The Reality of the Leopard Gecko Market

[LadyGecko]

Steve-thank you so very much for a very well written post with a lot of thought put into it and thanks to everyone for their personal perspective on this subject

I have been Oohing and Ahhing at the Enigmas since I first got a peek at them-which was here on this forum

I did see a couple in person at Tinley last year but they were nothing in appearance compared to what is coming up with the various crosses this year

I knew (as I have known in the past with every new morph) that there was NO Way that I could afford one (or two-lol) until the price dropped considerably

I knew that this would be at least a couple of years down the road and while I do really want one-I am OK with waiting for them to become affordable for me
Also thanks to the honesty put forth by many of the breeders involved with this incredible morph about their circling issues etc.- I would like to wait and see what happens with further out crossing

But-then again-since my purchase of an Enigma will most likely be as a pet-at least for the first 2 or so years of it's life-I may buy one this year if they become affordable for me
It will all depend upon finding one that I want-and having the money at the time

I had had my eyes opened by the forthright posts presented here about various issues with all of the new morphs that previously were not common knowledge and I am grateful for this information being shared here

I really do admire the people here that have selflessly shared this information with the goal of trying to figure out exactly what the problem is or at least breeding it out of the Enigma morph

In recent years believe that gecko keepers have come together and become a real caring community like never before
I know that I have had some wonderful people that are here on this forum go out of their way to ensure that i was able to fulfill many wishes and there are some extremely generous people out there

I thank you all so very much for how happy that you folks have made me with making it possible for me to enjoy all of my lovely geckos

I have kept Leos and other lizards for many years now and most of you know that I do very little breeding
Some of this was due to a dismal failure with incubating/hatching eggs (with Loes) in the past and some due to a couple of females refusing to ever eat again after laying

I had a lot of problems with the few pairings that I did per year and stopped putting them together to breed for the last year or so

I was really frustrated with those problems because I thought that I was doing everything the way that it should be done-feeding-supplements etc and I was breeding fat and healthy Leos that were much more than the minimum weight and age that had never had any health issues

I read the forums constantly (this one mostly) for information and insight as to what I could have been doing wrong and I adjusted/changed what I thought the problems might have been from reading about the same problems that other people had

I am going to give breeding a go again this year with 2 females paired to a proven male

I also never went crazy with placing males and females together to breed because I did not want to put myself in the position of having too many little ones to feed/clean and run into problems with providing the crucial care that they need as babies because of my varying health issues

OH-I do drool at everyones babies here and I do get just a little jealous at times but -I am sincerely happy for what everyone produces and I do realize the amount of work that it takes for them to do this and that the average financial gain is never much when the hours and effort are added up

I also keep species of lizards that I have never had any definite breeding plans for-Blue Tongues are one and I have many more pet Bearded Dragons than breeders
I just enjoy them for their beauty and what they are

BUT-as was stated-the money is not what most gecko people are all about-it is the love of the animal

I am sorry to read that Kelli is getting a lot of flack from some people
That is certainly uncalled for and just plain ignorant-imho

Well-that's my side of it from a person that has never really gotten into the business end of it after keeping Leos for over 10 years and enjoying each and every minute of doing so

Sandy

 

[fallen_angel]

Steve, I have re-read your post several times, and get something different out of it every time I do. It's great to hear your perspective!

Did any of you out there know that I have NEVER produced a single Super Snow? It wasn't that I didn't want to. It just never worked out.

I bought 1.1 Super Snows and a 'free' co-dom female from John Mack at a show over 3 years ago for $3,200. I was on the tail-end of the Mack marketing frenzy, and knew that if I just waited another 6 months or so the prices would be more affordable... but when I saw 'Luna', I was completely smitten by her. I even slept on it so I wouldn't be making an emotional, impulse purchase. When I held her again the following day, my heart skipped and I felt butterflies in my stomach... just like being in love for the first time.

