Two newly adopted geckos *very sad pics*

[lillith]

HJ thanks for the info!

I'm gonna keep throwing my two cents in, but: pseudogout is the exact same thing, except they aren't uric acid crystals, they're calcium crystals. Treatment is similar.

I'm guessing dimes to dollars that this is real gout, not pseudogout. But on the off chance it's from too much calcium, it might be good to know about...for other people.

 

[liljenn]

Wow, that is so sad! you are really awesome to rescue and take care of them!

I have read (somewhere in one of my books?) that Geckos can get gout from feeding them too many pinkies -- making sense that it is from too much protein and calcium. I don't know of any treatments though. The eyes on the male certainly look better than they did!

Keep us posted!

 

[lady.gekko]

Wow, that's absolutely horrifying! Good luck to you and I wish those geckos a healthy recovery!

 

[Bellalee]

Jess your doing a good thing.. I wish only the best for you and them. Poor things.

 

[ValMarley08]

bless ur heart for taking these two in. good luck with them!

 

[Kohana]

You're such a kindhearted person for taking these 2 poor creatures in, I'm sure they appreciate everything you're doing for them. Best of luck!

 

[fallen_angel]

Thanks for all of the info, comments, and good wishes everyone!! :heart:

I'll be leaving for the vet in about an hour. I expect roughly a $100 vet bill but we'll see. I wonder with her being so bad if she can ever really recover, but hopefully things will turn out okay for her.

For the male, I have ordered Terramycin ointment too. I still need to try to get him to eat, he's very fussy.

More updates after the vet visit..

 

[fallen_angel]

Okay so she does definitely have a severe case of gout. Most geckos with advanced gout like hers do not live for more than a few months

I got her some pain meds and will hopefully be able to pick up the allipurinol from the pharmacy later today. The allopurinol will help in keeping the gout from getting worse, but she will never look any different. He didn't recommend putting her in surgery to remove the abcesses because that could potentially put her in more pain than she should be and it wouldn't really help the problem. I'll give her treatment and hope that she will live and not add to the statistic. Maybe then I'll consider surgery, because I would like if all of the crap could be removed. She's so tiny, not even 30 grams. Hopefully things will turn out okay for her.

He recommended pretty much what I am already doing, giving them both soaks often and making sure they get Vitamin A. Apparently Herptivite uses beta-carotene instead of Vitamin A, so I need to go buy some Reptivite.

 

[acpart]

As I understand it, herptivite contains vitamin A made from beta carotene rather than from other substances and that is supposed to be more easily absorbed (or something) by geckos.

Aliza

 

[fallen_angel]

Yeah this doctor said that it was better to give them the Vitamin A and not the beta-carotene.

I am very sad that the female might not even survive anyway.. I'm considering whether or not I should euthanize her to end her suffering instead of making her live a few more months. I am not sure what to do.

 

[Tony C]

As I understand it, herptivite contains vitamin A made from beta carotene rather than from other substances and that is supposed to be more easily absorbed (or something) by geckos.

Aliza

Beta carotene is used because it can be fed in essentially unlimited amounts without the risk of hypervitaminosis A because it is converted to vitamin A only in the amount needed, at least in theory. Recent research has shown that beta carotene is of limited or no value to many reptile species, and the risk of toxicity from preformed vitamin A has been severely overblown.

 

[Tony C]

There is a great thread on DendroBoard about Repashy ICB and vitamin A, I am quoting Allen's first post here, but the whole thread is worth a read.

Hello Everyone,

Someone on my forums informed me of this thread. It is my first time to this board, but from the look of the level of the conversation here, it seems to be a pretty educated group. I have worked quite hard developing the ICB product, and been in the herp field long enough to remember when we were all using primarily bird supplements.... and things like osteo-form... many of the first herp specific supplements, where actually these products being relabeled for herp use.

I believe that the single worst thing to ever happen to the reptile supplementation was what some of us remember as the "Vitamin A" scare from the early 90's. This was an era when herp supplementation was still in it's infancy, and so was herp medicine, nutrition, and anyone who had a little success, knew how to use the new thing called 'The Internet" and a little time on there hands, could influence the masses.

This is exactly what happened when one individual blamed Vitamin A toxicity for some Chameleon problems and proclaimed their epiphany to the world.
A huge scare went through the hobby, and almost overnight, Vitamin A became taboo, and more associated with poison than a Vitamin... In response to this, a certain vitamin manufacturer created a supplement with Beta Carotene as the only "source" of Vitamin A.

It has been proven by much follow up by such organizations as the ARAV, that Vitamin A was not the cause for the original scare, and it was also noticed that there have been nearly zero documented cases of Vitamin A toxicity in reptiles in modern times. (per communication with Dr. Scot Stahl, DVM)

As most of you know here, there is a huge difference between Vitamin A, and Carotenoids. And as someone mentioned in this thread, the use of the term Retinol is most applicable in the description of Vitamin A in its preformed state.

Beta Carotene CAN be converted to Retinol in the body by some animals, but not all, the classic example I use for comparison is true carnivores such as Cats. Because Retinol ONLY comes from animal sources, Cats have completely lost the ability to convert plant carotenoids into retinol. They don't eat plants, so over time, they just lost this ability because they were not eating plant matter. Instead, they assimilate retinol from the animals they consume. This is the single reason that it is impossible to feed Cats on a true vegan diet. Cat's can not live at all without Retinol in their diet, and id doesn't take long for deficiency to occur if fed a diet without Retinol.

