Super Snow WHAT?!

[ElapidSVT]

i don't see any problem with confirming the genetics by test breeding. geckos aren't endangered and it's no problem to cull them if they turn out to be double hets. test breeding is exactly the proper method to use when receiving animals from sources that don't know the genotype of the animals they are selling. imo, it's a lot better to purchase directly from the breeder, but it's sometimes not possible to find the exact animal that fits in with your breeding program at the price point you desire without expanding your search to resellers that are clueless as to the genetic background.

the only bad part is wasting one season on culls.

i find it awesome that you did the work to be certain that what you're selling is what you intend to sell and not something with unknown genetics.

 

[sunshinegeckos]

thanks for explaining

 

[stager]

In my opinion, the best decision would have been not to breed her at all. If you are not sure of the animal and have suspicions....don't breed it, there's plenty of other geckos out there to use. Again, my opinion.

Agreed, I believe such resultsa should be kulled myself. But why not spend a extra few dollars and go with a trusted breeder so you are not in the position where you have to test breed and kill off the offspring. I don't breed but if I was going to breed I'd avoid pet store geckos completely.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Agreed, I believe such resultsa should be kulled myself. But why not spend a extra few dollars and go with a trusted breeder so you are not in the position where you have to test breed and kill off the offspring. I don't breed but if I was going to breed I'd avoid pet store geckos completely.

Amen.

I can't understand why you would intentionally breed animals that were "iffy" and have "no problem" at all with simply culling them. To have no regard for life because you screwed up by bringing them into this world and just kill them because there's "plenty of geckos"??? I don't get it.

 

[Destiny]

My posts were not originally meant to be an argument on whether or not test breedings are acceptable. I believe test breedings are a necessary part of the hobby, as is culling, and if you can't handle that then maybe it's good you don't breed or you shouldn't be breeding animals, whatever your case may be. If you do have a problem with test breeding, maybe you should take a step back and look at you non-normal gecko(s) and the test breeding you supported when aquiring your animal.
It's not really for one person or another to say whether or not a certain test breeding is acceptable. My primary morphs include Super Snow Bells, Super Snow Bell Enigma, and I am currently working towards Super Snow Bell Blazing Blizzards. Super Snow Bells are not entirely easy to come by and when I came across this "Super Snow Bell" female, I was not going to pass her up nor was I thinking "hmm, I wonder if Wild West Geckos would approve of me buying this gecko". I think my intentions of trying to aquire a Super Snow Bell by the means I took was a valid one, and choosing to test breed her was also a valid decision.
As far as calling me irresponsible for buying at a pet store- The reason I called it a pet store is because I didn't think I would be defending myself, as that was not the original intention of my post, and because the place of business I aquired my geckos from is a reputable dealer that goes to shows around the country and aquires stock for his store that sells exotic pets. I'm not sure if he got his facts mixed up, or what happened exactly, but I was told the gecko was one form of albino and it was another. Regardless, it is a very nice gecko.
Finally, as it seems you were trying to make me look like an idiot, I am now going to put that back to you:
cull   /kʌl/ Show Spelled[kuhl] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1. to choose; select; pick.
2. to gather the choice things or parts from.
3. to collect; gather; pluck.

One could kill to cull from their projects, but it does not neccessarily mean "to kill". The two are not synonymous. Not that it is any of your business how anyone culls their animals from their own projects. FYI, when you are buying from a breeder, you are buying one of their culls.
Seems that there is a lot that "you don't get".

 

[Wild West Reptile]

ROFL!!!!!

