The fate of reptile breeding

[Golden Gate Geckos]

After reading all the posts here and in some similar threads, I guess what each of us could be doing is to re-evaluate our prospects and reasons for breeding. There may be benefit for some of us in cutting back the number of projects or number of geckos produced for a season in order to have fewer, high quality offspring or to have an easier season.

I agree Aliza. I have cut back my leopard gecko breeding stock to 52 from nearly 200.

my grandpa told me from his 40 year experiance in this, that even though there are a hundred thousand of one species being produced each year, selectively breed your favorite and make exceptional animals, and for anyone to catch up to your quality, they have to buy from you

Your Grandpa is a very wise man!

the market has been flooded with high end morphs mostly because people are looking for money not because they love the animals.... so my opinion is that if you are buying a pet in hopes of getting some $$$ out of it you are getting that animal for the wrong reason.

I do not fault ANYONE for trying to make money at what they do! But, I agree that one of the biggest reasons the market is flooded today is mainly due to greed.

Most of us will never be able to compete with the numbers that some of the bigger breeders are producing but when it comes to quality and refinement thats when the little guys and gals take over!

I agree with this, but another problem I see in today's market is an awful lot of 'little guys'... the ones that have a pair of geckos, make a website, and call themselves breeders. Very few of those people will succeed due to the reasons above... the illusion that breeding geckos will make you rich.

 

[SleepyDee]

but another problem I see in today's market is an awful lot of 'little guys'... the ones that have a pair of geckos, make a website, and call themselves breeders. Very few of those people will succeed due to the reasons above... the illusion that breeding geckos will make you rich.

I'm a 'little guy' ~ I have less then 20 leo's and only breed a few females a year (this year it's a grand total of four), I have a relatively new website (less then a year old though it took longer in the planning, etc) and I'm a hobbyist/breeder........ but ..... what got me into leo's first was being given a rescue/rehomer that had been bought from a petshop ~ one sadly that didn't make the battle against impaction and parasites ~ I don't breed for money and I know for sure I'll never be rich (or even break even lol) but I am passionate about my leo's and their care; and this same applies to a fair few others that I have got to know ..... bottom line is not all of us 'little guys' are in it for the money but because we genuinely care :main_thumbsup:

 

[liljenn]

Everyone has some really good points here.... the market is flooded, considering the economy - especially in some parts of the country (but hardly here in SC! lol). And I agree that the only way to "weather the storm" is what Aliza, Gregg, and Kyle (and others!) have already said.... produce less by selectiing the high-quality, outstanding geckos and produce the few morphs you really love to work with. However that will never be the philosophy of the really BIG breeders, but then again, unfortunately we will always have chain pet stores.... don't get me going on that one!

I too, am a very "little guy". In fact, this will be my first year breeding season after a year and a half of keeping (and learning!). My decision to do so is for the same reasons all of you have and few other reasons ~ but never has been money. I home school my children and we love science and we love reptiles. Keeping Leopard Geckos has become a wonderful family time and breeding a few "special" morphs has become a family passion. It also teaches "life skills" to them and they have developed a passion for geckos. My eldest is 13 yrs old and plans to become a vet, keeping the geckos has shaped her desire to work with exotics with a realization that the world needs more vets that care for and work with them. (she already has colleges "courting" her...sorry, had to brag a bit!)

That kind of education, exposure to these wonderful animals, and diligence of teaching proper care that the hobby/small breeders can give to people in the community is important for the future of the repitile industry as well. Something that doesn't happen from the pet stores. And hopefully this economy will weed out those people who ARE into breeding for greedy purposes.

 

[MeiK]

I agree that one of the biggest reasons the market is flooded today is mainly due to greed.I agree with this, but another problem I see in today's market is an awful lot of 'little guys'... the ones that have a pair of geckos, make a website, and call themselves breeders.

So... You dislike the big guys for trying to make a buck - and mad at the little guys who "call themselves breeders" for trying to make a buck... Simultaneously you are upset (in this and other threads) for there being too many people selling geckos at too low a price... In other words - you are upset that THEY are cutting the market out from under you (and not allowing you to make a buck).