Herbivores are at the other end of the scale, and they must produce Retinol from Carotenoids to survive. True herbivores CAN do just fine on a retinol free diet if given enough caroteniods. (which is not easy to do with most commercial diets, or a veggie diet that is not rich in these nutrients. Because herbivores convert carotenoids to retinol, they still have the ability to process dietary retinol, and it is a part of all commercial herbivore diets and supplements I have found outside the herp world. Carotenoids are some of the most unstable nutrients, and due to oxidation, it is difficult to formulate anything but a fresh diet and depend on their availability as precursors to retinol. There are many more benefits that carotenoids contribute, such as pigmentation..... and many other benefits that are just beginning to be studied.. The beta carotene that is used in quality supplements is a micro-encapsulated product that surrounds the carotenoids in a fat soluble shield that acts as a barrier to oxidation.

So where does that leave us when it comes to omnivores? They do seem to have the ability to convert carotenoids to Retinol, but not enough work has been done to compare the efficiency to that of herbivores...... And Insectivores, specifically reptiles..... this is one of the most understudied topics there is..... There is no financial gain to study them like there is in something like a chicken that is a huge agricultural treasure.

Veterinary feedback, as well as the observations of open minded breeders and keepers, is currently questioning the ability and efficiency of true insectivores to convert carotenoids to Retinol. The cases of documented Vitamin A deficiency in insectivorous reptiles are quite common, near the level of Vitamin D deficiency cases. And with there being no downside to including Retinol in a diet or supplement, there is absolutely no reason to try and feed an insectivore a Retinol free diet. There might be some ability to convert carotenoids, but with the documented cases of Retinol toxicity at near zero, why would you eliminate it?

I believe the best approach is to include moderate levels of both retinol and carotenoids. Caroteniods ARE important, but for many reasons other than their ability to be converted to Retinol. Retinol is SAFE as a supplement, and toxicity is more a fear than a reality unless someone is using pure retinol as a supplement in high amounts.

Wow, I just logged in to say hello, and wrote a freaking novel...... anyways, I welcome any feedback or comments, and hope some of my ramblings have made sense to you readers.

Cheers, Allen Repashy

BTW, I am not writing this just to promote my stuff, I am writing it because I do believe that everyone should use a supplement that uses includes Retinol. I don't care if it is my product or not, but do yourself a favor, and if you have trouble with spindly leg, tadpoles that just don't get past a certain size, I believe a lot of these problems can be connected to retinol deficiency. Just don't be afraid of retinol, even in what many herpers consider high amounts..... ALL of these conceptions are based on folklore and misinformation. Listen to your animals, not your critics!

 

[twmattox]

Okay, sorry to pull up an old thread...but what happened to the female? My son's male has gout and we are not sure how to proceed with him (euthanize or try to treat for the few months he may or may not have).

 

[Quantumhigh]

bless you and those Leos. Your a good guy for taking them in! Iam sure those leos are so happy your caring for them. Hope the female got better let us know what happened to her!

 

[Dog Shrink]

i would not put an oil on the eye. i do not know how eyes are in reptiles but the cornea and lens of humans eyes have barely any blood flow to them, they need air flow to heal. that is why in corneal transplants and in lens replacements no anti-rejection medications are needed. oil will cover the eye and not allow it to breath well. something water soluble would be your best bet. even when using ointments the ointment needs to be cleaned off. the eyes needs air but also moisture, so it doesn't crust up again.

It looks like severly ulcerated corneas. could terramycin ointment help at all? It's what we use in our rabbits when they have eye infections. Or a drop of PenG in each eye just in case ther eis secondary infection? Also with the gout baby is there any benefit from theraputic soaks in warm baths to help break up teh crystals and provide some relief from the joint discomfort? I don't imagine you can use ebsom salts on leos, but is there a similar theraputic additive you could use in the soak? Something homepathic maybe?

Sending some seriously good vibes your way for success with these little ones. Wish I could be more help.

Edit... ok maybe I should read threads all the way thru before I comment, I just saw how old this thread was. Sorry. Does it have a happy ending???

 

[Jordan]

Edit... ok maybe I shoudl read threads all the way thru before I comment, I just saw how old this thread was. Sorry. Does it have a happy ending???

Lol. that made me laugh. in a good way though, im not making fun of you.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Lol. that made me laugh. in a good way though, im not making fun of you.

Suuuure ya aren't...

 

[fallen_angel]

Just noticed this thread had some more recent comments, I hadn't written any updates since we were in the process of moving to a different state shortly after all of this initially happened.

Unfortunately both geckos ended up having to be (humanely) put down. The female was only expected to live for another month or so with medication and so we decided it would be best to end her suffering rather than keep her alive with no beneficial results.

The male received terramycin ointment which did not help his condition, he was completely blind and his eyes needed to be wiped clean daily to prevent them from crusting themselves shut. However, the biggest problem was that he required to be hand fed but refused to eat all food (we attempted to hand feed him for months). We felt it was also best for him to be put down since he was only losing more and more weight and his quality of life was definitely decreasing.

Unfortunately in the case for these two, it was already too late and they will be greatly missed.

 

[fallen_angel]

On another note, I am really not sure why this thread is in the "show off your leos" section but have requested that it be moved to health and medications just in case anyone is wondering.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Aw sad update but prob. the most humane ending you could have given them. At least they knew love and care for a short while during their stay with you.