 

[Thorgecko707]

I agree with OP on this. If I bought a gecko for my raptor project and it turned out to be a radar then I'd cull them too. And then the process of not knowing if it was radar or typhoon would drive me crazy. And the fact that it is female puts more strain on OP because it could take three years to find out the strain.
I'd top her off with some Tremper asap. Curious though that it doesn't look Mack. It looks very SS at first, second, and third glance.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I'm not interested in arguing either. I was only giving my opinion (which I'm entitled to) on culling perfectly healthy animals. I have culled geckos that were unfit for life and unable to thrive so I'm not against it. I'm pretty sure that when we are using the word "cull" or "culling", we are talking about killing the animal. Your reference to buying a "culled" animal makes no sense. I think your confusing my post with what "Stager" said, as I didn't say a word about your pet store geckos, so get your facts straight before blabbing your mouth. I didn't realize I was dealing with a breeding master, know it all. I've only been keeping reptiles for 30 years, so I'm probably not qualified to comment. Good luck with your pet store gecko breeding project, I meant no ill will towards you, only stating that with all the available proven geckos out there, that I would go that route instead of wasting lifes for no reason.

 

[Destiny]

I'm not interested in arguing either. I was only giving my opinion (which I'm entitled to) on culling perfectly healthy animals. I have culled geckos that were unfit for life and unable to thrive so I'm not against it. I'm pretty sure that when we are using the word "cull" or "culling", we are talking about killing the animal. Your reference to buying a "culled" animal makes no sense. I think your confusing my post with what "Stager" said, as I didn't say a word about your pet store geckos, so get your facts straight before blabbing your mouth. I didn't realize I was dealing with a breeding master, know it all. I've only been keeping reptiles for 30 years, so I'm probably not qualified to comment. Good luck with your pet store gecko breeding project, I meant no ill will towards you, only stating that with all the available proven geckos out there, that I would go that route instead of wasting lifes for no reason.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am also entitled to point out your ignorance. Once again, culling does not mean killing. I'm sorry that you are pretty sure culling means killing. That is unfortunate for the geckos you decide not to keep. That would make sense though why you don't think geckos you buy are culls. Could you imagine receiving a de-thawed gecko from fed ex?
In my last post I didn't directly address you when referring to the pet store thing, so I have no idea why you are getting your panties in a bunch over what I had to say about my "pet store gecko". It is you who needs to get his facts straight as I am not sure you even read half my post before responding.
Thanks for the luck. I'm going to need it with the likes of you. I don't mean to piss you off, but that's just my opinion LOL! When I read your posts, I like to imagine a drunk guy writing the first thing that comes to mind just trying to start crap. It's pretty entertaining and it makes it hard to stay mad at you.:main_laugh:

 

[Destiny]

Thanks Morgan! Yeah she really does look like a Super Snow. I was surprised to find only one snow hatchie

 

[ballingerjonathan]

I agree with destiny man u really should read the whole thread first and by the way she does know what she's doing because I would know I am getting 2 of my geckos from her and her husband and they are very beautiful and healthy so please quit being an instigator if u want to do that go on Facebook its full of it

 

[NinjaDuo]

Wild is totally in the right

 

[Thorgecko707]

Time to get out the plastic embedding kit and make some paperweights.

 

[ballingerjonathan]

Time to get out the plastic embedding kit and make some paperweights.

What lol I'm confused

 

[Wild West Reptile]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am also entitled to point out your ignorance. Once again, culling does not mean killing. I'm sorry that you are pretty sure culling means killing.


When I read your posts, I like to imagine a drunk guy writing the first thing that comes to mind just trying to start crap.

Directly from Dictionary: to reduce or control the size of (as a herd) by removal (as by hunting) of especially weaker animals; also : to hunt or KILL (animals)
Directly from Wikipedia: Culling is the process of removing animals from a group based on specific criteria. This is done in order either to reinforce certain desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable characteristics from the group. For livestock and wildlife, the process of culling usually implies the KILLING of animals with undesirable characteristics.

