What's the best sand to use?

[fallen_angel]

Hmmm 9 years with a PAIR? That's only two geckos my friend, not a very big number and wouldn't mean anything towards any kind of real data. That's like saying you knew two people that have swollowed rocks and didn't have any health issues. On a small scale, the problem may not be severe or even present itself, but try housing several geckos on sand and see how many "don't have any health issues"...

 

[fallen_angel]

Ahh, Jess...I've built so many lego castle/hides! I always end up tearing them down..but they're fun and adorable while they last!

Yeah, we tore ours down too, too much of a p.i.t.a. to clean and keep moist hides moist

 

[slayer]

This pair was not set up as an experiment to prove/disprove the whole soil causes impaction theory, if it was i would have def. used a larger sample group as well as a large control group. I only used this pair as an example of how ive been keeping/breeding varius reptiles for almost 18 years now (9 of which is with this pair of leos) with out impactions or any other petshop, noob sickness. God im getting old lol

P.S. I have never used straight sand do to its inability to hold burrows or humidity. I only use sand based soil mixes.

 

[gitrdone0420]

Hmmm 9 years with a PAIR? That's only two geckos my friend, not a very big number and wouldn't mean anything towards any kind of real data. That's like saying you knew two people that have swollowed rocks and didn't have any health issues. On a small scale, the problem may not be severe or even present itself, but try housing several geckos on sand and see how many "don't have any health issues"...

Thank you, I agree again.
Anyways, we cant sit here and argue all day about sand. Congrats, Slayer that you havent had any issues. I hope for your geckos sake that it continues that way. My point is, that impaction can occur with sand, and I am not taking the risk. I encourage other people to not take that risk as well. But its your decision, do what you want.

 

[fallen_angel]

LOL @ slayer, I know you didn't specifically go out to gather data, I was just saying.. you know, just because your two geckos haven't had any problems, it really doesn't mean much. That's just my inital response to what you originally said. I think your setups look awesome, but like I said before, looks don't come before safety or health. Now, granted, you technically don't use sand. Perhaps your setup is a lot safer than using actual sand, but I would still be wary.

Anyway, all that set aside. Here's the pics I mentioned I would show, plus some:

crappy pic of a cage setup we had a long time ago, when we thought coco-fiber might be a good idea :main_rolleyes:

cage with paper towels:

cages with tile:

and for fun, some more Lego pics:

and if you just don't want to keep any of them in cages and go ahead and send them off to school so they can learn and eventually make money to pay for themselves

 

[fallen_angel]

Honestly, I think tile makes the cages look more sleek, I honestly really do love it :main_yes: Granted, you can tell by the Tupperware hides that we don't care much about "natural looks," but eventually we would like to get some more rock hides and more natural-looking cage decor. Either way, I will always continue to use the tile :main_yes:

 

[jrugila88]

I had never thought of the tile for my leos home!!! I'm going to pick some up at the hardware store tmrw...wash it off- and create a new designer home for my little female.

 

[fallen_angel]

The tile is awesome too because you could use a UTH or overhead heating.. either way, the gecko gets belly heat :main_thumbsup: Ambient air heat is also important, so actually, overhead heating is a good way to go.

If you'd like dimensions, I can help you. For your standard 20 gallon long tank, you just need two pieces of square foot tile and two pieces of 6" x 6" tile (refer to pic that has black and beige tile). The two black pieces are a square-foot and the ones in the middle are the 6" x 6"... at least I think that's right.. if you'd like, I can go measure the pieces, they're out in the garage since we just moved and are in a temporary place for the moment.

 

[Tony C]

I don't know where people get the idea that there is no sand in the leopard gecko's native habitat. Having been deployed to the middle east, I assure you that there is sand EVERYWHERE, even 12+ miles out to sea there are sand storms. Captive leopard geckos experience sand impaction when they are kept on artificial sands (calci-sand, vita-sand, etc.), dehydrated, and/or not given access proper basking temperatures (85 or 90 degrees is NOT warm enough). Healthy geckos given proper care are perfectly capable of passing a bit of sand.

 

[Lickin]

On another note I am curious as to what you mean by sand being your most attractive option? I'm probably lost in the wording.

All I meant is that I love the look of sand in tanks. I think tile is weird looking and paper towel looks cheap. I am looking into all my options and I think I can provide excellent husbandry to make sure nothing horrible happens with use of sand.