I think that's a bit... Umm... Well... You get the idea. :main_rolleyes:

Doing this for the money is stupid as it's nearly impossible to break even... So I agree with you there... However I think getting upset @ ANYONE ELSE for this is ridiculous. Business is business - people are trying to make money any way they can. :main_thumbsup: It's not up to anyone to call them out on it.

Having said that - I've only been to a handful of reptile shows - but I def don't see demand going down at all. People need a hobby - and in a crappy economy - the cheap hobbies do well! Lucky for us - this is a relatively cheap hobby.

 

[DLS Reptile]

So... You dislike the big guys for trying to make a buck - and mad at the little guys who "call themselves breeders" for trying to make a buck... Simultaneously you are upset (in this and other threads) for there being too many people selling geckos at too low a price... In other words - you are upset that THEY are cutting the market out from under you (and not allowing you to make a buck).

I think that's a bit... Umm... Well... You get the idea. :main_rolleyes:

Doing this for the money is stupid as it's nearly impossible to break even... So I agree with you there... However I think getting upset @ ANYONE ELSE for this is ridiculous. Business is business - people are trying to make money any way they can. :main_thumbsup: It's not up to anyone to call them out on it.

Having said that - I've only been to a handful of reptile shows - but I def don't see demand going down at all. People need a hobby - and in a crappy economy - the cheap hobbies do well! Lucky for us - this is a relatively cheap hobby.

Allow me to put my 2 cents in on this..I do not think that is what Marcia is saying at all. Anyone who has done this hobby for a while (I have been doing this for 10 years as a medium sized breeder producing around 80 geckos a year). My problem with producing low quality geckos is this; A 15 dollar gecko sold at a show is probably going to be treated as a disposable pet. You will get anyone buying them. The person on the other end could appear to be responsible but maybe they are not. That is the chance you take and it is a chance that I don't like and this REALLY bothers me. If you have ever sold a gecko to someone and that someone neglected it ( I saw this first hand with a gecko I sold to a family for there kid). I had to attempt to nurse this gecko back to health but it was to late, I will NEVER forget that. It bothered me for a long time. One thing I cannot stand is animals being neglected. Now you take the serious breeder who produces first rate top notch geckos. Chances are they will be sold at a higher price,much higher. Who buys higher priced geckos? Usually responsible breeders. You will not see your average pet keeper spending $400 plus on a Nova. Again, you do not make much in this hobby. The satisfaction comes from breeding them and seeing first hand something beautiful that you created. And then making enough money to maybe buy another new morph to expand on that beauty. Trust me I made some money but I was by no means banking it. It all went into the hobby and that is what made me happy. Look at some of the other threads here, you will see just how passionate Marcia is about these little reptiles...

 

[Gregg M]

but another problem I see in today's market is an awful lot of 'little guys'... the ones that have a pair of geckos, make a website, and call themselves breeders. Very few of those people will succeed due to the reasons above... the illusion that breeding geckos will make you rich.

Marcia, I could not agree more...
Even with the amount of animals I breed including other species, I am far from rich... LOL... I often find myself in the "red" with certain projects... Money can be made but you need to dump a crap load of money into it... If you look at it in the way of it being a hobby, you will never be disappointed..

 

[eric]

Having said that - I've only been to a handful of reptile shows - but I def don't see demand going down at all. People need a hobby - and in a crappy economy - the cheap hobbies do well! Lucky for us - this is a relatively cheap hobby.

Cheap hobby? Are you medicated! Please reread your post:main_robin:.

 

[Foreverandever]

My problem with producing low quality geckos is this; A 15 dollar gecko sold at a show is probably going to be treated as a disposable pet. You will get anyone buying them. The person on the other end could appear to be responsible but maybe they are not.


. Who buys higher priced geckos? Usually responsible breeders. You will not see your average pet keeper spending $400 plus on a Nova.

I only paid $15 for Presley and in NO way is he a "disposable" pet to me. Just because I chose to save him from a crappy life at a chain store doesnt mean I am not responsible.

I would gladly pay $400 for a gecko and I am an "average" pet keeper. I'm actually going to a big reptile show this summer and I'm going to be dropping a good amount on a new leo.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...I just dont like umbrella statements

 

[DLS Reptile]

I only paid $15 for Presley and in NO way is he a "disposable" pet to me. Just because I chose to save him from a crappy life at a chain store doesnt mean I am not responsible.