My young male Super Snow would not thrive, and died about 9 months later. I was devastated. But, what was even more devastating for me was when Luna got to be 2 years old, she still only weighed 38 grams. She had never even ovulated. By this time, Super Snows were selling for around $250... a mere 10% of what they were priced less than two years prior, and I had not a single egg laid.

Was I mad at John Mack for selling me the geckos? Nope. Was I mad that their value had the bottom fall out? A little. If I was going to be mad at anyone, I could have been mad at myself for paying that much money for geckos that were essentially 'worthless' a couple of years later... but I wasn't.

Today, Luna is over 3 years old, weighs 61 grams, and just laid her second clutch of eggs. Still, I have yet to hatch a single Super Snow. And, still, every time I hold Luna my heart skips a beat and I get butterflies in my stomach... exactly like it did 3 years ago when I fell in love with her.

I can't wait until I hatch my first Super Snow!

That was a very nice little story Marcia, thanks for sharing

 

[LadyGecko]

That was a very nice little story Marcia, thanks for sharing

I agree-thanks Marcia for sharing that with us
I hope that you get your wish for SS this year

:main_yes:

 

[fallen_angel]

Steve,
While I totally understand the addiction to Leopard Geckos, I just find it humorous in a twisted way that someone would blame the guy on the corner who peddles the crack for their disease or any side effect of it. It should be pointed out that these same crack peddlers are rarely addicts themselves because they know being an addict themselves is bad for business and could put them in a bad situation alot sooner than just looking at the business end of it. The comparison I am drawing is not far away from Leos in that the most successful (and it really depends on how you define success) people in the business are the ones who are not "in love" with their geckos.....they are the ones that mass produce and proliferate the market with cheaper wholesale geckos that don't receive personal attention and care. It is sad.

I understand what you are saying, but just because a person is in love with their geckos, addicted to continuously aquiring more and the rush of seeing what you produce, does not mean that they cannot be as successful (which also depends on how you define success).. I just want to say that unlike a drug addict who is also consuming their "stash," we can control ourselves from keeping every gecko we produce. The addiction also doesn't cause the gecko owner to fall into some downward spiral of hopelessness (imagine the crazy cat lady from the Simpsons, except with geckos LOL).. But most importantly, I would personally rather buy from this type of person because I know that they have the time to give the personal attention and care to each and every one, resulting in friendlier/more tame geckos.

 

[Mel&Keith]

I know Keith is still kicking himself in the you know what for selling all of his possible Patternless hets way back when....they proved to be hets and made someone else a lot of money.

We have a lot of money invested in Enigmas and we kept every single one we produced last year. We have yet to hatch one this year, the odds just haven't been with us. I guess I can't get upset because I don't ever expect to break even in Leopard Geckos. There's always a new one I want and I never want to sell anything we hatch so by the time we do have some to sell, I'll be happy with whatever the market will allow. There are never any guarantees when you're dealing with living things!

 

[SteveB]

I understand what you are saying, but just because a person is in love with their geckos, addicted to continuously aquiring more and the rush of seeing what you produce, does not mean that they cannot be as successful (which also depends on how you define success).. I just want to say that unlike a drug addict who is also consuming their "stash," we can control ourselves from keeping every gecko we produce. The addiction also doesn't cause the gecko owner to fall into some downward spiral of hopelessness (imagine the crazy cat lady from the Simpsons, except with geckos LOL).. But most importantly, I would personally rather buy from this type of person because I know that they have the time to give the personal attention and care to each and every one, resulting in friendlier/more tame geckos.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my input, I see where you are coming from completely. I didn't say that success couldn't be achieved, but certainly very few achieve the level that they are striving for (hence the frequently repeated threads where the "big" breeders / old timers chime in with the reality check statements that they are happy to break even often).

However from that point onwards, I think much of the sentiment offered in reply to Marcia's recent thread would be interesting to reread with this line of thought in mind... it does add some credence to this particular comparison.

