developmental" as opposed to genetic. Even breeding said animal is OK by me.

 

[Brhaco]

The problem is, it is usually impossible to be sure whether a defect is genetic. For example, many years ago I produced a small clutch of Texas alligator lizards. One of them had a small kink near the tail tip which interfered slightly with it's natural prehensile ability. i didn't cull the animal since I was "certain' that it was a simpe developmental problem and not heritable. I sold the animal for half price to a fellow breeder, who agreed with my assesment.

You guessed it-the first clutch sired by that lizard produced three babies with the identical deformity! He gave away the babies and the adult male as pets.

Brad Chambers

 

[Gecko]

The way I kind of see it people want to cull defects that lower price, but keep the "defects" that raise price. Look at albinos for example. What if the first albinos in Leopard Geckos were culled?

I think it comes from more people wanting to be breeders instead of have pets. That and trying to make reptiles show dogs and cats, etc.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I think it comes from more people wanting to be breeders instead of have pets.

Very good point!

 

[Alusdra]

You know- I've been wondering... it seems that tail kinks are seen as these horrible things. I actually really like tail kinks... and if it's genetic- why not breed for it? Imagine a gecko with a tail so kinked as to be in a spiral- or a lightning bolt pattern... or curled over the back! I think that would be quite neat. I asked a couple people (not gecko owners, just friends) if they thought that would be interesting to see and they were all over it, too. I mean, look at dog breeds. How in the world does a nose so short that the dog can die from asphyxiation be anything but for aesthetics (boxers, pugs, poms, etc.)?

But it doesn't seem that tail kinks interfere in any behaviors (like it did in that prehensile-tailed animal) so why not breed for it? Kinked tails are bred for in many species besides dogs, pigeons... I think there's a breed of rats and mice that have it... chickens probably, cows? I don't know, but imagine what you could get that to do with generations of selective breeding. Then I might actually like those bald yellow geckos (as a personal choice- I like spots and would probably have sold the baldies and kept my thickly black spotted geckos, had I been a breeder) because they could be called 'lightning geckos' or something.

Eye notches- yeah, that interferes with all sorts of necessary functions... but a tail kink? That's downright cool. Had I not already more geckos than I want, I would have come home with a gorgeous and super cheap (best one at the show in my very not-market-savvy eyes) tail-kinked gecko from the MD reptile show this past weekend...

 

[sacredcreatures]

Had I not already more geckos than I want, I would have come home with a gorgeous and super cheap (best one at the show in my very not-market-savvy eyes) tail-kinked gecko from the MD reptile show this past weekend...

That wouldn't happen to be my tail kinked Rainwater Albino would it? Deb

 

[Alusdra]

Probably. I think it was a Rainwater- I ran away ASAP though, so I didn't end up in trouble. It was a very cute little one, but like I said- I'm on a strict self-imposed 'no pet addition' ban. We'll see how long that lasts...

 

[marula]

i vote "Yes, but only if they cannot survive on their own".
like many of you guys know, i'm a dog breeder..i never help any puppy with problems if the mother refuse him/her because i think there is a reason for a mother to do that, and one time i culled a puppy with a genetic defect.
generally animals that born with problems died by their-self...
if not i personally think that an animal that isn't in the condition to be able to do everyting by himself, need to be culled.
help an animal for survive is not "natural" for reptiles. and in most cases is stressfull for the animal.the most important thing is not joke to be a breeder and working with the animal halthy like first goal

 

[gko reptiles]

You know- I've been wondering... it seems that tail kinks are seen as these horrible things. I actually really like tail kinks... and if it's genetic- why not breed for it? Imagine a gecko with a tail so kinked as to be in a spiral- or a lightning bolt pattern... or curled over the back! I think that would be quite neat. I asked a couple people (not gecko owners, just friends) if they thought that would be interesting to see and they were all over it, too. I mean, look at dog breeds. How in the world does a nose so short that the dog can die from asphyxiation be anything but for aesthetics (boxers, pugs, poms, etc.)?

