The Reality of the Leopard Gecko Market

[stevehiss]

I just wanted to drop in here and post a few items about the Leo market that have been bothering me lately. But first, let me give you some background on where I am coming from.

I originally started HISS many years ago when I did not even know Kelli and I was very heavy into snakes. Back then there was no such thing as the internet, kingsnake.com and such. Snakes were sold the old-fashioned way, via a printed and mailed pricelist of projected offspring. At the peak of my game I had a mailing list of over 6000 names in the US and about 1000 names overseas. It cost me a bundle just to mail out the annual pricelist. I would then accept deposits prior to hatching and then fill the orders on a first-come-first-served basis. I did pretty well for myself and usually sold out. At one point I had over 400 snakes, from Burmese to sand boas to pituophis, etc. I did this nearly full time on top of my full time regular job as a reptile keeper at a zoo.

One year I decided to see how much I was actually making and tallied up the hours I spent on the animals and guess what, I was making less than $2 an hour working my buns off. I did it because I like it and because it greatly supplemented my zoo income.

One of my best investments back then were leopard geckos. One year I invested $10,000 in 0.7 patternless leos. This was the first big year they were available and they were already adults. Jay Vella and Mark Bell were the ones marketing these animals and they were only going to let 4.0 go that year, but guess what? They wanted $3500 for a male! I did not have that kind of cash, but with my 7 females I was able to get several het males of my own produced and up to breeding size in 6-7 months. The next year I made $15,000 on patternless leos and the year after that I made another $13,000. So, in a 3 year period from a $10,000 investment I made $28,000.

Sounds good doesn't it. Well, I had to produce a lot of them to make this money. By the next year after I bought the original females, males were selling for $1500 and females for under $1000. The year after that they had come down to around $500 each. Did I call Mark Bell or Jay Vella and complain about the price drop. NO! That is the gamble you take when you invest in a high turn around animal.

Here is another story. Kelli and I got suckered into the ball python craze a day late and a dollar short. We were coerced into getting a male Mojave Ball python for $10,000. We were told they were visual hets of blue eyed lucys, which they were. Well the male went off feed so I missed the next years breeding. On the second year he was feeding much better, got some good size on him and actually locked up with 7 large normal females. Since I had witnessed these breedings, we decided to sell the male. We could only get $3750 for him. What a hit that was! And, to top it off, not a single one of the females laid any eggs; none at all!

So what I am saying is that everyone needs to sit back, relax and enjoy their leos. Yes there have been some issues with the Enigmas and yes the price is going to drop and quick with any kind of dominant/codominant gene. Look at the ball python market now. So why am I even bringing this up? Well, Kelli has been getting a lot of grief from people about her geckos lately and has been getting blamed for a lot of the enigma issue and price problems. It is not her fault! She knows better than anyone what she is doing and what the value of a leopard gecko is. There are a lot of enigmas out there now and the price is going to come down. In fact, some of you that have given her grief lately are now dropping your prices on your ads! So, lets let everyone sell their animals for what they feel they are worth.

Another story that is directly related to the enigmas is that Mark Bell asked Kelli to help name and market them. Once they were out there we found out about others that had been sold in Europe and others that he had been selling at shows. Then we find out that he is selling some at shows for less than what he wants us to sell them for. Well, that is his right. He produced them and he can sell them for whatever he wants to. Did it make us happy? NO. Was there anything we could do about it? NO. Be prepared folks. He is going to have a lot of enigmas for sale this year at the shows that he attends and he is going to sell them for what he thinks he can get for them.

So lets say that you invested $4000 in a pair of red eyed Bell enigmas last year. This year you produce 20 babies and end up selling them for only $1000. Guess what, you just made a quick profit of $16,000 in one year! Can you go do that on the stock market? NO. Ok, lets say that they only sell for $500 the next year. Guess what, you still made an $8000 profit from your original $4000 investment.

So, the moral to the story is that anyone can sell their leos for whatever they want to. It is up to the buying public to decide what they are really worth. There is a lot more that I would like to say but I think that I have been long winded enough for now.