First off, I said nothing to deserve your accusations. I simply gave my opinion on killing perfectly healthy animals. That was it! If you don't like it, then too bad! It's MY opinion. I stated that I think killing animals because they can't thrive is acceptable, but killing animals because "there's plenty of them so no biggie", I don't endorse. I'm sorry, but once again, it's MY opinion! It's worth just as much as the next guys. From what I've seen in your previous posts, you have a history of heated arguments. I wonder why that is? If you thought that starting this thread was going to get you pats on the back, or "congratulations for creating a double albino het", well I'm not gonna be the one to do that! I really don't want to have to post crap like this, but you seem to want this.

You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to who I am. But it shows your ignorance very well. I am far from a "drunk guy" posting on GF, but thank you for trying to slander my name. Not that it will work, as nobody cares what you actually think. I am friends or business associates with most all of the top breeders in this country, and I don't really care what you think little girl. Anyone with half a brain would agree with me, that 99% of the time that people refer to culling geckos on this site is means to actually KILL them. I don't know how old you are, but you come off as a young, cocky little brat who thinks she knows everything. You have plenty to learn. I have been keeping and raising reptiles for nearly 30 years. So if I were you, I'd get back to your test breeding with your "beautiful pet shop geckos" before you say something else stupid enough to get yourself banned from this site. Now back to being a "drunk guy". Unreal.......:main_no:

 

[lillith]

We've had the "please define culling" conversation a few times on the forum here.
It's one of those nightmares of semantics. Strictly speaking, from a 4-H point of view, to cull is to kill. However, the removal from the breeding pool is also a form of culling. Hence the reference to purchased geckos being a form of culling, they are being removed from their originating breeder's gene pool going forward. It's kind of a sloppy use of the word, but technically accurate.

It is distasteful to do test breedings. I have seen instances where it is necessary, and I think the OP's may have been one. The dam in question did look odd...undefinable. It's a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation. Because if you do a test breeding, and it's not confirming what you want it to, is it ethical to release those "mutts" into the public, where they end up on Craigslist, and in the hands of newbie breeders? Or do you have the money to surgically alter, at the risk of their lives, each and every single gecko produced? What do you DO with them?

Yes, it would be better that they weren't created. But they were. It has to be dealt with. Done is done. I find the destruction of life for its own sake something to be avoided at all costs, but it doesn't include all of the ethical aspects in this situation.

I am glad that the dam was at least positively identified and with someone who can make use of what she has to offer. I am sorry the person who bred her got the negative result they had hoped to avoid. It's not a good situation any way you slice it.

But can we all be nicer to each other about our disagreements?
Yes, I get crabby, too. I'm human as well.

G'nite GeckoForums. I'm sleepy.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I'd like to apologize to everyone who wasted their time reading the last few posts. It's not what I intended, but I don't think that what was said about me was warranted. I will not be commenting again on this thread. So go ahead and get your shots in....there will be no return of fire. Good night all. Happy Labor Day to all. Even you Destiny...LOL!!

 

[Palor]

I am pretty amazed anyone would cite the ever modifiable wiki as a source.

 

[SamsonizeMe]

Okay, I'll bite. This has gotten out of hand and someone needs to pick this mess apart completely.

Amen.

I can't understand why you would intentionally breed animals that were "iffy" and have "no problem" at all with simply culling them. To have no regard for life because you screwed up by bringing them into this world and just kill them because there's "plenty of geckos"??? I don't get it.

This is where you fired first. You picked words out of Stager's and ElapidSVT's posts and put them into Destiny's mouth. Nowhere in any of her posts did she use language such as "It's no problem to cull them," or imply that the life of every gecko is not important; easy to brush off as separating chaff from wheat.

The simple fact of the matter is that she test-bred a gecko that she already owned to determine the genotype of this phenotypically ambiguous, morph-mislabeled animal once and for all. This animal was sold to her as a Super Snow Bell, and gave off much of the appearance of that morph. It was ambiguous enough to have many long-time breeders scratching their heads, unsure about the real truth at hand. Moreover, some were convinced she was a Bell, through and through.

