The WORST season in Golden Gate Geckos' history!

[Halley]

i have had no problems that are out of the ordinary. maybe 10 babies were born with defects. i didnt have the dieing in the eggs like people were talking about. there were a few females that didnt breed but it was a small number and i think they were later in the season. and with me moving last month. and well not putting males in with them might have had something to do with it. Im the last month or two i have stoped trying to breed. With the mealworm shortage and well the amount of geckos that are here right now i thought ok thats it i dont need to breed anymore.

So as far as my season went or is still going. it was a great one to say the least well over 1400 babies less then 1% defects less then 5 % infertile.

Did you feed mealworms before the shortage?

 

[SaSobek]

that is all i feed, toward the end of the shortage i used supers for like 2 weeks for the breeders. but now i can get mealworms again so that is what i will go back to. my supplyer actualy just sold me 100,000 mealies this weekend :main_thumbsup:

 

[godzillizard]

My seasons been off, also--I really hope it's just the wacky weather swings...stasis is VERY important--any significant changes in any pattern, and it's like trying to defuse a bomb while sitting on a jack hammer made of jello.
Plus, if all the mealworms come from a single source--how do they refresh the genetic of the beetles? are they importing fresh blood every few generations? or are they just inbreeding over and over again??? Is it possible it could be a case of "poisionous" genetic material from 'bad' mealworm genes? Could there be a sub lethal gene in mealworms that is/becomes a lethal when ingested by our leo friends? I've only been breeding leos for 3 years, but it's more than obvious to me that we need to come together to get to the bottom of this

Every time I get mealies--I roll them back and forth in tubs while I vaccum them--so they get as "clean" as possible. Never really understood why I do that, until now--fear of the 'bugs' on the bugs...

 

[Pro Geckos]

I’m just now seeing this thread and have finally read through the entire thing. I’m sorry to hear everyone is having a bad year. My story is basically the same. I have fed mealworms to the majority of my animals for a few years now. To date I’ve had 215 eggs laid. The babies that have hatched are doing excellent and thriving. None of them have deformities or have died *knock on wood*. My biggest problem this year has been infertile eggs. My fertility rate is around 60%. Several of my breeders have laid only infertile eggs but they have done excellent in the past. Last year I did change supplements and this might have something to do with it. Currently I’m using superworms, crickets and discoid roaches and will probably do so for a while.

 

[SleepyDee]

I'm particularly interested to know what's going on with people in Europe.

Aliza

came to this thread late last night so wasn't able to reply till this morning..... am sorry to hear how bad the seasons been for folks here

I'm a small hobbyist breeder in the UK (only bred three females this year) but haven't had any problems this season, no eggs or leo's lost/deformed and the girls all laying well.
I feed mine a varied diet of crix, hoppers and mealies (the hoppers and mealies I'm just starting to breed myself) and all live food is fed on a mix of fresh veg & fruit and good grade cereal (bran, oats etc) etc ~ I don't use animal/chicken feed or prepackaged livefood feed.

I sincerely hope things get better and an answer found for folks here soon

 

[Sandra]

I don't know about breeding, but no mealworm shortage here. And all the mealworms I've bought were lively and looking good.

I'm sorry to hear that most American and Canadian breeders are having hardships This breeding season looked so promising... Best of luck to you all with the rest of the season.

Oh, and if the mealworms turn out to be the problem I would definitely take that certain mealworm supplier to court. Just think about the financial and emotional losses this has caused...

 

[Gregg M]

Oh, and if the mealworms turn out to be the problem I would definitely take that certain mealworm supplier to court. Just think about the financial and emotional losses this has caused...

There would be no case if someone tried to take legal action. There would be no way to prove the worm supplier is at fault. Plus, none of the breeding adults are sick and/or dieing. How would a breeder prove its financial loss? From a bunch of infertile eggs and stilborns? There are many factors that can cause things like that. Then you add the fact that these are living creatures and not machines that produce a predictable amount of product.