All comments are welcomed. These thoughts and comments are my own and based on a lot of experience.

 

[fallen_angel]

I knew absolutely nothing about the reptile market until a year ago when we decided to look for a bearded dragon. Needless to say, it wasn't long before we stumbled upon classifieds for leopard geckos. This, and a number of other things, inspired us to breed and sell our own, and we have enjoyed every second of it.

I am understanding the market a lot better from just being a member on these forums, and I am glad that you put it all together in one great explanation We imagine that we won't even break even with what we have spent for at least a year, but we are fine with that. This really has become a wonderful and exciting hobby, and the season has only just begun

Thanks for sharing your personal stories, I'm still relatively new to the forums and love reading about everyone's experiences in the reptile market

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Steve and Kelli... unfortunately, leopard geckos are like the 'Pyramid Scheme' of the 1970's when people thought they could get rich quick. Unless someone is lucky enough to get in from the ground floor with a new leopard gecko morph, they are really not an 'investment' unless you look at the long-term return on investment with their offspring.

ANY market driven product (yes, leopard geckos are a product) will go down in value once there are enough of them to satisfy the market. The more there are, the less demand, and then the prices naturally will fall.

It would be great if we could have a covert operation to keep the value of a leopard gecko morph up, but the reality is that when more people have them, those selling them need to move them. Not everyone has the luxury of hanging on to their geckos indefinitely... taking up room and covering their care and feeding expenses, if no one is buying them!

Let's face it. There are a LOT of geckos for sale. A lot of them are Enigmas. We all knew that would be the case. I'm just glad they have held their value better and longer than the Mack Snow did... going from $2,800 to $100 in about a year.

Gee... it's April 2008. I sure will be excited when I produce MY first Enigma! I'll probably keep it!

 

[fallen_angel]

That being said about the Mack Snow line, will the price now stay the same around $100, or do you suspect that it will decline even further?

 

[Leopardbreeder]

I have seen alot of crap about these enigmas this year (Not blaming anyone). All I see any more is drama in this market and community, and I got fed up after just a year. I CANNOT imagine what kind of grief and heartache that you and Kelli put up with. It is no one fault like you said. Its a market, its expect.

This year, and probably forever, I will not breed. I have decided to sell off most of my small stock and focus on feeders. I got into the feeder industry because I saw that there was alot of opportunity to get big. I like the reptile market, but there is too much drama involved. In the 'feeder community', there is alot of competition, but everyone expects that. Believe it or not, I know most of the insect breeders in the US. Some I like, some I dont, but I get over it. I know people like Jack Armstrong. He is a great guy, and he runs an honest business. I wish that everyone in the Gecko industry did also.

I am sorry for all the garbage that people are giving you Steve and Kelli. I wish it wasn't happening, but I think things will settle down after a year or two. Hang in there, I am with you guys all the way (I know it doesn't mean much to anyone else, but you have my support).

 

[DAWNoftheLEO]

Good read, appreciate it Steve.

 

[Gecko]

I'd think the economy in general is going to make the market take a hit.

 

[OhioGecko]

Steve,

I belive it is called "supply and demand", and if someone doesn't understand that concept...... Well they shouldn't be in business.

Unfortunately in business it seems that the top people in that industry are also susceptible to attacks. Kelli is the top dog out there right now so expect some mud to be thrown. I know it is hard not to take it personal but be careful about getting worked up over things that can't be controlled. Such as pricing and fertility. If you sell juvi or first year breeder there is no way you can tell if it is fertile. If they want a for sure proven leo than they should wait, but if they wait then the price goes down for their leos and they can't make as much money. Geez Steve, can't you just guarantee them that they will make a certain amount if they breed leos that are purchased from you. Where's your crystal ball? As you implied Steve, some investments turn out better than others. They are all gambles! I would assume that as your become a veteran breeder that you can change the odds favorably but there is still a gamble with every leo purchased.

The problem is that people are trying to get rich without putting the time and effort into something long term. I'm new to the gecko world but not business. I would think that the breeders that have successful businesses would understand this, the majority of your issues are going to come from home breeders or small breeders that used the money to buy the leo when they should have made their house payment......

