What wattage ceramic heat emitter should i buy?

[Cesar_Da_KIng]

I never said they weren't your opinions. You shared yours, and I shared mine. We can do that. It was someone else who took issue with it, not me or you.

Absolutly correct

Yes, because they're crepuscular. That's what they're supposed to do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't provide them with light. If anything, that's evidence to suggest we should, since it keeps their natural day/night cycle. Altering their natural behaviours just to amuse ourselves doesn't sound like a good idea.

Isnt us putting them in cages to begin with amusing ourselves

We aren't all after a leo we see all the time. I'd rather my leo act naturally than act in such a way that I get to see her more often because it would amuse me.

In my opinion, what makes my leos feel more comfortable makes me happyer, and a nice dark enclosure (with a wee bit a light coming through the blinds being all they need for a day/night cycle) seems to make them happiest so i go with that. Its not really to amuse me, its just a nice perck for both of us

Not that I don't see her plenty though with her light. You said that it would make the gecko "always" stay in its hide, but you're now saying, even when you tested it, they did come out - less often, of course, as would be expected because it is their natural behaviour.

I may have said "always" but its not really what i ment, i have ADHD so somtimes i miss a word hear and there and cant always hold a train of thought, but i do appologise and like another user said, what we do to them to begin with is not really natural either, so why should we expect them to do all the stuff they would in the wild, i would expect them to do the opposite actually in the wild we would run around like wild men with spears and eat raw meat and dirty water if you want to give him this "naturalniss" you talk about, feed him about four crickets a week (give or take, and mayde a few bettles and a spider, no waxes or meal worms), make the temp drop to around forty at night and then bump it up to a toasty 110 during the day, now thats what i call natural

I'm sorry, but in the words of some random person, that's "hearsay" and inadmissible in this court.

Well he sent me a copy of the notes he took and some photos and records of the leos weights every three days, so you might could call that proof, it passes in the science world and its pear reviewed.

So, in the wild, they live in these "gated communities"?

Nope, in a about a three foot daiameter circle (give or take) all by their lonesome, with the exception of when they take a nice nerve racking journey to find a mate

I didn't say they roam massive areas, but they have much larger areas available. If they manage to stay in small areas and still find their food, even with such huge areas available, how would it be an issue in captivity? Going by that observation, you could provide them with an entire room and they would only stay in that same size area and would survive. You're kind of defeating your own argument by bringing in your uncle's observations.

And you prove an excellnt point here, you might make a good scientist, yourself one day and im not saying they couldnt by any means, but seeing as we have domesticated them, from my observations, they now suck at finding their own food, same as us now that we have civilized ourselves, with the exception of a few, we have to go to a store for our food, same with leos, they are no longer good at hunting and finding their own food because we made it easy for them and they can simply wait for us to put it in a bowl for them, so now unless we

Use tongs or a dish for worms, and crickets should be dropped close to Leo and monitored (removed after 15 min)

they have a real ruff time hunting and searching for it in a huge cage where the crickets can hide and they have to actually search and smell for them.so going by what your saying about the going all natural thing and not doing it to amuse ourselves, your doing it all wrong too, and defeating your own argument also. im just saying from my observations, they seem less stressed in smaller enclosures.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Isnt us putting them in cages to begin with amusing ourselves

Yes, which is why some of us strive to provide as natural conditions as are reasonably possible.

In my opinion, what makes my leos feel more comfortable makes me happyer, and a nice dark enclosure (with a wee bit a light coming through the blinds being all they need for a day/night cycle) seems to make them happiest so i go with that. Its not really to amuse me, its just a nice perck for both of us

Why does them being out automatically = "happiness" [sic]? Them being out is due to the lack of light tricking their bodies into believing it is a time when they are supposed to be out. That doesn't mean they are "happy" about it.

I may have said "always" but its not really what i ment, i have ADHD so somtimes i miss a word hear and there and cant always hold a train of thought, but i do appologise and like another user said, what we do to them to begin with is not really natural either, so why should we expect them to do all the stuff they would in the wild, i would expect them to do the opposite actually in the wild we would run around like wild men with spears and eat raw meat and dirty water if you want to give him this "naturalniss" you talk about, feed him about four crickets a week (give or take, and mayde a few bettles and a spider, no waxes or meal worms), make the temp drop to around forty at night and then bump it up to a toasty 110 during the day, now thats what i call natural

You're presenting a false dichotomy by saying I either have to embrace no lights or providing identical conditions to their natural habitat. I never said that I want to completely, 100% replicate their natural conditions because it's simply not realistic - but I'd like to do so within my means. I was responding only to your assertion that light isn't natural for them.

Nope, in a about a three foot daiameter circle (give or take) all by their lonesome, with the exception of when they take a nice nerve racking journey to find a mate

Then that contradicts what you stated regarding the "test" of the large enclosure your friend performed.