Emotional losses??? Lets face it. Do you get attached to leopard gecko eggs??? We crack open chicken eggs without even batting an eye every day for breakfast or to bake a kick arse chocolate cake.

I understand it sucks when a deformed animal is born/hatched but these are issues that every breeder has faced or will face at some point. It also sucks to have eggs go bad, but again, its par for the course...

This is the view of the average Joe. In life, there are way more average Joes than reptile people. This is why a case like this will never hold water in court.

 

[Sandra]

There would be no case if someone tried to take legal action. There would be no way to prove the worm supplier is at fault.

If the mealworms get tested and pesticides are found in them, that would be something to start with. Note that those mealworms are produced for consumption (even if it's animal consumption). I don't think someone who is selling poisoned food should go unpunished.

Emotional losses??? Lets face it. Do you get attached to leopard gecko eggs???

No, but some people have reported their adults dying for no aparent reason. It would have helped that they had performed a necropsy on them, though, because right now there is no way to prove if it was due to food poisoning. And of course everything else that has happened is very discouraging too, not necessarily meaning that you get attached to the eggs... Yeah, things like these happen to any breeder but not in such a ratio and to so many breeders at the same time.

I'm not saying that people should go to court alleguing financial and emotional loss, that obviously is there but it's difficult to prove... But rather that it should be a motivation to take this case to court.

 

[KelliH]

i have had no problems that are out of the ordinary. maybe 10 babies were born with defects. i didnt have the dieing in the eggs like people were talking about. there were a few females that didnt breed but it was a small number and i think they were later in the season. and with me moving last month. and well not putting males in with them might have had something to do with it. Im the last month or two i have stoped trying to breed. With the mealworm shortage and well the amount of geckos that are here right now i thought ok thats it i dont need to breed anymore.

So as far as my season went or is still going. it was a great one to say the least well over 1400 babies less then 1% defects less then 5 % infertile.

I think the common theme with many of us that had problems was that our mealworms came from the same supplier, or from a company that was supplied by that main supplier. My guess would be that your mealies come from somewhere else.

 

[KelliH]

There would be no case if someone tried to take legal action. There would be no way to prove the worm supplier is at fault. Plus, none of the breeding adults are sick and/or dieing. How would a breeder prove its financial loss? From a bunch of infertile eggs and stilborns? There are many factors that can cause things like that. Then you add the fact that these are living creatures and not machines that produce a predictable amount of product.

Emotional losses??? Lets face it. Do you get attached to leopard gecko eggs??? We crack open chicken eggs without even batting an eye every day for breakfast or to bake a kick arse chocolate cake.

I understand it sucks when a deformed animal is born/hatched but these are issues that every breeder has faced or will face at some point. It also sucks to have eggs go bad, but again, its par for the course...

This is the view of the average Joe. In life, there are way more average Joes than reptile people. This is why a case like this will never hold water in court.

If the mealworm supplier knew that their bugs could potentially harm the animals that were eating them, I would think they very well could be sued. I bet you the mealworm companies are thinking about suing the place that supplied them with the feed/bedding too.

If my mealworm supplier knew that the bugs they were selling me were exposed to pesticides that could potentially harm my animals, I am going to be livid, to put it mildly.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Like I stated a few times, it would be almost impossible to even prove without the cooperation of everyone that is having these problems. No one would have any true legal recourse unless we would prove there was negligence and/or deliberate malice on the part of the feeder or the bedding suppliers.

I only suggested finding an attorney to send a demand letter that requires them to tell us what exactly caused the problem with the mealworms. If we had a straight answer from the mealworm company, then we would know why we might be having these issues with our geckos!