I got into leos to show my two sons business concepts. It's a fairly inexpensive (5k so far) business to start, we can do it from our home, and it requires them to put effort into it everyday. I can tell you that they understand that the value of Enigma's are going to go down as there are more produced. They are 11 and 9. We discussed this 6 months ago when we first found out about Enigmas and was deciding wether to get one or not. We decided not to and wait until the prices dropped. We figured they would drop the most after new Enigma hatchlings hatched. Guess what, a couple of weeks ago we bought an Enigma from a gentleman who bought it from Kelli, and we paid him half of what he paid for it less than a year ago. My boys know that they will probably have to sell 3-4 hatchlings to pay for this one because everyone is breeding them and the price is going to drop. So if you have any troubles explaining this to a disgruntled customer I can have my 9 year old PM them

 

[Ccrashca069]

Hey Steve,

I know you don't post very much. Thanks for taking the time and posting this. I think you and Kelli produce amazing leopard geckos. There are alot I would love to have but can't afford right now the Enigma being one of them. On saying that I enjoy the basic Hi-Yellow morphs. I have a few of them and they have alot of personality. People who buy new Morphs know that certain Morphs are new and not much info about them. If they don't like how their reptile came out, they new the risk. I enjoy all my leopards and they very in Morphs from normals, Hi-Yellows, tangs, Bell and Mack Snows. I think it should always be for the love of Reptiles not lets make alot of money at Breeding. If you want to make money, take the money for Reptiles and invest in the Stock Market. At leaste you will make money. There is nothing almost as satisfing as waking up in the morning or at night and seeing hatchlings you produced. That is like the Ultimate high for me.

 

[MSMD]

Steve,
Thank you for the insight from someone that has long been in the reptile hobby/business. Very good read. Let me say that I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and Kelli both. Everyone wants to blame someone else if things don't go the way the want them to. Kelli has been nothing but professional, curteous and helpful in my eyes. It's been a true pleasure to be able to gain some knowledge from her! You are both a true asset to the gecko/reptile community and have produced some wonderful animals!

This is my first season breeding leos. For me, it is a hobby and for the love of them. I don't care if I hatch a new morph or a normal. These little guys are just great to work with. I do hope to sell some babies (after all, I can only fit so many racks in the gecko room!). I DON'T expect to get rich. Honestly, I don't even expect to break even. If I do, wonderful. If not, I just hope to help offset the cost of my new 'addiction'.

Keep your chins up! You have MANY supporters! :main_yes:

 

[SleepyDee]

hi all
Now I'm only a small-time hobbyist who breeds a few each year because I enjoy doing so (most of which I try and find excuses to keep lol) ~ so maybe my thoughts don't count for much ~ but two quotes stand out for me here; one from Steve when he said ~

"So what I am saying is that everyone needs to sit back, relax and enjoy their leos."

and one from Ccrashca069 who said ~

"I think it should always be for the love of Reptiles not lets make alot of money at Breeding. If you want to make money, take the money for Reptiles and invest in the Stock Market. At leaste you will make money. There is nothing almost as satisfing as waking up in the morning or at night and seeing hatchlings you produced. That is like the Ultimate high for me."

both of which I heartily agree with ~ though on occasion waking up to a fresh cup of coffee can sometimes beat the high of leo hatchlings
I know folks have to cover things such as feeding, care etc (and I know how expensive it can get with just a few leos lol) but sometimes it seems to come across that the dollar/pound is the driving force and the joy of keeping/breeding these lovely reptiles has kind of flown out of the window

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

...sometimes it seems to come across that the dollar/pound is the driving force and the joy of keeping/breeding these lovely reptiles has kind of flown out of the window

So what I am saying is that everyone needs to sit back, relax and enjoy their leos.

That's EXACTLY what I'm going to do... hold some of my geckos!

 

[nwheat]

Very well said, Steve!

I've actually been very pleasantly surprised by how well the Enigmas have held their price in comparison to the Mack snows. Those that are complaining must have very short memories, or very unrealistic expectations.

