The Giant Debate???

[whkrazyk]

ive always wondered what were the length and weight of the parents of the first so called giant, if they were both technically larger indivisuals, then it would be a line bred trait right, and the founder calls it a genetic mutation, does that mean that the parents were both 50-60 gram leos, and hatched out a leo that became 100 gram +, i kno theres a tribe in africa that only mates the biggest men to the biggest gurls, creating a tribe of 7 footers being the norm, is that what the founder of the giant did, or was it just an accident, and if you line breed a certain trait, does it make the gene specifically more dominate, like if you bred your biggest geckos together for 5 years, thyen bred those offspring to a norm, would you get like 50% huge, 50% norm, or would you get a size in the middle? or has this not been tested yet?...........thanks guys..........kyle

 

[nevinm]

the founding gecko for the giant genes were in deed "giants". that doesnt nessisarly make them line breed as you said kyle. according to that breeder he got some wild caught animals that were huge compaired to that days standers. in that day the normal gecko for reaching 60g for a male. he breed those animals and got an even bigger animal EI moose. all that stuff is on his web page.

as i said befor if you breed a HUGE (none giant) gecko to a normal size you get a mix ranging from small to big, mostly normal sized babies about 2g, no matter how big the animal is. and that is true, even though the normal for an adult gecko today is about 80g, babies are still hatching out at 2g.

with all that being said there is another breeder (he will remain nameless) who found his own big or giant line. they were in the bells though. his findings match that of the big T man. and he told me him self that you can tell the diff between his big leopards and a normal leopard and it does act as a codom gene.

everyone is forgetting that the giant gene was found back it 98'ish, back then as i said normal leopards were still only 50-60g. his giants and super giants havent changed. but through generations after generations our captive breed leopards have become enormous. that is typical of animals in captivity through generations (not time). how many generations have been born since 00'?

nev

 

[eric]

Sorry, but I am not touching this thread because I don't have enough proof either way.

LMAO!!!! HA HA AH HA HAH HA! :main_laugh:

Another one of the Texas Tyrant's masterpieces. Good luck to all that tackle this one :main_thumbsup:

 

[Nigel4less]

LMAO!!!! HA HA AH HA HAH HA! :main_laugh:

Another one of the Texas Tyrant's masterpieces. Good luck to all that tackle this one :main_thumbsup:

Thanks Eric, everyones going to need it :main_laugh:



...That and about 5 days worth of Cappuccino

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I have been reluctant to give all the reasons that I am 'skeptical' about the legitimacy of the 'giant' as a true morph. As I have said in many other threads on this subject, I have several adult geckos that are even bigger than some 'so-called' giants. Also, if you go to the Texas website and take a look at the 'giants' available for sale, their sizes and weights are within what I would consider to be normal for their ages. The vast majority of my 4-month old geckos weigh at least, if not more, than the posted weights.

 

[nevinm]

I have been reluctant to give all the reasons that I am 'skeptical' about the legitimacy of the 'giant' as a true morph. As I have said in many other threads on this subject, I have several adult geckos that are even bigger than some 'so-called' giants. Also, if you go to the Texas website and take a look at the 'giants' available for sale, their sizes and weights are within what I would consider to be normal for their ages. The vast majority of my 4-month old geckos weigh at least, if not more, than the posted weights.

as i said in my last post yes your producing animals that big. im not dineying that and i never was. but are you telling me your animals, and ill even give you the bennifit of the doubt even half your animals were that big in 2000?

 

[Paco]

as i said in my last post yes your producing animals that big. im not dineying that and i never was. but are you telling me your animals, and ill even give you the bennifit of the doubt even half your animals were that big in 2000?

I knew I had very few Big Leos back in 2001-2004 when I was doing Leos full time. The Biggest was a Tremper male who weighed 90 Grams and this was right around the time the Giants showed up. He was 2-3 years old at the time in 2001. Go figure. He had a 80 gram Stripe Albino son as well. Mom was around 70 grams.

My next Biggest male around 60-70 Gram Tang, and he was one of Albey's best of breeders at the time. bought him in 2002-2003.

Other wise all my other Leos average around 40-60grams. I had 80 Leos by the end of 2003 and a bunch of Ball pyhtons.

I have noticed that are a lot more big Leos out there.

 

[eric]

I can understand everyone that has bought or is dealing with the so called "Giants" are taking this thread very seriously because you guys have spent lots of money and time on your projects. And I feel for you all that are trying to prefect or prove the line. The problem I have is the "giants" were released as a recessive trait with no proof, went to the bank on the release and then the problems started. Are they or aren't recessive? Kudos to all of you who haven't gone to the bank on this and are actually doing research on the "giants" to prove what hadn't been proved!

 

[paulnj]

Read the file name:main_robin:

She's over 90 grams

no more post in this thread :main_lipsrsealed:

 

[Paco]

Read the file name:main_robin:

She's over 90 grams

no more post in this thread :main_lipsrsealed:

Paul... I know you said no more post but this is not about the thread its about the pics of the animal you posted.

6 months and 90 grams? Correct? Is she from Non " Giant" Lines or is she a "Giant"? Thanks and sorry I am making you post again. lol

Oh yea when was she produced? Let me know if you want to let her go as well.

 

[paulnj]

She's not leaving

She's actually almost 7 months old and around 94 grams(hard to get a good reading).


I assure you, she's a SG from SG X SG

 

[eric]

I assure you, she's a SG from SG X SG

Paul, can I assume when you say SG you're referring to it as a Super Giant?

What makes a Super Giant "Super"? Is this in reference to a Super form?

