this is one reason why you shouldnt

[robin]

treat leopard gecko wiki as the leopard gecko bible

http://www.leopardgeckowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Creamsicle

it's going to look identical to other super snow morphs. it is not a new morph it is a project. wtf a morph.


a new morph or significant line sure. something that has been done over and over again for years. no
just add it as a subsection to supersnows wanna be new morphs.

it's a shame that just anyone can contribute to that site.

 

[Jordan]

treat leopard gecko wiki as the leopard hecko bible

http://www.leopardgeckowiki.com/index.php?title=Super_Creamsicle

it's going to look identical to other super snow morphs. it is not a new morph it is a project. wtf a morph.


a new morph or significant line sure. something that has been done over and over again for years. no
just add it as a subsection to supersnows wanna be new morphs.

it's a shame that just anyone can contribute to that site.

hey man that was me, i was recommended by quite a few breeders in the UK to put that up just as i was working on it. I said mildly the same as you, but a lot of people here in the UK have thought it needs a mention as a morph.
TBH there's a lot worse on there, Like all the things that are just combinations, like Mack Snow enigma, etc. Theyre not morphs as such, just two morphs mixed together, why does that need a description and a page,, its obviousl what it is.
A good thing about wiki, is if you disagree then you can take stuff off... I would not be offended, i half agree with you.

 

[T-ReXx]

I gotta agree with Robin on this one. until the line has been proven out it can't be labeled as a new morph and shouldn't be listed as such. Currently that is just a line still at testing level.

 

[Jordan]

I gotta agree with Robin on this one. until the line has been proven out it can't be labeled as a new morph and shouldn't be listed as such. Currently that is just a line still at testing level.

dude its not even that, its been done plenty of times... and soon as i told people that its been done plenty of times, i was recommended that it should be mentioned on there and i should post pics of mine when im done. Its pathetic i know, but i followed the crowd.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Leopard gecko wiki is good and bad. It displays some morphs which will help people unaware of the morphs (genetics) to be able to help identify their geckos and some of the genetics behind it. Bad because the only validity to anything mentioned on there is up to the discretion of Kyle. He is a good guy but he can't go through every morph and determine who created it and when...so he goes off of what hes told. Thats why its good for basic understanding of genetics and pictures of morphs, but bad for ensuring all respect goes to those who deserve it.

As far as the Super Creams are concerned...I have created over 20 this year and visually they are not much, if any different from most all other SS. Genetically they are different but as far as labeling them as something different (Super Creams) that in my opinion is not needed. Unless we are able to make them distinctly different (not random differences but something we can reproduce) then they should just be labeled as SS from hypo lines or something to that nature so that people know the genetics behind it.

 

[gixxer3420]

Its not good to be a follower.

 

[Jordan]

Leopard gecko wiki is good and bad. It displays some morphs which will help people unaware of the morphs (genetics) to be able to help identify their geckos and some of the genetics behind it. Bad because the only validity to anything mentioned on there is up to the discretion of Kyle. He is a good guy but he can't go through every morph and determine who created it and when...so he goes off of what hes told. Thats why its good for basic understanding of genetics and pictures of morphs, but bad for ensuring all respect goes to those who deserve it.

As far as the Super Creams are concerned...I have created over 20 this year and visually they are not much, if any different from most all other SS. Genetically they are different but as far as labeling them as something different (Super Creams) that in my opinion is not needed. Unless we are able to make them distinctly different (not random differences but something we can reproduce) then they should just be labeled as SS from hypo lines or something to that nature so that people know the genetics behind it.

Agreed. And also if were on about putting things up that are no different from other things...
then what about 'Electric' ... not a new morph? just good tangerines.
JBR glow...
Mack Snow Blizzard... looks like a blizzard...
Super Snow blizzard.
Tangerine tornado... not a different morph, just a different line.