So what I am saying is that everyone needs to sit back, relax and enjoy their leos.

This is what it's all about!! :main_yes:

 

[DanTheFireman]

Hey Steve, it's great to hear from you now and then. Thank you for the realistic viewpoint. A few months back, knowing that the prices are dropping I picked up a Tremper Enigma het Raptor hatchling, already having a killer breeding size male doing his thing. The little guy wasn't cheap by any means but was so incredibly beautiful it was easy to justify to myself the need for a backup just in case. If they drop to a tenth of the price of this guy, 1. I'll have gotten the purchase price in enjoyment every time I look at him, 2. If he sires ten babies he'll have paid for himself and still be here with me, 3. I'd be drooling looking at him on someone else's posts and probably dehydrate, 4. Need I continue?
Anything can happen in this "business". Breeders can be duds, unfortunately living things can sometimes die and it's usually the ones you're counting on the most that oblige. I tried to ignore the Enigmas but there are so many neat possibilities with them that pure lust took over. Even with all the issues, BS and drama going on, no regrets here. You guys have been far more than fair in taking care of your customers, as always.

 

[Franks_Geckos]

This is a Great Read. I find it sad that some people would have the nerve to sling mud at Kelli or whomever they bought their Enigmas from. If the people who are doing the complaining had any foresight, they would know that the same situation Steve described (brilliantly, I might add) that happened with the Patternless (and pretty much every new morph since) will eventually, but inevitably, repeat itself with the Enigma. The price on almost all Enigmas (save for a few combo morphs that are being sold) will certainly drop like a stone very soon (actually sell prices have already started to drop quite a bit on some classifieds). It is a dominant morph that produces like offspring with the first breeding, so it's pretty easy to figure the rapid price drop that will occur. In one year there are hundreds more available then the previous year. The supply is higher than the demand. A 9 year old grasps this concepts as someone previously pointed out. All of the breeders that shelled out large sums of cash to get in on this morph as early as possible with the "objective" of turning an extremely large profit may still make a fair amount of money and they should just be happy with whatever profit they make. The sheer number of people producing the Enigmas in large numbers dictates that people will sell them for whatever they feel they can get for them. Only the first people to sell them wind up making the kind of money some people think they can make because they set the market price. If Mark Bell sells them for 300 dollars each at a show this year and sells out, good for him. That is his right. He probably has a bunch of them to sell and can AFFORD to sell them that cheap because he didn't invest a mortgage payment on one male breeder or a female that could have been infertile. Again, that is his right, and neither he, nor Kelli, or anyone else that sells anything, should have to listen to people whine about the obvious GAMBLE they took buying something new unless there was a GUARANTEE attached to it, which would therefore negate it actually being a gamble. If someone doesn't capitalize on the new morph to the extent they thought they would have when they jumped in on the ground floor?.... well that's just too bad. They can throw themselves a pity party and take donations at the door. I don't even own an Enigma. The only geckos I have ever bought come from proceeds from my hobby / business, and quite frankly, I would never spend the type of money some people are asking for their Enigmas. I do like the way they look, especially considering the randomness they all possess, however, when I decide the price is right for me to get one, I would never have the nerve to complain to the person that sells it to me. My goal with most of my projects is to make best examples of the morphs I work with and continue to improve them where I can. Sometimes I may have to work with hets for a couple of years and sometimes I can afford to buy one that puts me one step closer to what I want to hatch. The bottom line is that if you have been in the game for a while you know how it works and should just understand that there are no "get rich quick" futures in Leopard Gecko breeding. Just because the guy down the road sells his geckos for less than I do, I can't call him a villain. He is doing what he has to do or can afford to do. If I can't make enough money on what I sell to sustain my hobby/business to a level I am comfortable with, then that is just a sign that I am in the wrong business or am not a good business person. The difference is, that I enjoy what I do, and primarily consider this Leopard Gecko breeding gig a passion and a hobby, like many others here, and you really can't complain about that. If others were foolish enough to see it as a "grand business plan" they probably are the ones that feel like they are getting salt poured on their wounds every time a price drop is initiated by someone selling the same thing they are. I don't fell sorry for these people, and why should I?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

The bottom line is that if you have been in the game for a while you know how it works and should just understand that there are no "get rich quick" futures in Leopard Gecko breeding.