I would gladly pay $400 for a gecko and I am an "average" pet keeper. I'm actually going to a big reptile show this summer and I'm going to be dropping a good amount on a new leo.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...I just dont like umbrella statements

I don't think I was implying that at all. I do realize there are responsible pet keepers. I am one at the moment. What I am trying to say is if just one gecko is sold and mistreated that is one to many. Umbrella statement??? You have to look at the bigger picture and read between the lines. I do not post on this forum to argue or to start arguments. Remember my first post? I hate negativity... I deal with it daily..P.s. I applaud you for your love of animals.

 

[liljenn]

I only paid $15 for Presley and in NO way is he a "disposable" pet to me. Just because I chose to save him from a crappy life at a chain store doesnt mean I am not responsible.

I would gladly pay $400 for a gecko and I am an "average" pet keeper. I'm actually going to a big reptile show this summer and I'm going to be dropping a good amount on a new leo.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...I just dont like umbrella statements

I don't think David was making a blanket statement.... he said "probably" and that there is always a "chance" when reptiles are sold for only $15 that they will become "disposable" pets. Someone who spends a lot of money on something usually chooses to take better care of it.... but even that is an "umbrella statement" because you have people with big $$$ who don't take care of things because everything to them is "disposable" :main_rolleyes:

And I do believe Marcia has a right to make her statement above... she has been in this industry for a long time and "seen 'em come & go"..... cutting the market from under her, no, but being in it for the wrong reasons, definately. Just my opinion...

 

[DLS Reptile]

I don't think David was making a blanket statement.... he said "probably" and that there is always a "chance" when reptiles are sold for only $15 that they will become "disposable" pets. Someone who spends a lot of money on something usually chooses to take better care of it.... but even that is an "umbrella statement" because you have people with big $$$ who don't take care of things because everything to them is "disposable" :main_rolleyes:

And I do believe Marcia has a right to make her statement above... she has been in this industry for a long time and "seen 'em come & go"..... cutting the market from under her, no, but being in it for the wrong reasons, definately. Just my opinion...

Thank you...

 

[Foreverandever]

I don't think I was implying that at all. I do realize there are responsible pet keepers. I am one at the moment. What I am trying to say is if just one gecko is sold and mistreated that is one to many. Umbrella statement??? You have to look at the bigger picture and read between the lines. I do not post on this forum to argue or to start arguments. Remember my first post? I hate negativity... I deal with it daily..P.s. I applaud you for your love of animals.

Hmmm...ok youre right. It wasnt an umbrella statement. I agree that one is too many. Sorry, I jumped to conclusions. I wasn't trying to argue. I dont post here to start arguments either (hence why I said I wasnt trying to be argumentative lol). I might be a little touchy since I've had a few people scoff at me for buying my leo at a chain store instead of a breeder. Although I have had leos in the past and they have all come from breeders. Go figure

 

[MeiK]

Cheap hobby? Are you medicated! Please reread your post:main_robin:.

Considering other hobbies - this stuff really isn't expensive. Coming from building custom turbo setups for cars... This gecko stuff is CHEAP! haha

 

[e_cupcake26]

I agree whole heartily, I was considering breeding as a hobby because I've always wanted to hatch an egg! And both of my neices and nephew love science.My nephew loves reptiles same as me. And my sisters are science teachers with labs and incubators so it would be a fun family project, but then I have to consider what I would do with all those babies. People aren't buying much of anything extra these days so I have to consider that as well. But at the same time, if you don't keep these different morphs going they could easily disapear.

 

[Gecko Euphoria]

You said it brother god bless, I just hope I can make enough to pay to feed my animals I'd just die if I had to get rid of them I love them like they are my kids and they were before I had a kid, I just hate to see this happen its so depressing when a Year ago I remember throwing a cool $2000 down on a gecko and now I cant even get 10% of that price for the offspring of that gecko, it just tugs, I hope the economy goes back up for the hobby and everything else I'd sure hate to see this be our undoing as humans and put us on the endagered species list which could happen really easy we have come so far species, that the fall will be terrible if its not fixed could you imagine going back to horse and buggy or worse cave men type living ecpesially after the life styles we have had?? I hope that every thing gets better for everyone. Good luck to all and god bless us all,

Adam

I hate negativity with a passion,but I have to comment on this. Looking through the classifieds is kind of depressing. Breeders are getting out of the hobby(myself included 4 moths ago) $1000.00 leos selling for $100.00. I know it is because the economy is in turmoil but it is never the less real. This hobby is without a doubt one of the coolest,most rewarding and relaxing hobbies there is. People want to help other people by buying their reptiles but when you look at the bigger picture it is all about making sure you have a nest egg. God forbid you lose your job. For all you breeders out there, I hope things get better so we can continue doing what we love and what is our passion... God bless...