Anyway, I don't want to detract from what Steve said, just trying to add a little more to think about from my perspective. I think it's terrific that Steve made this thread, we all need to read and reread it. Truly a thought inspiring post.

 

[fallen_angel]

I knew (as I have known in the past with every new morph) that there was NO Way that I could afford one (or two-lol) until the price dropped considerably

I knew that this would be at least a couple of years down the road and while I do really want one-I am OK with waiting for them to become affordable for me
Also thanks to the honesty put forth by many of the breeders involved with this incredible morph about their circling issues etc.- I would like to wait and see what happens with further out crossing

Same here I wish you the best of luck with breeding your females this year Sandy!!!!

 

[fallen_angel]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my input, I see where you are coming from completely. I didn't say that success couldn't be achieved, but certainly very few achieve the level that they are striving for (hence the frequently repeated threads where the "big" breeders / old timers chime in with the reality check statements that they are happy to break even often).

However from that point onwards, I think much of the sentiment offered in reply to Marcia's recent thread would be interesting to reread with this line of thought in mind... it does add some credence to this particular comparison.

Anyway, I don't want to detract from what Steve said, just trying to add a little more to think about from my perspective. I think it's terrific that Steve made this thread, we all need to read and reread it. Truly a thought inspiring post.

Thanks I also just wanted to add one last thing about all of the time, effort, and hours put into taking extra care of leos.. Personally (and I'm sure many other people are the same) I do not even consider these aspects of breeding to be "work" by any means. Yes, it can be time consuming, but it's fun and exciting, not dull and boring like regular work can be. That's what ultimately makes this hobby rewarding, regardless of whether you make a profit, break even, or lose money..

and I agree, this is a fantastic thread

 

[hopingforbabies]

I am new to geckos,but the money doesn't bother me.All hobbies cost money!.A friend of mine plays golf every weekend he can,it costs like $80. every time.I have several boas that I just ordered over $500. in feeder rats,hobbies cost money!! Did I mention I have yet to produce a sucsessful litter! I just hope I can produce some just to sustain the hobby and I am happy.

 

[traffic]

I am sorry that you are having to deal with "crap" from people Steve and Kelli.
It sucks. I have to agree with what most people are saying. Unfortunately though in business it happens. Being an ex business owner I understand how frustrating it can be when you deal with "some" people.




If someone didnt see this comming they are not really very bright.

So lets say that you invested $4000 in a pair of red eyed Bell enigmas
last year. This year you produce 20 babies and end up selling them for only $1000.
Guess what, you just made a quick profit of $16,000 in one year!
Can you go do that on the stock market?
NO. Ok, lets say that they only sell for $500 the next year.
Guess what, you still made an $8000 profit from your original $4000 investment.

If you know anything about business it isnt very complicated! (see above)


I havent been around here GF very long as a member.
I have been keeping Geckos for a few years and breeding for going on my 3rd season.
Although I was hoping for my hobby to pay for itself its hard for the small time breeder.
This year I have finally covered all my expense for the first year and a half. All I am striving for is to make sure
I can make the money to pay for my feeding expenses and enough to buy the next animal.
I am one who really ENJOYS cleaning day. I love getting to see my animals, Watching them thrive
and enjoying their personalities and watching all the little ones grow and change.
I am the domestic one at home and do all the cleaning, laundry, bathrooms, pick up after four kids, do dinner and homework
and at the end of that kind of day I look forward to going to feed and clean my animals.
Call me crazy, but thats just me.

I appreicate all that you and Kelli are doing for this community. You have made a great place
for people with a similar interest to "hang out" take a break for a little while and maybe even make
some friends that you otherwise might not have ever met. Try not to take it to heart too much. I know its hard not to when you are
passionate about something.
Well I am rambling on so I will shut up now.

I do have my own beef though.

Will you please UPDATE your site already,
I am very impatient and would like to see some of your animals for this season.

 

[fallen_angel]

Couldn't have said it any better Kevin

 

[KelliH]

Will you please UPDATE your site already,
I am very impatient and would like to see some of your animals for this season.

My season got started late and I am only now beginning to hatch babies. I'll update it when I have enough geckos available to make it worth updating, don't worry!

 

[AVALover5498]

Wow, this is a very interesting thread. I'll admit that coming into leopard geckos I had this half witted Idea that I would become this huge breeder and make loads of money. But I understand that this isn't going to happen. I love leo's for what they are....amazing little lizards that make me smile everytime I see them. That being said. I do plan on breeding. Just not for my original purpose.

Plus, I pretty much only like patternless albino's and we all know how much they are worth haha.

-Chris-

 

[DanTheFireman]

Another story that is directly related to the enigmas is that Mark Bell asked Kelli to help name and market them. Once they were out there we found out about others that had been sold in Europe and others that he had been selling at shows. Then we find out that he is selling some at shows for less than what he wants us to sell them for. Well, that is his right. He produced them and he can sell them for whatever he wants to. Did it make us happy? NO. Was there anything we could do about it? NO.

All comments are welcomed. These thoughts and comments are my own and based on a lot of experience.

One last thought, I feel that with the price tags on some of these morphs there should come a certain common courtesy. This "sandbagging", letting people think they're getting a chance to be among the first to produce something new because the cost of admission is so high, and then miraculously pulling a bunch more out of the magic hat DOES make some people unhappy. Thank God most of us use more discretion.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

One last thought, I feel that with the price tags on some of these morphs there should come a certain common courtesy. This "sandbagging", letting people think they're getting a chance to be among the first to produce something new because the cost of admission is so high, and then miraculously pulling a bunch more out of the magic hat DOES make some people unhappy. Thank God most of us use more discretion.

Dan... thank you for having the 'stones' to say that. It is an unfortunate fact. I agree... thank God that the great majority of us here on GeckoForums.net do not play by those set of ethics.

 

[PaulSage]

Steve, thanks for the insightful and all-too-necessary thread.

I'm glad you and Kelli are addressing these issues publicly. I'm just sorry you have to put up with this nonsense. Anyone who purchases, receives in trade, or is gifted an animal they hope to breed should appreciate the opportunity and be glad if that animal ever reproduces for them because breeding reptiles is a risk. It's a gamble. As Marcia mentioned, there is no guarantee that a given gecko is going to ever produce for someone, nor is there a guarantee that by acquiring a "rare" morph that you're going to make boatloads of money off it. We see it happen all the time to friends and fellow breeders, but for some it seems they don't really accept this reality nor the reality of economics and markets when they're confronted by their own hopes or intentions. If "J. Doe" places a bet and loses, whose fault is it but his that he's out his wager? Blaming someone else is just irresponsible and despicable.

 

[MSMD]

but for some it seems they don't really accept this reality nor the reality of economics and markets when they're confronted by their own hopes or intentions. If "J. Doe" places a bet and loses, whose fault is it but his that he's out his wager? Blaming someone else is just irresponsible and despicable.

:main_yes:

 

[Sandra]

Just another unlucky story for the record.

I bought a Bell enigma for the same reason Dan bought his Tremper enigma, because it was a beauty and fell in love in the same moment I saw it. Even if I could have waited until the price had dropped, I didn't want to see it in anyone's hands but mine!

It was incubated for male, but I didn't know the gender for sure. I still made all my plans supposing it was a male. It turned out to be a female. The breeder very kindly offered to give me a non-albino baby enigma incubated for male and, just in case she turned out to be female too, a stunning visually sexed male Bell albino. And guess what, the baby enigma also turned out to be female!

But things don't end there, the Bell enigma is utterly crazy and I have trouble feeding her, so she can't be bred. It seems like I all odds are against me, but I was prepared for that. I'm not going to lie, there's many times I'm jealous when I see the geckos some people have/produce. There's many times I think "Why can't it be me?".

But I am happy with my geckos. In a different way from what I had expected, but happy nonetheless. I wouldn't change them for anything. If I had to pay again for that crazy unbreedable female gecko that was supposed to be a super stud, I would, because she is beautiful and lovely and makes me smile when I look at her.

Of course it hurts that something you invested on doesn't give you any profit, but if you are aware that these things can happen and haven't risked your financial situation with that move (which would be a very dumb thing to do in my opinion...) I think you can still enjoy the experience.

 

[lytlesnake]

I will attempt to post from the perspective of someone who bought an enigma with problems without ruffling any feathers.

Yes the price of a dominant morph is pretty much guaranteed to drop quicker than that of animals bred from recessive traits. I knew this before I bought my enigmas. While I agree that one should not get upset about dropping prices with any morph, I do think people have a legitimate right to be disappointed when animals exhibit neurological problems that appear to be genetic in origin. I don't think it's fair to label such a person as despicable or ignorant. It depends on their motivations I guess. If they are motivated by greed, then you can call them what you like.

Also, there is a difference between expressing disappointment and blaming someone. If I had said "It's the breeders fault that I am not getting rich on these things", that would be uncool on my part. I do not, however, think it's unreasonable to be a little upset when you pay a lot for a gecko that walks in circles and can barely manage to eat because it can hardly see and has balance problems. It always saddens me to see the animal in this state. Not because I won't be making money from breeding her, but because I feel badly for the poor gecko.

To be clear, I did not purchase my "special needs" Enigma from either Kelli or Paul, or from Mark or anyone else mentioned in this thread for that matter. I do not blame the person I bought her from for anything. Nobody can control the DNA of a leopard gecko. We can breed different geckos to each other, but when a new morph randomly pops out of someone's collection, there is no guarantee that it will be free of genetic anomalies. Therefore, nobody is to blame.

It frankly sucks that anyone is getting grief over this stuff. I can see where repeated negative comments would start to get more than annoying. This is a wonderful hobby. When it becomes part hobby and part business though, there becomes a potential for conflicted feelings. I think most people who breed and sell leopard geckos really do love and respect them. Just because someone expresses their frustration over a situation that didn't work out as they had hoped does not automatically make them Hitler. They're most likely a good, caring person who just got a little carried away for a moment and typed something that they could have worded a little better. I think most of us have probably done that at one time or another.

 

[mcvancleave]

Wow sorry to see so much heartache people are seeing. Our first geckos were bought because my kids saw some in a pet store. We went home did some research on them and looked to buy one. About that time we found out my nephew had had one for 2 years and off to Florida we went so they could really see a healthy one. After reading and talking I bought 2 males from a breeder in Florida. After 2 years with our males I wanted to get some females. Off to Orlando to the show where I got my 2 females. Now with all these I now have a BABY tremper (So cute) and get 2 more adults this weekend. I have my nephew who wants a baby from his girl and so other relatives that want one. Now I had a local pet store that saw one of my posts ask me just yesterday if I would want to supply them with babies when I could. Said all they can get is albino and jungle. They went through the whole how easier it is to guarantee and get quality geckos from someone that breeds them then a warehouse that just "pumps" them out. I have not thought about selling them on any level I have actually removed my male from the females I do not have anything that would break the bank, I pay my house payment. I would like to break even on selling a few babies to cover this or that but by no means can I quit my day job. We bought a fancy looking 1 room storage unit my wife wants to convert and put the Leos in there if we look to have anymore than what we have. My goal is for my kids to make some money on something. They clean the cages, feed and even talk to them. Selling some would be a good way for them to learn about money and a business along with the value of a dolllor earned instead of given.
My little story may be off topic but I do not plan to be the man in geckos or even make a dent in the community, I would love to be a part of the community and hope this continues to be a learning experience and hobby.
Not everyone can play Everquest 2 24/7