Also one could get confused :dizzy2: with all the astrology named geckos that this too is an astrologically named gecko. The Super giants can have masses from 10 to 70 solar masses and brightness from 30,000 up to hundreds of thousands times the solar luminosity. Because of their extreme masses they have short lifespans of 30 million years down to a few hundred thousand years.LOL!:main_laugh::main_thumbsup:

 

[paulnj]

Super giant.. PM the rest to you.

 

[SaSobek]

IMO

This "giant" thing, is as diluted as the line actually is at this point.

first off I did speak with Ron today on the matter. the following is what he told me, take it for what it is worth.

He said that the first "big baby" when it hatched did come from the bubba line. It was a normal het for albino and he said it was twice the size of a normal baby. it out grew all other geckos that he put it in with.
this was in 99 or 2000 can’t remember what year he said. back then the average size of geckos was much smaller then the geckos we have today. I would say 50-60 grams.

This big male was breed back to what was thought to be the group that it came from. This breeding created the now know Moose. That is why it was at first thought to be a recessive trait. because there wasn’t many that hatched that first year like the "big baby"

Ron did say that the "Big Baby" did get over 100 grams, For the time that is a huge gecko.

also from talking with Him he did say that the "giant gean" did get out, not all geckos that were "Giant" were sold as "giant".

Now my thoughts on the matter. I have seen some huge geckos. But the first thing i want to say is A FAT GECKO IS NOT A "GIANT". IMO from what i have seen working with the "giant line" they are a longer gecko not a fatter gecko. so when we are talking grams it means nothing. a 8" 90 gram gecko is fat an 11" 90 gram gecko looks so different. its like having a man/woman that is 5'2" and 180 lbs and a 6' one that is the same 180lbs big difference

now with that in mind "Giant Line" geckos are longer and typically not as "fat".
so is the length a genetic thing or is it something else?
i think each gecko dose have a size that it genetically is capable of getting. now whether it gets that big is on husbetry and how it the gecko is kept. Feeding, heat, stress, and cage space, are all factors that can have an effect on how big a gecko gets. i think that is why you see a lot of other big geckos in the hobby right now, Is because care is getting better and we are more aware of what our geckos need to be healthy. I think in some ways some geckos are to "healthy". IMO i don’t think that an over weight gecko is a healthy gecko as well. To much fat is bad for the liver and can cause problems. but that is a different topic all together.

"giant line" geckos are on the market and they are sold as they are not. this has been the case for years now. so saying that i think there is more "giants" that people don’t know about. it would be very easy for a "giant line" gecko that isn’t very big and maybe was bred early in life to not be as big as what she should/could be and for her to pass on the "giant" with out the breeder ever knowing. This with the fact that we are taking better care of our "non Giant" geckos it may be hard to really tell what is what.

I also think big gecko to big gecko you will get more big geckos. I cant say what the "giant gean" really is because it is all over the lines i work with. even my Radar and "typhoon" projects. The father of both was my male "pure" eclipse is a huge gecko it was up to 115 and is a long gecko. he did come from Mr. Tremper. but was not sold as a giant. But i have hatched some monsters out of that line.

I think more work needs to be done on the study of the "Giant Line" what nevnm is doing is great. im really trying this year to bring some old lines back. the "giant " is one of them. I do own Moose’s full brother he looks like crap. he has been through a fire, lost is tail, and when he was a baby moose bit of two of his toes. he is no where near the size he used to be but his babies this year so far are big (i didn’t breed him last year) My fear is that his days are Numbered and i think i have to get the babies out of him now while i can.

I am not saying there are giants and super giants and that isn’t co dom or recessive. I am saying that i have seen some big geckos and still have some. and i think it can be worked on to make bigger ones to a point. And maybe we can figure it out a little more. But fighting about what it is what it isn’t and who lied about what isn’t helping. We need to do the work and figure it all out.

Here are some “giant line”pics
Mammoth's 3 week old baby next to a 6 week old afghan baby

Female "giant line" (top) afghan female (bottom)

2 "giant line" females (not "super giant") as you can see longer look 85 grams each and not fat.

Afghan (bottom left) Eclipse from a "giant line"(middle left) Psp (top left) "giant line" (right)IMO she is a giant but not a super giant


same geckos you can see the "Giant line" albino alittle better

we all know how big a sharpie is. again this female is i would say a giant but not a super giant. IMO super giants are bigger.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

To where as that doesn't clear up the debate, it does eliminate some fog, thanks for that input.

 

[eric]

Matt, great stuff! The only thing that is misleading is your comparisons with the Giants to the afghans (photo). Afghans are much smaller than a normal leopard gecko. In turn, this gives the giants a much bigger appearance than a normal leopard gecko. IMO


And any negative comment that I may have about "big time" breeders whoever they may be is to expose there marketing BS to unsuspecting buyers! And I will not apologize for that!

 

[SaSobek]

Matt, great stuff! The only thing that is misleading is your comparisons with the Giants to the afghans (photo). Afghans are much smaller than a normal leopard gecko. In turn, this gives the giants a much bigger appearance than a normal leopard gecko. IMO

they were old pics (well a couple of weeks old)

they were more for a comparison biggest and smallest.

 

[SaSobek]

And any negative comment that I may have about "big time" breeders whoever they may be is to expose there marketing BS to unsuspecting buyers! And I will not apologize for that!

Maybe that is what he belives and dosent think he is wrong.

 

[eric]

Maybe that is what he belives and dosent think he is wrong.

Maybe that's the problem. For unsuspecting buyers thinking they've got one thing and then finding out its something else. I could be wrong but these "bigger breeders" need to be held countable for there claims.

 

[eric]

they were old pics (well a couple of weeks old)

they were more for a comparison biggest and smallest.

Got it!:main_thumbsup: Thanks Matt