struggling...

[SteveB]

Obviously you know how I feel these days. All I can say is never sacrifice whatever inspired you in the first place, never sacrifice what brings you joy, for anyone or anything.

 

[MSMD]

First of all, Marcia, *huge hugs*. I'm very sorry for the loss of one of your 'gecko kids'.

Marcia, I think that the very fact that you are raising these questions shows the sensitivity and compassion that you have for these wonderful little creatures.

I know how it is to have chronic pain, and how it can really drag you down. I know, for me, that the leos bring me more purpose than anything else when I am feeling down and really crappy about myself. I haven't had to deal with the loss of one of my breeders yet, but was crushed when I lost a hatchling.

I think the fact that you are so sensitive and love each and every one of your geckos is part of what makes you such a great breeder and an asset to this community. I'm truly sorry that you are having a rough time right now and wish there were some 'magical' words that I could give you to make everything 'all better'. The truth is that there are not, but I know that everyone here loves you and will support whatever decision you make.

You made me think long and hard about why I NEED to be a breeder. Honestly, nothing has given me the feeling that I get when I peek in the incubator and see little baby gecko eyes looking at me. It's really a great feeling to see that little life that you helped bring into this world; screaming and all.

 

[StinaKSU]

"WHY do we feel like we have to be BREEDERS"???

For the love of the animals and sharing them with others knowing that you are providing quality animals with quality support and information...at least those are my reasons...and I think the only reasons anyone should breed anything.

I just wonder how the rest of the breeders out there deal with losing one of their geckos.

I don't know about others....but its always hard... It should always be hard...if its not hard, then you don't care about the animals like you should.

Do any of you ever look at your racks full of geckos and think, "Am I doing them justice"?

Absolutely. We should always be looking to improve our animals lives; they are our charges and they deserve the best we can give them.

 

[acpart]

Marcia, I want to try to give you my personal answers to your excellent questions. I am a small breeder and will stay that way for reasons of my own lifestyle. I'm very tempted, often, to increase my collection because of the thrill of the "chase" of acquiring a new gecko and that kind of high feeling of actually getting it. I know that for me it can be a kind of addiction and that I could end up with a huge number of animals and still have that same craving. I'm not saying that everyone goes through this, but I know myself. I do best having a number of geckos where I have time to hold every one of them each evening. I also keep them in glass vivs where I can see them. This,again, is my personal preference as opposed to racks (although I do have a 16 bin rack for hatchling overflow). Even so, I have similar thoughts to you when I see them sitting in their vivs: "Aren't they bored? Should I be stimulating them somehow?" I tell myself that I'm assigning human feelings to animals that are very different from human.

That said, I think that whatever decisions we make for ourselves about crucial things in our lives --child-rearing, pets, work, spouses-- there's always the worry that the road not taken would have been better and that we are somehow not doing enough, or doing too much. That contradiction alone should be a clue that some of us are designed to never feel that we have performed optimally. For me, the trick is discriminating between the "why didn't I do it this way" regret (about which I will never be satisfied if I give in to it) and the possibility that my inner self is trying to communicate that I need to make a change in my life. I usually eventually get it right, but not immediately.

You also asked about breeding and grieving:
breeding: for me, breeding is one way to cope with the desire to own more and more geckos. I get to own a whole lot (well, a whole lot for me) every year for a short time. I get excited at this time in the season about filling my cages up and I have to say that I get just as excited in the fall about emptying my cages.
Another aspect of breeding for me is that it's like sculpture and creating art. I take my gene pool and see what new and lovely "pieces" I can create. They are pieces of art not only because of how they look, but also the combination of their unique personalities. Since I am a small breeder, I have to get the most out of a small number of morphs, so I also get to see how many interesting combinations I can get out of relatively few varieties. This makes it even more fascinating and challenging. I see the limitations of what I can create since I can't afford the more expensive morphs and can't have the large gene pool that would allow me to be an "elite breeder", but I also know I have a niche where I don't have to ship out of town because I can charge affordable prices to moderately discriminating customers. This is what works for me. I imagine there is another type of satisfaction and fulfillment that big breeders get from what they do and I think that's great. I imagine that if, on great reflection a big breeder decides that they feel much as I do, they become small breeders.