And you prove an excellnt point here, you might make a good scientist, yourself one day and im not saying they couldnt by any means, but seeing as we have domesticated them, from my observations, they now suck at finding their own food, same as us now that we have civilized ourselves, with the exception of a few, we have to go to a store for our food, same with leos, they are no longer good at hunting and finding their own food because we made it easy for them and they can simply wait for us to put it in a bowl for them, so now unless we they have a real ruff time hunting and searching for it in a huge cage where the crickets can hide and they have to actually search and smell for them.so going by what your saying about the going all natural thing and not doing it to amuse ourselves, your doing it all wrong too, and defeating your own argument also. im just saying from my observations, they seem less stressed in smaller enclosures.

I'm sorry, but there is 0 evidence to suggest they can't find their own food in 67 gallon enclosures because they are "domesticated." If they truly lost that ability, your friend's geckos would have died because, even in a group, that ability would have been gone, and several of them together would not have resulted in it manifesting itself if it had been truly erased.

Furthermore, people aren't incapable of finding their own food. They don't possess the knowledge that our ancestors did regarding living in the wild, but put a person out in the wild with some sort of food source and they will manage because instinct has not been erased in humans any more than it has been in dogs, cats, horses, or geckos.

~Maggot

 

[Cesar_Da_KIng]

Yes, which is why some of us strive to provide as natural conditions as are reasonably possible.

And there is absolutly nothing wrong with that, i just dont think it nessary in some instences, but by all means, if that is what you want to do then do it, i encourage it and i think its great you have the want to do that

Why does them being out automatically = "happiness" [sic]? Them being out is due to the lack of light tricking their bodies into believing it is a time when they are supposed to be out. That doesn't mean they are "happy" about it.

Never said it did and neither did i say i give them no light. There is light in the room, coming from other cages and a little from in between the curtains on the window, and its plenty enough for them to know its day. they come out because they feel comfortable and secure, and they know the area theyre in from top to bottom and they feel perfectly safe. And being as animals dont feel emotions i would say feeling secure and taking a nice nap is as close as they get to happy, ask anyone who keeps their leos in a nice dark rack, having no real day/night cycle dosent seem to bother them and the seem fine with it always being dark.

You're presenting a false dichotomy by saying I either have to embrace no lights or providing identical conditions to their natural habitat.

Is there another person with the name Cesar_Da_KIng on here becasue i never recall saying that Do what you want put a flood light over his tank (lol) but i have no problems with people who use lights if thats what amuses them. I simply said i do not think it is NECESSARY

I never said that I want to completely, 100% replicate their natural conditions because it's simply not realistic - but I'd like to do so within my means. I was responding only to your assertion that light isn't natural for them.

Never said that either, light is very natural for them, shoot its natural for everything, except for organisms on the ocean floor and im not trying to assert anything, im just stating my opinion and having a very fascinating and intellectual debate with someone who disagrees with me, and i must say im having a lot of fun with it and am very much enjoying myself and i hope you are too, because i love talking science with someone who knows how to carry on an intellectual debate without losing it (not saying the rest of you guys dont) and i want to say thank you for your insight and providing a very different view to ponder

dichotomy

I like the word choice btw

Then that contradicts what you stated regarding the "test" of the large enclosure your friend performed.

I think i am starting to see your point on that, being that a 69gal is about 4ft yes? But what i was meaning to point out when i talked about the test is that in my opinion and from what ive seen they seem to do better in groups in bigger enclosures then alone, but we did only test it once so maybe ill contact him and have him try testing it on a few more leos because just one isnt enough to go on and your right.

I'm sorry, but there is 0 evidence to suggest they can't find their own food in 67 gallon enclosures because they are "domesticated."

I was talking about the evidence we found that he was not eating any food when we recorded him losing wait (23 grams) which led us to assume he wasnt findin it because if you make a naturalistic viv there are plenty of little cracks and creavese a cricket can get in that a leo cant and im sure that cricket is content as a cucumber to stay there until the leo leaves, but you know what they say about assuming and they are domesticated, which led us to take an educated guess and say that that was the culprit because we couldnt find a more plausible reason so we went with what made sence.

If they truly lost that ability, your friend's geckos would have died because, even in a group, that ability would have been gone, and several of them together would not have resulted in it manifesting itself if it had been truly erased.

I never said they lose the abilty and neither do we, but if you dont practice somthing every day then you tend to forget it till its just a faint memory in the very back of your head and in some cases you may never remeber it. and He probaly would have starved, which is why we removed him after he started losing weight, and maybe more eyes looking for food makes it easier to find and makes it harder for the food to hide.

Furthermore, people aren't incapable of finding their own food. They don't possess the knowledge that our ancestors did regarding living in the wild, but put a person out in the wild with some sort of food source and they will manage because instinct has not been erased in humans any more than it has been in dogs, cats, horses, or geckos.