But it doesn't seem that tail kinks interfere in any behaviors (like it did in that prehensile-tailed animal) so why not breed for it? Kinked tails are bred for in many species besides dogs, pigeons... I think there's a breed of rats and mice that have it... chickens probably, cows? I don't know, but imagine what you could get that to do with generations of selective breeding. Then I might actually like those bald yellow geckos (as a personal choice- I like spots and would probably have sold the baldies and kept my thickly black spotted geckos, had I been a breeder) because they could be called 'lightning geckos' or something.

Eye notches- yeah, that interferes with all sorts of necessary functions... but a tail kink? That's downright cool. Had I not already more geckos than I want, I would have come home with a gorgeous and super cheap (best one at the show in my very not-market-savvy eyes) tail-kinked gecko from the MD reptile show this past weekend...

Phillip and I thought the same thing. Years ago, one of our first leopard geckos (I think that he was literally our 6th) had a curly tail; not just kinked, I mean CURLY! And I thought that it was the neatest thing. His name was Hades and he supposedly from the Urban Gecko line (which I don't doubt because his color was absolutely beautiful), so we decided to breed him to another bright hypo that we picked up at a show. We only bred him because we didn't know any better at the time, and even now we're dealing with the consequences.

More than half of his babies had curly/nubbed tails and we thought that they were adorable, little tiny curly tailed hatchlings... we soon came to find out that the curly tail gene also had the genetic line-up for internal problems. Some were eating, but not pooping... sadly enough we ended up having to put a few down because they were simply going to blow up due to the fact that they couldn't poop. It was horrible and I felt terrible about it. So, we decided not to breed him anymore.

The next year, we decided to keep one of his hatchlings who had no curly tail, no kinks, no eyelid problems, she was eating/pooping great, etc. We decided to keep to breed because she was so breathtaking. We figured if there were not physical signs, she probably wouldn't carry the deformed gene which seemed to be genetically dominant due to the large number of "deformed" babies from the year before. Boy were we wrong... again. Fortunately enough only one of her babies came out deformed, but he is doing extremely well: eating, pooping, he grew to full size before his clutchmate, and to make it worse (for us anyway) he is the most beautiful vibrant color orange gecko I have ever personally witnessed! Maybe I'll post pictures of him: he has a humpback and a curly tail, a great personality and incredible color. But, unfortunately he is deformed and can never be bred.

All of the hatchlings with deformed brothers/sisters and the breeders that we had that carried the gene have all been sold as pets. Even the normal, beautiful looking geckos have been because I fear that they may carry the gene. As for the little one I just mentioned, a woman who kind of "collects" leopards, never to breed, took him as a freebie.

Anyway, my whole point is, breeding for curly/kinked tails, even though they 'look kinda cool' is a bad idea. Just from stupid decisions that we made due to ignorance of the subject, we know that breeding them for the cool tail also leads to other deformities in which you will have to end up putting geckos down due to inability to survive. And for anyone whos never had to do it, it is the worst feeling in the world knowing that you have just taken something's life.

We voted "Yes, only if they cannot survive on their own". I just hope that if anyone is considering breeding for deformities, that they reconsider. They are called deformities for a reason!! Please, please please please reconsider. It is not a rewarding experience.

Also, please don't let this turn into a bashing. Either for us, or the other girl, we didn't know any better when we bred Hades for the first time, and she doesn't know the other problems of curly/kinked tails; but she will now! We were stupid, I'll admit, we didn't do our homework like we should have. BUT we have now and are trying to help the rest of the community by telling our story. Thanks for reading, I know it's long!!

 

[Kimjorg]

I agree with Christine...Seeing the disabling illnesses that these defects can cause are heartbreaking...I have spent relentless hours with Christine trying to save the babies that were hatched from Hades...I NEVER NEVER NEVER want to see some of the heart wrenching defects some of these babies had. (like my NUBBY ...chris) Trust me if educated breeders thought that tail kinks or curly tails had traits for a new promising morph...It would have already been created and released. Like Chrissy said they are defects for a reason and these animals that are sold "as pets only" should truly be treated as pets and not as breeders. It is a messy situation breeding these pets and I hope no one "tries" to do it just because they think it is cute after reading this. I also voted Only if the animal wouldn't be able to live on its own.