Also, I got a quote from IDEXX labs to perform the testing on the worms and/or bedding:

Toxicity screen: $314
Pesticide: $248
Fungus in the beding: $61

 

[godzillizard]

if you can hormonally treat the so-called "giant" mealworms to not pupate--why not hormonally treat regular mealworms so that your customers have to keep coming back? Plus, the few "giant" mealworms that pupate are sterile in beetle form :main_huh:

I still think fecundity is at least part of the "issues". Whether it was caused by inbreeding (genetic depression), chemicals, fungal spores or Gandalf I need to know, until then, I'm sticking to the supers

 

[godzillizard]

Just got off the phone with a LARGE bug dealer who told me what she knew!!! If I could say her name, you'd continue reading this for sure--she said that the problem is compound--the mealies are simply turning to mush after a few weeks of normal growth (I keep visualizing those baby vampires in "Van Helsing" ) She thinks it's partly because of inbreeding depression (bad/stale genetics), but she especially emphasized that the hormones used to make the insects food plants pest-resistant, seem to be a big part of the problem. I thought she was saying something about genetically engineered foods, but she corrected me, saying it was the hormones sprayed on food crops to keep pests at bay. It was very refreshing to get an honest "I don't know, but this is what we believe is causing the issues". Sounds like they've known for a while there's issues, but since they didn't/don't yet fully understand it, they didn't want to shoot themselves in the foot...I just knew such a complex situation would have numerous contributing factors. Anyone imorting fresh blood Darkling beetles, and feeding them chemical/hormone free organic foods?

 

[tsavage]

ya thats what i do except the importing part...........but this shortage took out my population,people found my site and i sold about 5 mill. in 20 hours....now i have to rebuild my colonies

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

What a mess. I have a strong hunch it is only the 'tip of the iceberg'....

 

[Jodi L Aherns]

Sorry to hear all the bad news.It might not be the mealworms but the sudden change of diet.Back in the day when i was a gecko breeder i feed 100% crickets then switched to mealworms and for the next 7 months i saw the same things you folks are seeing.Just one old gecko breeders thoughts.I wish all of you the best of luck.

 

[Halley]

Well I would let the whole thing get figured out by the bug companies first. I also think taking the bug companies to court is ridiculous. Why even worry about it? At this point nothing can be changed. It might not even be the mealworms; we might all just be jumping to conclusions.

I will say I’m very interested in seeing the results from the mealworms that Marcia is sending in, and maybe somebody should have the blood of their geckos tested to see if their geckos have the same chemicals in their blood, that the mealworms have in them. Then those chemicals would have to be checked to see if they do in fact cause the problems that we are all having. Such as low egg fertility, death, deformities, etc.

If all those things lined up, I think I would believe that it is the mealworms, but until then (although I’m leaning towards the mealworms theory myself as well) I think it is best not to jump into things, when in fact there are no evidence.

Just my thoughts

 

[supremegecko]

Another breeder chimes in-
My hatch rates have been terrible this year- around 50% or so.
Of the 50% unhatched, I would say about 5 went full term only to die just before hatching.
No babies have die right out of the egg nor have I seen any deformities.
I currently have about 75 babies growing up.

About a year ago, I did switch supplements though. As the hatch rates dropped to about 20%, I switched back to the supplements I had used the past few season and the rates went up quite a bit.

At the beginning of the year, feedings consisted of about 90% mealworms as crickets are the staple food.

Again, I attributed the poor hatch rates to the supplements used early in the year but now, I wonder!

Again, thank you all for your honesty. This is the reason I enjoy the hobby, especially during a trying time like some of us are going through.

 

[supremegecko]

[........I changed this year to Laying hen crumbles because on the back of the Chick feed it had a warning that read:
DO NOT FEED TO LAYING HENS.....After reading the contents of both bags I found two chemicals in the Chick feed that was not a part of the Layer Hen Crumbles............Never went any farther .........[/COLOR]

If you have a chance to check this out let us know. I use the chick feed for mealworms and for my crickets. If the folks that depend on crickets are having problems as is the mealworm people, could this be one of the connections?

BTW- I am sorry as well to hear of everyone's issues.

 

[Gecko]

Anyway, my theory is that it is some bacteria or virus similiar to what happened to the cricket virus in Europe. In my opinion it's the most likely explaination to explain away the pattern of widespread loss of mealworms. Cultureing any animal for mass markets typically means taking risks with regards to disease.

Did the suppllier mean pheromones (spelling?) and not hormones?