Grief: I can understand your feelings, but I'm just wired differently. I feel sad when a gecko dies, but my emotional makeup is just more pragmatic. This is not something that I have planned or designed for myself, it's just the way I am, as you are the way you are. The advantage for me is that I'm not wracked with grief, but the down side is that I'm probably not the most nurturing person in the world.

I hope this is somewhat informative and helpful. They are important questions, and hard as it is to re-evaluate our personal choices, the hope is that the reflection leads to change when it needs to happen.

I hope this becomes a fruitful time for you and that the physical and medical problems, which undoubtedly cloud the issue, can be brought under control.

Aliza

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I tell myself that I'm assigning human feelings to animals that are very different from human.

This is probably the most significant statement about my 'struggle'.... thanks for articulating it so well! I do tend to 'humanize' all of my animals. I project my own feelings onto them.

Case in point (off topic, somewhat)... I have two black Min. Schnauzers. My male, Jet, is a US Champion. My female, Star, comes from champion lines. Two years ago, they had a litter of 5 gorgeous and healthy pups. After the 6-hour process of birthing the pups, we went in the house to grab a bite to eat, and left Star to tend to her pups.

After about 15 minutes, I went back to the garage to check on everyone. Star was missing, as so were all but one puppy. I thought she had moved them, but I hear a very loud 'crunch' and slurping sound. When I looked over, I saw Star with entrails hanging out her mouth, a puppy head rolling across the floor, and blood everywhere. Star had eaten all but one of her puppies!

I cannot describe the trauma I experienced witnessing this horror. I took the only surviving baby, and raised it by hand for 7 weeks. I couldn't even look at my dog, Star. I felt nothing but disgust and hatred for her for a few months.

It wasn't until I realized that I was imposing human values on my dog, that I was able to love her once again. She is just a dog. She did what she did for some unknown reason, and it wasn't my place to judge her reason.

I guess my point is, why did I want to breed my dogs? Why did I look forward to having a litter of pups? Why was I devastated beyond words when my dog did something that a dog would do? Why do I feel the need to breed my geckos, and raise their babies? Why can't I just be happy to keep them as beloved pets, and just enjoy them?

 

[eyelids]

Whatever decision you make it will be the right one... Believe me I know depression all to well and can definitely feel for ya... Trying to be positive and having a strong conscience of your being will help a lot...

You're contributions to the leopard gecko community will be praised and appreciated for many many years... You will always be the First Lady of Geckos whether you're breeding/selling them, making guest appearances at shows or just a mean old mod at GeckoForums.net!

Smile!

 

[Ccrashca069]

We have 5 leopard geckos that are just pets. Granted 2 of them are paired together and have breed for the first time in 5 years this year. I have 6 eggs from them. That is Bonnie and Clyde. Then Julie gave me a really cool sweet female leopard gecko. I also am not breeding 2 well maybe all 4 of my hatchings I have right now. That is just because their moms passed away so I still have their genes in my hatchlings.
All the other leopard geckos I love and enjoy holding them and caring for them. Granted I am using them for breeders but it is because I want to not that I feel I need too breed them. I know in a year or 2 I am going to sell some of my adults I have now to make room to have more projects. But I might not since I am getting my Reptile Room now. But I enjoy being a very small breeder / leopard gecko addict. Anyone I know that thinks of having a lizard as a pet I tell them to get a leopard gecko because they are awesome first lizards. And if I can sell them one that is a plus.

 

[skyline]

I only have 3 leopard gecko's there strictly pets but i have bred my female once this year just so I could have a few more leos. If you have an even balance between breeding them and holding and loving them I think its fine to breed them. Also I think It's fine to sell your babies to share the fun of having reptiles with other people.

 

[bcreptiles]

hi marcia, i hope you are feeling better now.
this is becoming a heavy topic, lots of questions, each and every one would be worth a single topic:main_yes:
questions as: why do we breed?
should you keep them in tubs?
should you try to rescue every leo?
do you care if an animal dies?
and even should you keep them in an natural viv (also meaning on sand)?
the problem is... MOST people will NOT tell the truth.

because people will start tinking bad of them.
everyone knows, that you LOVE youre animals, and it shows, because you breed beautiful healthy animals, and lots of other people do.
but people on this forum are only the tip of the leo iceberg, there are so many things, we do not see.
from the reactions, you know, that you are not alone in this, and i hope you will keep breeding leos (i think you will:main_yes: )

 

[fallen_angel]

If you have an even balance between breeding them and holding and loving them I think its fine to breed them. Also I think It's fine to sell your babies to share the fun of having reptiles with other people.