 

[Alusdra]

Ah- I couldn't find anything when I was researching to suggest that tail-kinks were related to intestinal problems. But- that is something you can only find out by breeding them. Certain kinds of albinism (like in guinea pigs) are related to all sorts of health problems, including digestional, and there are three lines of albinism in geckos. So I just was thinking how odd it was that you guys would breed for the most crazy things, but would find tail-kinks bad. Now it makes sense. In other species it is just a neat superficial mutation.

 

[gko reptiles]

You can't ever know for sure until you've decoded the leopard DNA if it had anything to do with the kinked tail or not. BUT I have decided from the experiences that I've had with them that it probably had something to do with it. I just hope that no one was upset with what I posted... Just a little educational guess that I've taken as a token of knowlegde I thought I'd passon to everyone!

 

[dprince]

Hey Christine and Phillip,

I'm certainly GLAD you posted. It *really* helps people - both new breeders and long timers - learn from other's experiences. I don't know where I would be without the shared knowledge from many different kind and helpful folks (MANY who are on this forum) who were brave enough to post both their good AND bad experiences.

I am so sorry for your very horrible experience, but THANK YOU very much for sharing.

 

[gko reptiles]

Thanks Debbie, anytime.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Ditto! We forget that a lot of people don't know about problems that ran through certain lines so bringing it back up periodically is the only way to make sure that new breeders understand how important out crossing is.

 

[Akkia]

I say know but then again im not sure, we have kept people alive even though thier brain dead so why shouldn't we do everything to help animals? Even if thier blind I don't think id kill them it just hand feed them,I couldn't kill them really.

 

[TWC]

a lot of people buy the geckos for their fashion or looks as to say. one with deformities would never get bought or might be neglected more than a more expensive or better looking one. you tend to take better care of something if you paid more for it. that is a very tough and good post, but you have to think how would the life be of the gecko, better or worse, if it wasnt culled?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I posted this poll awhile back, and have since hatched a beautiful red-orange Hybino/Sunglow that has an underdeveloped front leg (arm). He had a very hard time getting started, and I admit that I slurry-fed him for the first 10 days of his life. He finally began eating on his own, and has developed into a beautiful, healthy, sweet, gentle gecko.

I can't imagine having putting him down just because he had a small arm.

 

[TWC]

that is good to hear. this topic also reminds me of a problem humans go through a lot.

 

[lytlesnake]

It was my first year breeding and I hatched out a small number of leos, 21. All hatched perfectly healthy except for the very last one of the season. I think it was from fluctuating temperature though, not genetic. There was an extreme heat wave, so the room was fluctuating between hot and cold when I ran the AC, and I guess the hovabator changed temps a bit too much. This one egg took forever to hatch too, and when it did, the gecko had a club tail that is not straight.

It's a beautiful banded tremper het raptor with lavender pastel colors. I put this club tailed gecko in a hatchling tub and observed it. I noticed that it was walking in circles a lot, so I figured I may have to have it euthanized. I saw that sometimes it could also walk straight though, so I decided to see how it did in the first week. I didn't give it a styrofoam hide like I do with my other hatchlings, because I figured the gecko would keep bumping into it.

So after about 5 days I put a mealworm top in there with some small mealies on it. The gecko ate! It's been eating well and growing since. I've had it out to climb on me, and it does very well. When it's climbing on my shirt it walks just fine. So it looks like I'll just keep this one as a pet and never breed her. It's not like I have a shortage of leos to breed.

If the gecko has no eyelids, a severe deformity or internal problems it should probably be culled though. And I understand that most big breeders simply do not have the time to deal with a bunch of "special needs" geckos.

I also believe that the slight tail tip kink you see with some enigmas comes along with the calico gene. It's a different type of kink than you see with other bloodlines, and it seems to be fairly common from what I've observed so far. Plenty of enigmas have been raised to adulthood and successfully bred, however, so they have no genetically related health or internal problems whatsoever.