Thx again to everyone for the help. I'll post pics some day when I make my tank all pretty.

 

[mindgamer8907]

It's clearly been discussed and I know you've read it all and I'm not insulting you, but putting aesthetics before health is a poor choice. As far as the sand/no sand debate goes I have three issues that cause me to shy away from sand or sand/soil mixes.

1) Chemistry informs us that in the breakdown of minerals (even though it's not calci sand or one of those horrors it is a "sillicate" or sillicone and oxygen in a crystaline structure with other trace impurities) and compounds of that type can cause other health issues in a normally healthy anything (no biological system is perfect), systems can fail to preform 100% one time and health can suffer. My point is that even normal sand/soil can cause problems just because of inconsistency in the body (please trust my work with organic and inorganic acids and sand/ other materials, my chem. major taught me a lot about that), it's a very short step from proper digestion of sand to a clumping of the particles that blocks the way. I've seen this over and over from the acid spills on sand baths in chem labs. It could just be my experience, but I am talking about acids that range from extreme (industrial or pH<1) to perfect neutrality (pH=7.000). It's happened with all of them. That result would include the acidity of both human and gecko stomachs, it's just a matter of the stomach crushing the particles out of their concretion while they are still wet. Usually that occurs, but it only takes one time for it not to (and that happens as well).

2) Due to this substance lacking necessity as other options, including shelf liner (which can kinda look good) and tile, reacting improperly in the body even with careful and proper husbandry, the risk is also unnecessary. That's like saying that eating a burger in two bites is so euphoric it's worth the risk of choking (a decent analogy, though a bit strained). The euphoria be as it may, even if your throat can take that strain and it works every time you try it, taking that risk every time you eat a burger is clearly not the best choice to make as the body can and probably will eventually malfunction in a way that makes you choke. It's a simple mistake the body makes, things happen.

3) Though it does allow for digging behaviors and the like, I know a "lay box" or moist hide with some sort of similar substrate (cocofiber, "ecoearth", etc) or even the sand if you like, though it'd be a bit harder to keep in the box, is usually just as good for them. Yes, they can eat that too, but containing the space of contact they have with the substance is a fairly good practice anyway and generally decreases the chance for the sort of errors described to occur.

To be honest it's not even a matter of can they or can't they get impacted from the sand, because while it generally doesn't occur malfunctions happen. The whole point of not having sand is that you're gambling with a biological system. Even gambling on the more certain odds is a bit of poor form, because when one loses to that 99:1 the loss is big. It just seems like a poor decision is all.

Sorry to be preachy, just had to say that. I'm also going to reiterate that I'm not insulting anyone, even sand users, just giving a little more to the debate. I look forward to the pics and good choice on a leo!

 

[slayer]

Szczerbak and Golubev's "Gecko Fauna of the USSR and Contiguous
Regions" states that leo live "on clay-gravel soil
covered by sand and abounding in bushes of Zygophyllum". Its amazing how all these gecko have survived for millions of years with out anyone tileing the middle east since sand and natural soils are so deadly LOL:main_rolleyes: The FACTS are they (leos) have evolved to live on and in areas of silty soil and that soil in no way shape or form causes impactions or any health problems since it is part of a leos PREFERD habitat. The actual causes of imaction in captivity were covered very well by Tony C. I find it strange how most leopard gecko keepers have not progressed past "petshop husbandry" and the silly old wives tails that come along with it

 

[Khrysty]

Szczerbak and Golubev's "Gecko Fauna of the USSR and Contiguous
Regions" states that leo live "on clay-gravel soil
covered by sand and abounding in bushes of Zygophyllum". Its amazing how all these gecko have survived for millions of years with out anyone tileing the middle east since sand and natural soils are so deadly LOL:main_rolleyes: The FACTS are they (leos) have evolved to live on and in areas of silty soil and that soil in no way shape or form causes impactions or any health problems since it is part of a leos PREFERD habitat. The actual causes of imaction in captivity were covered very well by Tony C. I find it strange how most leopard gecko keepers have not progressed past "petshop husbandry" and the silly old wives tails that come along with it

Just out of curiosity, Slayer, do you know how long the expected lifespan of a leopard gecko is in the wild? I imagine there are very good reasons for being able to reproduce as young as 9 months of age. In captivity, with no risk of impaction, they can live up to 20 years. In captivity, we eliminate their predators, a lot of their diseases, (when not using sand) ANY risk at all of impaction..