Never said they were incapable, i hunt all the time and im very capable of finding my own food, and so is the leo to an extent same as me. But take a person whos never hunted a day in his life or maybe a captive bred leopard gecko and i can garuntee theyre not gonna be good at it like somone who dos it all the time at all but i would venture to say they might eventually get the hang of it, but that could take a long time of trial and error, maybe too long, maybe not at all. They could but its deffinatly not a garuntee and the odds are against them.

Once again thank you, you have some excellent points and youre really making me think

 

[Kristi23]

I'm sorry, I didn't realise this was unclear: "This is generally considered to be a myth." I'm not sure how that is the same as "That's a myth." Do I need to define "generally" and "considered" for you? And has Cesar ever tried it? I'm willing to bet not. So why are you whining to me and not him? I don't have to test the effects of providing no calcium to my gecko to know that it's not a good idea. You can't tell me for a second that you have personally tested every single thing you know about leopard geckos and that you never provide, as you say, "hearsay." And, if you don't, then you're being a petty hypocrite.They aren't wild, but they aren't so domesticated that they wild behaviours have been completely erased. Even dogs don't have completely wild behaviours erased. If you can find an example of any animal that couldn't find food in a large area provided, I would sure be interested to read about it.
Again, I never said he was wrong. I said it is generally considered a myth. Did I say it is absolutely, undeniably, unequivocally wrong? No. I'm not sure how "That's generally considered a myth" is disrespectful or something that would run people off. If you were to take a poll of knowledgeable gecko people on the subject, I can almost guarantee that most of them would agree it's a myth. I don't see why you're throwing a tantrum just because I simply and politely said that the general consensus is one contrary to what Cesar said. Please grow up and find something better to do with your life.


~Maggot

This is not okay. Please do not say things like this to other members.

 

[OhioGecko]

OK, the debating part of this conversation is very good, but when you both start attacking each other (DUSTER & Embrace Calamity) then there is going to be a problem. I expect you both to be considerate and professional with each other. Any more of the nonsense and warnings will be handed out.

 

[chantelpowell5698]

And you prove an excellnt point here, you might make a good scientist, yourself one day and im not saying they couldnt by any means, but seeing as we have domesticated them, from my observations, they now suck at finding their own food, same as us now that we have civilized ourselves, with the exception of a few, we have to go to a store for our food, same with leos, they are no longer good at hunting and finding their own food because we made it easy for them and they can simply wait for us to put it in a bowl for them, so now unless we they have a real ruff time hunting and searching for it in a huge cage where the crickets can hide and they have to actually search and smell for them.so going by what your saying about the going all natural thing and not doing it to amuse ourselves, your doing it all wrong too, and defeating your own argument also. im just saying from my observations, they seem less stressed in smaller enclosures.

I have a little input here with them being bad at finding food sometimes. My female leo is about 8 1/2 to 9 inches now and I have her in a medium low exo-terra tank, she out grew the 10 gallon from when I got her as a baby. She sucks so bad at finding the meal worms I put in her bowl in her tank. If I put them in there, and she's not watching me, or I don't show her they're in there, she WILL NOT eat them, at all. It's not that the tanks too big for her, but like said they know where just going to throw food in there for them, and don't take the time to look. She loves meal worms too. When I put them in there, even occasionally when she sees me put them in there she won't eat them, I have to pick her up and hold her next to the bowl so she sees them moving, then she'll crawl off my hand and eat them. And that's even with an appropriate size tank. I also have to take out all her hides and plants and log when I feed her crickets, otherwise she won't eat them and just run away from them. I have no idea why she's like this.

Just a little of what I've dealt with with my leo.

 

[acpart]

You'd think with all the geckos I have that they'd either eat on their own or get re-homed, but I have a group of the pickiest eaters around. Every time Matt (Select Gex) feeds my geckos when I'm out of town, he complains about the picky adults who need curb service to eat. I guess a lot of these picky geckos wouldn't do so well in the wild. Luckily for them, they're in the tank!

Aliza

 

[Ozy]

Yea.. Ozy absolutely will NOT eat out of a dish AT ALL. She knows the food is there. When she's hungry she'll sit in front of her food dish, when I come over she looks at me like.. WELL?? And I have to take the worms/roaches/crickets/whatever is in there out with tweezers and drop it on the tile. I think Ozy would be happy with a larger tank. She's in a 20 gallon long right now. I've been thinking about taking my fish out of the 55 gallon and making that her new home... I tried her in a 10 gallon when i got her... She was in it for one day. Spent the whole time trying to climb the glass and was NOT happy. Like it was CLEAR she wasn't happy. I put her in the 20 long (which was HUGE for as tiny as she was) and she was just as calm as could be... She seems to LIKE bigger enclosures... Now that she's getting to be pretty big, the 20 long is getting a bit cramped for her and she's letting me know it.