The truly irresponsible action in this situation would have been to breed her nonchalantly to a male that was heterozygous for Bell, and then sell the offspring (which would all have a normal appearance) as het Bell. Or re-sell her as a Super Snow Bell. Obviously, neither was the case.

Given the unfortunate results, the permanent removal of the offspring from the gene pool (through whatever method) is the ethically responsible action to take (albeit morally difficult and gray) for the leopard gecko breeding community at large. You went ahead and implied that this was an emotionally and/or morally easy task for her to carry out. The arrival at this conclusion was unfounded on all fronts, and enabled you to fundamentally and unfairly make a judgement about her character and worth as a reptile breeder.

This discourse has since devolved into two things:

1. A pissing match over semantics.
2. Your assertion that your opinion is as valid as any other.

-It's true. Any animal you buy from a breeder's stock is an animal that has been removed from that breeder's gene pool. Such is the failure of language to always properly define and distinguish. It's also true that usually when we toss the word "cull" around in here, it is liable to carry that very negative connotation associated with it.

-At the very heart of the matter, you make an excellent point, in absolute terms. In a perfect situation, why waste new life when proven animals are available? However, this is polluted by sarcasm and name-calling.

I think your confusing my post with what "Stager" said, as I didn't say a word about your pet store geckos, so get your facts straight before blabbing your mouth. I didn't realize I was dealing with a breeding master, know it all. I've only been keeping reptiles for 30 years, so I'm probably not qualified to comment. Good luck with your pet store gecko breeding project(...)

While not called for, I believe her choosing to caricature you as being "some drunk guy" was based solely on your misinterpretation of the situation. Which is something that inebriated people do - misinterpret. This misunderstanding devolves further and you re-neg on your earlier assertion that you were not insulting her or her animals:

(...)If you thought that starting this thread was going to get you pats on the back, or "congratulations for creating a double albino het", well I'm not gonna be the one to do that! I really don't want to have to post crap like this, but you seem to want this.

(...)I don't know how old you are, but you come off as a young, cocky little brat who thinks she knows everything. You have plenty to learn. I have been keeping and raising reptiles for nearly 30 years. So if I were you, I'd get back to your test breeding with your "beautiful pet shop geckos" before you say something else stupid enough to get yourself banned from this site. Now back to being a "drunk guy". Unreal.......:main_no:

Abusive ad-hominem? Classy! [/sarcasm off]. It's plain and clear that she was not looking for any pats on the back. Tit for tat I suppose. You are bringing this billy-club of "30 years of experience" to the table repeatedly, but have you really been making heavy ethical decisions about what is objectively right and wrong in breeding animals since you were nine years old? You maintain that everyone's opinion deserves equal merit but you throw your weight around like you're the only game in town. Which is it? Would it be any different for someone on their first season to have to euthanize a healthy specimen, as it is for someone who has racked up fifty seasons? Or does it hurt just as much every time?

Your responses to each other are natural. When provoked even unintentionally and indirectly (which was originally the case here), the anger we feel leads us to aim low - go for the easy shots. But it doesn't help anything, and it certainly doesn't engender civil discourse, or further the hobby we all enjoy.

So both of you, knock it off. \('~`)/

 

[sunshinegeckos]

this thing has gotten way out of hand. I will leave my personal opinion out of it.

Destiny on this forum when you use the word cull it tends to mean kill. Yes there are different definitions for it but here it means kill. If you have been here long enough you should know that. So if you meant something else maybe different wording would be best so there is no confusion.

Noone needs to come to anyones defense because we are all old enough to stick up for ourselves but the name calling needs to stop. It just devalues everything else that was said in that post.

Hopefully this was a learned lesson about purchasing iffy genetics. I always make sure the breeders I purchase from know without a shadow of a doubt what they are selling me. If they dont, I dont buy. Then I dont have to "test breed" to make sure and run the risk of muddying the gene pool. Its muddy enough.