Are you going to believe that they can live even half as long in their natural habitat?

This isn't about mimicking nature. It's about doing what's best for the animal.

 

[Khrysty]

A second point that I think should be made:

Though they DO live on sand in the wild, that sand isn't necessarily loose. It's not the powdery sand that most leo owners who actually use the stuff have. It's compacted, perhaps a little dusty near the top. Not all deserts have rolling dunes of snowlike sand.

 

[slayer]

Just out of curiosity, Slayer, do you know how long the expected lifespan of a leopard gecko is in the wild? I imagine there are very good reasons for being able to reproduce as young as 9 months of age. In captivity, with no risk of impaction, they can live up to 20 years. In captivity, we eliminate their predators, a lot of their diseases, (when not using sand) ANY risk at all of impaction..

Are you going to believe that they can live even half as long in their natural habitat?

This isn't about mimicking nature. It's about doing what's best for the animal.

...............Im sure that they have a smaller avarage life span in the wild do to predation and such but I have yet to see and hold one of those 20 year captive leo you are taking about. I have heard of one that was housed at the University of Tennessee and a few in Ron Trempers collection. Other then that i refuse to belive that the THOUSANDS of leo that are sold every year in this hobby survive to see that 20year age your talking about. My guess is the avarage captive lifespan for a leopard gecko do to keeper neglect and inexperince, is 5 years.

This isn't about mimicking nature. It's about doing what's best for the animal.

............... And i feel whats best for the animals is keeping it in the conditions NATURE and EVOLUTION designed it to live in.

 

[Khrysty]

And i feel whats best for the animals is keeping it in the conditions NATURE and EVOLUTION designed it to live in.

Hm...I wonder, then. Are you against medicating a sick animal? There are no medications in nature. Surely, if their body can't handle whatever disease they may have, then it's best to let nature cull them out? Survival of the the fittest, eh?

 

[fallen_angel]

I agree with Khrysty all the way on all points but am growing tired of this conversation. To each their own, do what you want and so will I. If you think having it live in an enclosure that is more like their natural habitat, fine.. but don't claim that the way you keep your geckos is any better than anyone else, it's only your opinion.

I prefer to have them kept on tile, period.

 

[thestack510]

Its amazing how all these gecko have survived for millions of years with out anyone tileing the middle east since sand and natural soils are so deadly.

The FACTS are they (leos) have evolved to live on and in areas of silty soil and that soil in no way shape or form causes impactions or any health problems since it is part of a leos PREFERD habitat.

I would love to see your gecko that has lived for millions of years. :main_laugh: Your facts are askew.

"...in no way, shape , or form causes impactions or any other health problems..."

This sounds so rediculous to me. Impaction is definitely not a myth and you are misleading people by implying that impaction is a non issue. It is a fact that there is sand in Leo's natural habitat. It is also very likely that Leos live longer in captivity than they do in the wild, as do many animals. Why risk impaction when it is so easy to avoid the entire issue? You're going to do what you want and scoff at anyone else's opinions to the contrary. I hope your Leos don't pay the price in the long run.

For those of you who do not believe that impaction can and will happen click this link. GRAPHIC IMAGE WARNING! http://homepage.mac.com/exoticdvm/reptile/PhotoAlbum181.html :main_robin: See that on the table? IT'S SAND!

THE BEST SAND IS NO SAND!

 

[Khrysty]

Thanks Stack, Jess...for backing me up here.

I get tired of this conversation, too, and I usually leave it be..but some things he said just got me a bit miffed.

 

[slayer]

Hm...I wonder, then. Are you against medicating a sick animal? There are no medications in nature. Surely, if their body can't handle whatever disease they may have, then it's best to let nature cull them out? Survival of the the fittest, eh?

.................. With proper husbandry many if not all of the "petshop illnesses" such as impaction, unmanagable parasite loads, stomatitis,mbd and such noobies encounter in this hobbie can be totaly avoided. The key is using proper "basic husbandry" not "petshop husbandry". To be against medical help of an already sick pet though is stupid and not me.