I completely agree. There is a difference between just breeding purely for money, and breeding because you actually love and care about every little one that's produced, and how much of a wonderful experience it all is.

I am still pretty new to the forums and do not know you very well Marcia, but from the reactions from everyone on this forum, I know you are a very caring and loving breeder and person. Only you know the right answer, and I'm sure everyone's support has been helping you through this tough time. Best wishes to you Marcia.

 

[Sandra]

I think you should do as Kaleb suggests and take a sabbatical-ish year. It seems to me that you need to organize your ideas, rest from all the stress and enjoy your geckos.

I've always admired how you are able to keep the business running and, at the same time, treat your animals not like breeding stock or inventory items, but as the living beings they are. C'mon, when I grow up I want to be like you!

They can be both breeders and pets at the same time, I don't think you are being hypocrital. Is just that it's difficult to combine both roles. About the "Why do we feel we have to be breeders" question... I guess that during many years (I don't include myself because I'm quite a newbie) the hobbyists have been entrusted the task of breeding everything that fell in their hands in order to create a stable population of captive bred reptiles. Of course, that's no longer necessary with leopard geckos but the tendency still prevails (how many people buy reptiles in pairs and trios?).

In my case... Well, I have several reasons. The first and the more important to me is that I want to experience it. Everybody talks about how amazing the feeling is when you see a newborn hatchling in your incubator, and I want to feel it myself. The second is that I want to see what comes out from my different geckos. And the third, well, that my hobbyist friends brainwashed me about how Spain needs more people like me to become breeders because we are way below the European level. But after arguing with them I thought about it and I shouldn't have let them influence my opinion, because if I make the decision to breed, I should do it because of me and nobody else! Probably after a few tries I will stop breeding, unless I get hooked to the feeling

About "humanizing the animals"... In my opinion, that can be as dangerous as seeing them as items. Each species must be treated differently according to their needs. Us, and many other species, need stimulation, company, and even freedom to have some quality of life. If not, we show a variety of symtoms. I think reptiles would too if they were unsatisfied. In fact, when they are ill, they are lethargic, anorexic, etc. I mean, they are able to show those symptoms when they are feeling unwell, that should apply to mental health too.

In my opinion, it's normal to cry for your pets. I feel far more sensitive when regarding to them than to people. I think it's because I believe they totally depend on me and everything that happens to them is my fault, while people are independent. Luckily, I haven't lost any gecko yet, but I remember the day when the vet had to amputate the tail of one of my geckos. That night she was completely lethargic: wouldn't move, wouldn't complain when I picked her up, wouldn't do anything... She was so weak... I thought she had given up. That night I cried non-stop to the thought that she was going to die.

I also received a shipment from the USA, and there was a document that didn't have the stamp they wanted in the Spanish airport. They wouldn't let us pick them up until we had the paper properly filled, things got complicated and in the end they had to spend that week in the airport. Probably the worst week in my life. I didn't know those geckos yet but I felt responsible for them and if anything happened to them it was going to be my fault. I looked at the pics I had from them again and again and thought they were all so beautiful... I was desperate. Just so you know there's other people that cry for their geckos. If you owned geckos yet didn't feel anything for them... something would be very wrong with you.

Best wishes Marcia, cheer up.

 

[DanTheFireman]

Hey Marcia, we hope you're able to sort it all out and hold the MOGL torch high. Many, if not all of us go through these tribulations. Some of the feelings you're having caused me to get out of snakes years back. I just couldn't deal with using those cute little furry creatures as food items, even though it's as nature has it. Thank God I have yet to feel compassion for crickets, mealies and supers.
We're all pulling for you, give a shout if we can help in any way.