Very true... unless you are one of the "Fab Four" with your own name attatched to a 'new' morph. I am guessing that even one or two of them are feeling cramps right now, as well.

 

[Franks_Geckos]

Very true... unless you are one of the "Fab Four" with your own name attatched to a 'new' morph. I am guessing that even one or two of them are feeling cramps right now, as well.

Marcia,
You are killing me. "Fab Four" .... Too funny. Good to see that your spirits are up a bit. I may not agree with everything anyone says or does, or how they operate, and I may not even admit to being friends with some people....lol but people in the hobby should at least accept reality and deal with their skewed version of it accordingly as opposed to playing the blame game on someone who more or less sold them a really nice pet that they wrongly imagined was a golden goose. It is not like these people got a tip on Disney stock and they lost their life savings the next day when the market dropped out.

 

[SteveB]

Frank the only issue I have with your statement is that while a businessman or investor with any common sense would be able to identify the risks, most of us hobbyists are quite literally addicted. I forget who it was that had drawn a very strong comparison between drug addiction and gecko ownership, but I found it to be incredibly accurate. And unfortunately I think many of us are addicted not only to continually acquiring more, but also to the rush of producing animals to place on the market and the praise/attention for making available.

 

[Franks_Geckos]

Frank the only issue I have with your statement is that while a businessman or investor with any common sense would be able to identify the risks, most of us hobbyists are quite literally addicted. I forget who it was that had drawn a very strong comparison between drug addiction and gecko ownership, but I found it to be incredibly accurate. And unfortunately I think many of us are addicted not only to continually acquiring more, but also to the rush of producing animals to place on the market and the praise/attention for making available.

Steve,
While I totally understand the addiction to Leopard Geckos, I just find it humorous in a twisted way that someone would blame the guy on the corner who peddles the crack for their disease or any side effect of it. It should be pointed out that these same crack peddlers are rarely addicts themselves because they know being an addict themselves is bad for business and could put them in a bad situation alot sooner than just looking at the business end of it. The comparison I am drawing is not far away from Leos in that the most successful (and it really depends on how you define success) people in the business are the ones who are not "in love" with their geckos.....they are the ones that mass produce and proliferate the market with cheaper wholesale geckos that don't receive personal attention and care. It is sad.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Steve, I have re-read your post several times, and get something different out of it every time I do. It's great to hear your perspective!

Did any of you out there know that I have NEVER produced a single Super Snow? It wasn't that I didn't want to. It just never worked out.

I bought 1.1 Super Snows and a 'free' co-dom female from John Mack at a show over 3 years ago for $3,200. I was on the tail-end of the Mack marketing frenzy, and knew that if I just waited another 6 months or so the prices would be more affordable... but when I saw 'Luna', I was completely smitten by her. I even slept on it so I wouldn't be making an emotional, impulse purchase. When I held her again the following day, my heart skipped and I felt butterflies in my stomach... just like being in love for the first time.

My young male Super Snow would not thrive, and died about 9 months later. I was devastated. But, what was even more devastating for me was when Luna got to be 2 years old, she still only weighed 38 grams. She had never even ovulated. By this time, Super Snows were selling for around $250... a mere 10% of what they were priced less than two years prior, and I had not a single egg laid.

Was I mad at John Mack for selling me the geckos? Nope. Was I mad that their value had the bottom fall out? A little. If I was going to be mad at anyone, I could have been mad at myself for paying that much money for geckos that were essentially 'worthless' a couple of years later... but I wasn't.

Today, Luna is over 3 years old, weighs 61 grams, and just laid her second clutch of eggs. Still, I have yet to hatch a single Super Snow. And, still, every time I hold Luna my heart skips a beat and I get butterflies in my stomach... exactly like it did 3 years ago when I fell in love with her.

I can't wait until I hatch my first Super Snow!