 

[whkrazyk]

whenever/if ever i decide to really start producing leos, and not just super selectively breeding, then im goin to have a payment plan on geckos $500 and more, the standerd 20% down, reasonable, not long term payments, and the gecko is shipped after full paymant is made, i believe this would help sales alot, for the reason that some people just dont kno how to save money(im not saying everyone) but if they put a down payment on one of my geckos, and they kno that if they miss a payment that the gecko they had on hold will go back up for sale, and the money they gave me can be spent on another gecko, but not on hold again, then they will make those payments, thats just my opinon, i wont kno if it works until i try it

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

I agree with this, but another problem I see in today's market is an awful lot of 'little guys'... the ones that have a pair of geckos, make a website, and call themselves breeders. Very few of those people will succeed due to the reasons above... the illusion that breeding geckos will make you rich.

For as much support that we all give each other, i almost take offense to this. I'm very new to the hobby by most peoples standards but yet i have a very well paying job as does my girlfriend. Our annual income is near 80k between us. This is by no means a way for me to make money. I enjoy the company and the friendships there are out there.

I would much rather refine what other people do then make a new morph that cost more then a used car. When listening to the latest LNL's and market trends they were talking about the line bred traits as being a real go getter. I totally agree, im working with line bred traits. Not because i want to make fast money or even get a profit. It's because i want to create something that is amazing.

So please when talking about small breeders always remember that even though there are many new people out there. There are still some that have their heads on straight and their priorities in order.

I don't plan on buying super expensive racks and incubators to not be in this for a long long time. I love reptiles and it doesn't matter what people call me or what people refer to me as being. The bottom line is that i do this as a hobby but i'm also not interested in doing it as a half ass hobby.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

So... You dislike the big guys for trying to make a buck - and mad at the little guys who "call themselves breeders" for trying to make a buck... Simultaneously you are upset (in this and other threads) for there being too many people selling geckos at too low a price... In other words - you are upset that THEY are cutting the market out from under you (and not allowing you to make a buck).

I think that's a bit... Umm... Well... You get the idea. :main_rolleyes:

I do not dislike 'big breeders' at all. If you look over all the posts I have made here on GeckoFoums.net, you will see that I have absolutely no problem with anyone making money at what they do. What I DO have a problem with is flooding the public market with geckos at wholesale prices.

I do not have any problems with 'small breeders' either! I started out as a small breeder, and still consider myself just a little more than a hobbyist myself. I have dedicated more than 10 years helping and mentoring new 'small' breeders. What I do have a problem with is someone with a male and female gecko and no experience throwing up a website, then asking how to incubate eggs, and then disappearing the following year because they had unrealistic ideas that breeding geckos can make you rich. This sends a confusing message to the general 'gecko-buying' public.

It's HARD to keep your head above water in this hobby/business. It takes years to establish yourself as a quality breeder with exceptional ethics and customer service. I do take issue with many out there who expect overnight credibility and financial profits.

In no way am I trying to discourage anyone from breeding leopard geckos! I would be shooting myself in the foot if I felt that way... after all, it means sales for me as well as perpetuating the interest in the hobby!

 

[DLS Reptile]

AMEN Marcia!!! We all need to realize that it is us the breeders on this forum and a few others that are going to keep OUR hobby alive. It is like a circle. From the small breeder to the big breeder Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I see a gecko I like I am going to buy it...

 

[SleepyDee]

What I do have a problem with is someone with a male and female gecko and no experience throwing up a website, then asking how to incubate eggs, and then disappearing the following year because they had unrealistic ideas that breeding geckos can make you rich.

*nods* seen the same thing happening in the UK ~ putting the pair together or buying a group and then asking about what to do, how to do, why to do ... sometimes it's like reading and researching first have gone out of the window :main_no: