The WORST season in Golden Gate Geckos' history!

[Starwild]

I'm not a breeder, but I'm sorry to hear all the trouble you've been having!

I wanted to mention this might fall under the jurisdiction of the Food and Drug Administration--I know it sounds strange, but they're the ones who investigated the issue with melamine in cat and dog foods. It might be worth it to get some kind of statement together and pass it along to them, or at least give them a call. It couldn't hurt.

 

[puppiesandkitties]

I have experienced problems with my mealworms too. Some of them would look like they are about to pupate, when really, they are dying. They will turn completely pale (without shedding-I have wittnessed this before, because I wanted to see one pupate) and they would curl up at the front, then die, looking like a pale candy cane. More than 15 of them are like that. Yesterday, when I went to my local pet store, they will not have any in due to the national shortage until September. Them dying like that is weird. Is this a result of them being treated not to pupate if they were?

I do not feed mealies to my adults, because the pet store sell small ones and they will take forever eating them. So I am not worried about them or their eggs. They feed off of crickets, waxworms, and supers. The mealies are for the hatchling I have and some will have. But now, they will only have to feed off of crickets and small supers.

But I do recognize one thing: My supers come packaged with oatmeal and carrots. The carrots are moldy

 

[Griesi]

A friend of mine is working for one of the biggest whoesalers in europe- this week was the first week where they did not get ANY mealworms. Don`t know if the supplier imports from the USA or breeds himself.

It may be interesting that my season here in germany started good- out of around 100 (lets make it 100%) eggs the first 40% turned into nice and perfect hatchlings- then something changed with the eggs being produced then: 10% ended in embryos dying shortly before hatching (with some of them being deformed), the rest are eggs that start collapsing and moulding:main_thumbsdown:

I feed my australian geckos with crickets and roaches and I have absolutly no problem with their eggs.

 

[Baoh]

I'm not a breeder, but I'm sorry to hear all the trouble you've been having!

I wanted to mention this might fall under the jurisdiction of the Food and Drug Administration--I know it sounds strange, but they're the ones who investigated the issue with melamine in cat and dog foods. It might be worth it to get some kind of statement together and pass it along to them, or at least give them a call. It couldn't hurt.

This does not fall under the jurisdiction of the FDA. Dog and cat food must be suitable for human consumption, as those not well off have taken to eating it during times of personal hardship. Feeder insects would not be covered by the same umbrella for obvious reasons.

 

[Starwild]

This does not fall under the jurisdiction of the FDA. Dog and cat food must be suitable for human consumption, as those not well off have taken to eating it during times of personal hardship. Feeder insects would not be covered by the same umbrella for obvious reasons.

Ah, I see. Learn something new every day. :main_thumbsup:

 

[SFgeckos]

I'm sorry to hear this =(

Oh no!! I'm sorry I didn't catch this thread earlier...Many times we only share our success stories, but keep our failures in the dark. I give alot of respect to everyone who had the courage and willingness to share their experiences for the better good of the leopard gecko community.

My season so far has been on par with all previous seasons. I don't have any experiences feeding mealworms to my leopard geckos, so I can't contribute much to this discussion.

However Marcia, I may have some information for you in terms of laboratory testing. I spoke to Dr. Vicki Joseph in the exotic/avian department for Idexx. There is a test "code 1433" which is a toxicity screening for organic substances. The sample is sent to their laboratory in Michigan. However, the only downside is that it is a necrospy test, meaning that organ tissue from the liver, kidneys etc are required. I know it is very difficult to "sacrifice" any living animal, but what if it was the only missing element or proof necessary to win a lawsuit against the feeder insect companies?

I would also definitely talk to the state Idexx lab (they have two labs in our area- one in sunnyvale and the other in sacramento) for additional options or special tests. Most vets have a blue binder with all the standard available tests, but if you call Idexx they can always do custom/special tests and quote prices. The test I mentioned above is fairly reasonable, but I was quoted my cost which would be 2x more for "retail" through any vet hospital.
Email me at [email protected] if you want to discuss testing or have any questions. I'm always busy, but I'll make time for old friends =)

See you at Petaluma!

Jon

 

[Geckoreo]

Marcia,
you are not the only one.
I too have had only 4 eggs hatch out of over 48 eggs. I did have a incubator accident for the first 11 but Im beginning to think that those first 11 did not die due to overheating, as the latter 40 eggs went through the same exact growth. My eggs will grow, but as I candle them I noticed some of them start off pink and towards the end of their term, they turn yellow. Out of the 3 eggs which have hatched, 2 are perfect, 1 has no front arms, and another one seems to have a stiff spine. I thought I was the only one with this problem, but I guess not. Are the temperatures where you are very volatile? I think this may have to do with the rapid change in temperatures over here.

 

[nwheat]

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear about everyone's problems! I sure missed alot while I was on vacation. My season has also been less than wonderful. Yesterday, while going through the incubator and babies that hatched while I was away, I found what I felt was an abnormally large number of failed clutches and two of my new hatchlings (unrelated) have only one eye. There were a few issues and quite a few infertile or failed cutches pre-vacation as well. I'm afraid I have too many complicating issues to blame the mealworms, though. I did change my incubation methods a bit this year (which seemed to be a good thing at the start of the season), and then I was gone for a couple of weeks.

 

[scottmckillips]

I have also been having the same issues with eggs going bad. I had just wrote it off because we move in with my parents after we sold our house last fall. We are in the process of building a new house and I just figured that the change in environment from last season was causing my problems. I also have had five 8-10 month old leo's get mbd. Again, was just figuring I had done something else to cause this. Good luck to everyone I hope things change soon.

Scott

 

[pastelball]

Well, I posted a few months back about how out of a breeding of a giant to super giant I had one egg hatch and it hatched early. Out of 10 eggs only this one hatched. I used the same male last year to 2 normal females with no problems and hatched 19 eggs out of 19. I feed mealworms also. I am now thinking that maybe I am having the same problem.

Also does anyone think this will have any long term effect on females for laying fertile eggs next year?

 

[boutiquegecko]

Wow, I'm just seeing this as I'm catching up from being back from vaca, and still need to read all the pages of this thread.
As it goes, we're not having the best season either. When I compare to last year, I have less than half for hatchlings this year. We lost quite a bit of eggs ( I think some due to my perlite mix up), but even after I corrected that I noticed a problem with the hatchlings. And some of my adults keeping wieght on.
For me I noticed a mealworm problem at the start of the year. They were dying off too quick, or not reproducing or thriving in general. Then the season started and I started having trouble with females ovulating, but not breeding/or breeding but not laying. Or infertile eggs.
Now that I've switched to crickets I see an improvement. I'll be feeding dubias too soon as I get enough, so will hopefully have some reports later on between the two feeders. The only mealies I've not noticed a problem with are the ones I've bred.

 

[DanTheFireman]

I also have had a terrible hatch rate this season. Somewhere around 50 - 60% succsess. That equals to well over 200-300 lost eggs. I however can not try to blame it on the mealies because I feed all of my adults and juvies superworms. I am not certain where my problem is but I can name the many things that it is not. I have not changed anything from my last season. I have had 3-4 deformities in hatchlings and 2 that have had failure to thrive. Out of 350 plus hatchlings that is a rather small number of problems.

Sorry so many others are having a crummy season as well.

I'm in the same boat as Jeremy. Our hatch rate has been about 20% with several deformities. We switched from crickets to supers last year. I feel it's something in the gutload, it's the same laying mash that we've used for years. We also tried one of the "fancy" gutloads which we've discontinued just in case (that one's green ... hint, hint).

 

[Gecko Ranch]

Just saw the thread here (the geckos and customers have been keeping me very busy!). As for me - I breed about 50+ species of geckos with 120+ leo breeders and about 300 geckos in total.

The only husbandry change from last year besides no mealworms right now was a complete switch to Calcium Plus by Allen Repashy, it has been about one year on the new formulation. My previous regimen for leos and non-Phelsuma geckos was 1:1 RepCal Ultrafine with D3 mixed with Herptivite and the old formulation of Calcium Plus. For Phelsuma it was 2:1 RepCal to Herptivite and no old formulation of Calcium Plus as it DID NOT WORK and MBD was prevalent. Then about last July I started using the new formulation of Calcium Plus- in Phelsuma I went from about 30% MBD in offspring to zero this season with about four dozen offspring so far (set a personal record for producing P. klemmeri); leos to no MBD from about 3% MBD. Just the occasional tail kink at the end of the tail which most folks attribute to inbreeding along the geckos' bloodlines (I don't do as policy). Their egg shells have been fine.

To note my Phelsuma were not fed mealworms. Occasionally I feed the larger Phelsuma superworms and they enjoy those very much.

My leos: switched to only supers about six years ago. I have since added mealworms as a sometimes food item and crickets as some get bored on occasion and that is a completely normal response. So, I fed some mealworms and that includes the part of this season. The breeders also get waxworms one-two feedings a month. This year I had some poor doers that seemed increased from last year, and a rash of micro-dudes, very small babies. I still have the occasional really huge hatchling, but even the normal sized hatchlings seem a little smaller than usual. There was a bit more than the normal amount of eggs not hatching than normal even taking into account some of my breeders are past their prime in production years.

The only thing that really alarmed me was the appearance of the "micro-dudes" in such larger numbers this year. I attribute this to the breeders not getting enough food (since corrected) and possibly a connection to the mealworms. That and the slightly increased rate of non-hatching eggs could be attributed to this mealworm phenomenon.

My leo offspring are raised on Repashy Insect Gutloaded (human grade quality, not the junk from China) and fresh green fed supers, crickets and occasional waxworm when they are big enough. My regimen before the mealworm shortage was to feed the young leos primarily mealworms as they gained weight for me the best that way. Before that my regimen was mostly crickets, try how I might I would not get them to gain as well as when they had mealworms as a primary food source.

I did check with a non-domestic vet I trust about the larvae (worms) not needing gutloading as that surprised me since I see them eat and poop so much of what I give them (greens, gutload), and their response was that the geckos benefit from the nutrients you gutload with so that is a plus for the geckos if the nutrients are good quality. Come to think of it that is just good old "food chain" logic.

Somehow I think everyone will be looking at the quality of everything they feed to their insect feeders and their geckos more closely from now on! Hope my info helps with the issues going on here.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I feed my australian geckos with crickets and roaches and I have absolutly no problem with their eggs.

Same here!

Geeze, this is discouraging...

 

[SteveGeckosEtc]

Hello everyone,

I have received several emails from people regarding this issue, so I thought I would share what has been going on here. After reading all the posts, I have a couple observations and comments. First of all, we are very sorry for all the problems people are having and I hope the situation is resolved. Fortunately, Deb and I are having a great season. We started the season feeding mealworms, and then had to switch to crickets when they shortage happened. Our transition was smooth for the geckos. The eggs kept coming, and the breeders stayed in good shape. Our biggest problem with the crickets is that the geckos need to be fed more often, so it has been a more stressful year than usual with general upkeep of the geckos, but we are managing. An interesting note is that usually we feed pinkies to our breeder leopards, and this year with the extra work feeding crickets I haven't fed out many pinkies, and the geckos are still doing well. As for deformities, I think our deformity rate has been lower on crickets, but I attribute that to crickets being a little better nutritionally than worms. The cause of the deformities can be anything from nutrient deficiency to eggs being rolled during incubation or inbreeding, just to name a few.

A few weeks ago I talked to the former manager of the largest mealworm producer at a reptile show. I was told that they are still working on the problem. At first they thought it was a problem with the bran, then thought it was a problem with the carrots they feed them, then thought it was a problem with the cactus they feed them. They have ruled those things out, and now think it is an inbreeding problem. I was told that a similar situation happened 10 or 12 years ago. They haven't brought in new breeding stock in quite a while. And to compound the problem, they kept selling mealworms after they were having problems hatching them and didn't keep enough to use as the next generation of breeders. So, it it very likely that all those stories about what happened were told by the mealworm producers because they were still trying to figure out what was going on. I don't think they were trying to intentionally lie to anyone or cover anything up. They have been very straightforward with me.

We chose to feed exclusively crickets once the shortage happened, so I haven't fed any superworms to the geckos during this shortage. It is my understanding that superworms are raised with the exact same bedding and food that mealworms are raised on. I am not suggesting that the mealworms this season were bad (we saw no evidence of that). All I'm saying is that if you think there was a problem with the mealworms, I would think that you would be having the same problem with the superworms. You are what you eat, so, in terms of any pesticides, mold, etc. superworms should be the same as mealworms.

 

[bkaufmann]

better luck next season

 

[Halley]

Any new on the test results yet?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I did not have the tests done. It would have cost me over $500 to have the labwork performed, and only 2 people from GeckoForums.net offered to help and sent me a total of $45 towards the charges, and refunded their donations (thank you!). Since I have not bee able to have any geckos for sale so far this season, the cost was too much for me to take on by myself.

 

[Baoh]

To add, I have acquired most (not all) of my animals from folks who preferred to feed mealworms to their animals and I have also fed mealworms earlier in the year.

The breakdown of my current "results" or lack thereof is as follows:

Male MS het RAPTOR has bred any of the mature females he has been placed with. He is my sole current breeder male as he is well suited to all of my Tremper-based projects.

Female MS het RAPTOR had a single clutch of two eggs by the above male. Both were colored a reddish pink and were somewhat irregularly shaped (tapered end). They started collapsing the other day, so I opened them up. The contents were seemingly undeveloped and had the consistency of ricotta cheese. Also, the shells were softer (leathery) than usual and had several layers. Almost as if there were three shells. Not thin membranes. Shells. This female may still lay another clutch or so this year. Her weight is superior and she has been gaining the entire time.

Female RAPTOR #1 had two clutches of eggs by the above male. Her first clutch was larger than her second. Her second clutch appears to be infertile, as candling only shows an slightly yellowish fluid tinge inside. One of the eggs from the first clutch may have a similar infertile status. Hard to tell. Luckily, the other egg from the first clutch is developing properly. At the incubation temperature I have been using, I am hoping it will hatch in a couple weeks or so. If I am extremely lucky, my next season will have a jumpstart to it. Anyway, this female has been slow to regain her weight, but I have been getting her to eat via the mouth/jaw-rubbing method. Assuming the one egg hatches, that's a 16.7% hatch rate this year. Quite poor.

The good side of this is that I wasn't expecting to get any eggs this year, as next year was planned to be my Year 1 for this group.

Do you folks know if females maturing at "off" times in the year, with adjustments to temperatures, etcetera, breed then? Or do they wait for the next season? If they will breed at off times, I'll have a second female RAPTOR possibly breeding as well as a female Enigma het RAPTOR.

Others which have not bred this year at all:

Male het Bell Sunglow/Hybino, male normal, female normal, and a male Tremper Blazing Blizzard. <- I will probably sell off these at a local show, as they don't factor into my current projects.

Snake-eye Bell female. <- I will try to test this to see if it is RADAR compatible later on this year or next year, depending upon her cooperation.

So far, bad year. Still some potential left, though.

 

[Baoh]

Marcia, how many healthy hatchlings have you actually been able to produce this year? If you don't mind disclosing that, I mean.