 

[godzillizard]

Marcia, I also cry everytime I lose one of my kiddos, and then I sing until I feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude We don't have to know you personally, to love you, you give so wholly of yourself, and that's something that's harder and harder to find these days. You are a one in a million sweetheart

 

[LadyGecko]

Marcia-for what it's worth-with the barometer dancing around across the country-pain levels are way up for many people right now

Depression and self examination seem to go hand in hand with increased pain and self doubt about everything that one is able to do (or not able to do) with ones life

You have long been regarded by myself (and by many other people) as a caring person with a genuine love for these creatures that we all keep and a willingness to go the extra steps to help many people with countless questions about caring for them

I agree with assigning human qualities to pets is extremely common and when we have a close bond with them-it just seems natural to do
This habit/practice can give us both joy and pain and leave us very confused when an animal does something that is "in it's nature" and we can not fathom a reason why

Please take care of yourself and do whatever makes both you and the animals that you care for "happy" and healthy
If you need to cut back on breeding this year-do so and just hold your babies and let them give you the joy that we experience from keeping and caring for these little critters

I wish you the best with everything and for an inner peace with your struggles

Sandy

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Thanks, everyone... for the support! I am so blessed to have such a wonderful community of friends here, from around the world, on GeckoForums.net! I truly love all of you. You all are my social life, and I would be very empty and lonely without you.

I cut back my breeding projects by about 30% for this year. That's a pretty significant reduction. I have several 'breeders' that have been removed from my breeding program, and can only bring myself to sell only a handful. I can't bear to think of seling them... never to see their faces again.

I am such a WUSS!!!

 

[Stitchex]

I think what you did was great. You've had GGG opened for about 12 years, and when I grow up, I want to be a breeder like YOU! I want to care about my animals with the compassion you have, and we all are rooting for whatever path you'll end up choosing.

 

[bleeding_sarcasm]

Marcia,
I hate to see you in this situation, but your feelings hit all too close to home. I identify with the guilt and ethics of keeping and breeding animals, and I have a hard time sometimes living up to my own high standards.

I, however, have the luxury of having a day job that can cover my bills. Reptile keeping & breeding is a hobby for me. A hobby and a money pit I imagine that depending on that income, to even just make ends meet, is incredibly stressful.

I breed because it is a way for me to occasionally bring in some $$ that I can re-invest into my hobby, furthering my enjoyment. [like the $600 custom glass cage order I completed this last weekend. Eek] It’s a nice bonus to have every once in a while, but not anything I need, and so I think that allows me to enjoy it, and not feel like I am weighted down with animal-related chores every day.

Its refreshing to hear from individuals such as yourself, who prize your breeders, your PETS, as more then just inventory that you breed as quickly as possible, just to turn around and make a “profit” off of your “investment”. ESPECIALLY in a market such as leopard geckos that devalue SO QUICKLY. I understand that it is hard to maintain, but you are an exemplary individual that I know many aspire to be similar.

I feel that making money in this business without loosing the compassion, and “milling” them out, is next to impossible. So I keep what I like, in an amount that I find to be manageable.

I do care about my animals, my breeders, my pets, and their offspring a great deal. I don’t coddle them quite like you, because I am just of the mentality that reptiles don’t want to be coddled, but again, I cant make that judgment, since no reptile ever told me one way or the other

I cant say that prefer naturalistic cages over tubs, but I know that tubs limit my enjoyment of them. Assuming that one thing over the other makes them “happy” or “sad” or “angry” is just athropomorphism and speculation. We assign them human emotions as a way to relate to them, but until they grow lips and tell us for themselves, we will never know for sure.


I feel that once you keep animals in captivity, you are 100% responsible for them, and the basic right of every living being, is a good quality of life. Even feeders deserve a good quality of life and a humane death.

I keep reptiles for the same reason that one would keep fish, to have something pretty to look at. And I find naturalistic cages to be a lot “prettier” then paper towels in a tub. I kept nothing but naturalistic cages until our recent ant issues. I personally feel that naturalistic cages helps me provide a good quality of life more so then keeping them in tubs, and so it helps me justify to myself keeping them at all. If you can’t provide your animals with something far better then what they would experience in the “wild” then you have no business keeping them.