Just so we're clear, im happy to admit i put up super creams a while back, BUT at the same time i agree with you guys. Its becoming cluttered with anything.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Well I have talked to you about Super Creams before so I know were good there. As far as the others they do belong up there.

Mack Snow Blizzard - It is genetically different and they do look different from blizzards (not all of them...but most). When adding a new gene it is a new morph.

Super Snow Blizzards look nothing like a Mack Blizzard or a regular Blizzard...thus the new morph name. Going off of genetics again...its a new gene (super form) it is genetically different from them as well.

I will not comment on the whole JBR Glow issue....

As far as Electrics and Tornado's go, they are just tangerines...yes. However, they have been linebred to the point where they continually produce offspring which look nothing like any other tangerine line out there. Thus the Poly-genetic differences make it a new morph. This can be argued by many, but I believe these poly-genetic morphs should have their own name if it is something which is obvious genetics and not just one unique looking gecko. Im sure everyone has hatched something that was AMAZING but when bred it was just a random thing...not inheritable genetics.

I think we need to stop coming up with all these elaborate names for these geckos and just call them by what they are. aka Black Hole - Mack Eclipse Enigma.

Everyone wants their own line or their own named morph, but reality is that even if you line breed the crap out of something and it is unique...doesn't mean the gecko community will adopt the name and use it.

 

[Jordan]

Well I have talked to you about Super Creams before so I know were good there. As far as the others they do belong up there.

Mack Snow Blizzard - It is genetically different and they do look different from blizzards (not all of them...but most). When adding a new gene it is a new morph.

Super Snow Blizzards look nothing like a Mack Blizzard or a regular Blizzard...thus the new morph name. Going off of genetics again...its a new gene (super form) it is genetically different from them as well.

I will not comment on the whole JBR Glow issue....

As far as Electrics and Tornado's go, they are just tangerines...yes. However, they have been linebred to the point where they continually produce offspring which look nothing like any other tangerine line out there. Thus the Poly-genetic differences make it a new morph. This can be argued by many, but I believe these poly-genetic morphs should have their own name if it is something which is obvious genetics and not just one unique looking gecko. Im sure everyone has hatched something that was AMAZING but when bred it was just a random thing...not inheritable genetics.

I think we need to stop coming up with all these elaborate names for these geckos and just call them by what they are. aka Black Hole - Mack Eclipse Enigma.

Everyone wants their own line or their own named morph, but reality is that even if you line breed the crap out of something and it is unique...doesn't mean the gecko community will adopt the name and use it.

Dang... thats all perfect sense... you know you should just write the wiki lol.

But surely like you mentioned with the super blizzards, they are super forms and 2 things mixed together... then surely super snow and creamsicle is two things mixed together...

 

[robin]

Dang... thats all perfect sense... you know you should just write the wiki lol.

But surely like you mentioned with the super blizzards, they are super forms and 2 things mixed together... then surely super snow and creamsicle is two things mixed together...

prove it, them make it as fact :main_rolleyes:

 

[robin]

next year if i produce tangerine eclipses am i going to call them a new morph. no. why? well one they have already been produced by a few people but number two all they are is a mixture of two morphs. you can look at it two ways adding tang color to an eclipse or adding the eclipse gene to tangs but it's not a new morph just a cool combo

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

But surely like you mentioned with the super blizzards, they are super forms and 2 things mixed together... then surely super snow and creamsicle is two things mixed together...

Yes however your forgetting one important aspect. A Super Snow Blizzards LOOKS different than any other blizzard combo. A Super Cream doesn't. I have had higher white SS come from my Dreamsickle projects than from my Cream projects. There is nothing distinctively different about them...so why rename them? The whole reason I don't think (and don't) that a Super Cream should be labeled or marketed as Super Cream is because they have no visual distinctions to properly identify them. I label them as SS from hypo lines or SS from "x" Creamsicle project. All it takes is for me to sell a Super Cream to someone who breeds it to a mack snow. Then would those babies (the SS's) be Super Creams??? You can't tell the hypo influence on them...thus making them impossible to effectively and accurately label them. If you can produce Super Creams which are very distinct and can pass this look to their babies then by all means I will support that. However, this will take a few seasons of creating and proving this out before there is any validity to them. No one is saying don't try to do it...we are just saying to not create/claim to create a new morph within 1 year of working with a morph that has been worked with for a very long time. For example...I am trying to get my Creamsicles to have full body color but have a nice high white collar. Its not a new morph just a line bred trait which i am trying to hone in on so my creams can be even more distinct from everyone else.