Last year I sold 2/3 of the animals that I have been raising up and collecting for a variety of breeding projects, and gave away a lot of my proven “pets” to good homes. I didn’t think I was going to breed ciliatus this year, but April came around, and I got excited about the prospect of producing pretty babies, and caved.

From a breeding stance, I kept the "best of the best" with the expectation to produce fewer, "high end" animals, then, many mediocre animals.

Seeing animals neglected/abused/tossed aside/suffer is one of the major self-imposed conflicts that I face. The more animals that there are, the less valuable the species becomes, and the increased likely hood that they will not be provided with the best quality of life by some unscrupulous individuals. Not only am I wary of contributing to any current or future over population problems, but I don’t have very much faith in humanity, and Joe Blow’s ability, or even willingness, to take care of my babies up to my standards.

I am of the mind set that someone who is willing to spend more on an animal, are less likely to treat it like crap. Someone who spends $400 on an animal, is less likely to say "well it would cost more to take the animal to a vet, then to just let this one die and replace it"

I don’t have the cheapest prices, and I don’t try to compete with cheap prices. The people looking for the cheapest price, aren’t the people I want to attract, because they see $$ over quality, which is not always what is best for the animals.

Sadly, the reality is that you loose all control once a sale is made. You try to send them off with as much information, as well as an open door for whenever questions come up, but that doesnt make people take you up on it.

I hope this wasn’t too much of a tangent. I hate to see you like this, and I relate all too much, on many different levels. I think cutting back on the animals that you pair up is a good idea, as a way to keep things at a more manageable level. You will always have the love and support of the community, regardless of whether or not you continue to breed geckos. You are still an invaluable resource, and make priceless contributions.

 

[Franks_Geckos]

Great Post Tamara!

 

[lytlesnake]

Hi Marcia, I seem to remember from another thread that you have 300 geckos, maybe more? That's a lot of geckos. You must be filling water bowls, feeding and cleaning tubs constantly. I've got around 45 and I can barely handle the work. If you are in physical pain, I think it's just way too much work. Even cutting down on your breeding by 30% this year, I think it's still too much work.

For me, if I can't adequately care for my geckos, it seems like maybe some of them would be better off with someone else. This makes it easier to part with them I guess. The temptation to acquire and breed a bunch of different gecko morphs can find one quickly overwhelmed with work and responsibility. This is why I'm only breeding a few females this year.

I can relate to what Dan is saying about the snakes and feeder mice too. I'm in a situation right now where I have bred way too many feeder mice. They're taking over. As much as I hate to euthanize them, it's got to be done. I'm spending so much time taking care of feeder mice that I barely have time to care for my reptiles. It's not fun killing mice, but at this point it's me or them. I'm gonna feel a lot better when they're gone. I know this has happened to other people as well. A hobby becomes a job, and then you don't have time to enjoy the hobby anymore.

Whatever you do, you've got to put your own health first. If you're not healthy, then you won't be able to care for any of the geckos. Do you have an assistant? Maybe you should hire one, or if you already have one, maybe consider a second assistant. I know sometimes we can get in a frame of mind where we're the only ones who can take proper care of our geckos, and we become control freaks. But seriously, it sounds like you need someone to take over some of your work load so you can step back a bit and relax.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Do you have an assistant? Maybe you should hire one, or if you already have one, maybe consider a second assistant.

Yes, I do have an assistant... Jacy Colen. Right now, I am not overwhelmed with 300 geckos like I was last summer/fall. I am now down to 56 leopard gecko breeders, 4 banded gecko breeders, 9 Yucatan gecko breeders, 6 smooth knobtail breeders, 8 U. milii breeders, and 4 juvenile rough knobtails. With these numbers, I can manage very well. Jacy will help me this summer when I start having lots of babies to care for.

I think my biggest issue is that I have too much emotional attachment to my animals, and wonder if they are happy. They are all thriving and beautiful, and cared for as if they were pets. My heart melts every time I see new little faces in the incubators, and I love watching them grow and develop. I used to be terrible about selling my geckos... I worried about how they would be cared for. I have gone past that now, thank God!

Tamara... what you wrote in your post is so very true.

I'm glad you are sharing your feelings and opinions, everyone! I think it's good for everyone to understand that breeding animals comes with a huge level of responsibility and commitment. There are times I over-intellectualize about that responsibility.