Not the best picture but an example of what Im talking about (in essence a colorful/tangerine Hypo Mack Snow (creamsicle) with a way of distinguishing my line from others out there).

Just work with the morph for a few years before you want to try to create/name something that is already out there.

 

[robin]

travis and if you took two of those together and made a super snow with them, wouldnt it be black and white just like all other snows?

also right there you have just showed us basically a super hypo tangerine snow. correct?

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Yup. Here is a Super Cream hatch-ling
unique...yes.

but here is another from the exact same pairing

They both turned into normal looking SS. There is no consistency or anything in which these can be identified as a Super Cream.

Yes that first pic was nothing more than a super hypo tangerine snow.

 

[robin]

very good examples travis thanks

 

[Jordan]

Look guys... im sorry. I think your missing my most important point that ive said a few times. I agree with you....

but at the same time, i sort of see where all the people that thought it would be a great idea to put some info up on this as a 'morph' are coming from. You see it was thought by af ew local breeders and some other UK ones, that it is two morphs mixed together... So its creating a new morph. Hell they made a name for Blizzard and murphy patternless. So i can see why some people would think this would need a mention.

HOWEVER, i regret 'giving it a mention' until there is something special about it, THAT i completely agree with.

 

[Jordan]

There is no consistency or anything in which these can be identified as a Super Cream.
.

Quite a few morphs have a hell of a lot of variation though...?
A lot of geckos are a 'X morph' but dont look like another gecko thats 'X morph'

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

I by no means am trying to discourage you from working on that project because I love Creamsicles and think that if you can create something truly unique then that would be awesome. All that I am trying to say is that there should be no geckos being sold a Super Creams until there is a guaranteed way to know it is one...other than the breeders word. I love creams and would hate for them to get a bad wrap because of poor business (I am not talking about you...we have talked before and I know you have creams...I am talking about people who dont but will claim it to try to get an extra penny). Bottom line is Wiki is not a fool proof genetic/morph guide and Super Creams have been in existence for a long time but are a dead end because it erases all your hard work invested into the creams.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Quite a few morphs have a hell of a lot of variation though...?
A lot of geckos are a 'X morph' but dont look like another gecko thats 'X morph'

Are you talking about Poly-genetic traits or recessive, co-dom, etc.? I know a Dreamsickle may look completely different than another...but as a whole you can distinguish a Dreamsickle from a Mack Snow Tremper or so on. They have distinguishable features which tell you what that gecko is. Super Creams do not. Its like a SS het for Radar...how do you know it is other than the breeders word. It will look like a SS but you cant prove the true genetics behind it unless you breed it. Trust me Jordan I am no trying to argue it is not a morph..it is. BUT, until we can refine it to be distinguishable...it should not be marketed as one.

 

[Jordan]

Look im sorry if it sounds like im arguing, i wish this was more in person so you could hear the tone of my voice. I completely understand what youre saying and it makes perfect sense and hell i agree with it alot.
I just felt that i needed to look at both sides, as in my head i had a few points for both sides of the discussion.
Let me just emphasize i dont want it to sound like im arguing. Because it sounds like your both getting frustrated with me cuz im arguing lol.
Im not its just you know its important to look at both sides. I think when this can be made disinguishable and recognisable, and people can go 'oh look at that looks like an awesome super cream' then it should be mentioned as a new morph.

Thanks guys, your points are great.