where can I find some good playsand?

[lilmike]

Hey i was wondering where i can fine some nice fine grated playsand i can use that isnt too big. i know some of you guys have mixed feelings on sand so plz dont give me the whole sand rant because it isnt going to change my mind. thanks

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

lowes and home depot

 

[philly4ya]

Hey i was wondering where i can fine some nice fine grated playsand i can use that isnt too big. i know some of you guys have mixed feelings on sand so plz dont give me the whole sand rant because it isnt going to change my mind. thanks

Let me guess, In a few months you will post "Help, my gecko is impacted" or "something is wrong with my geckos eye" but I cannot afford a vet. You minus well sit your gecko on a ledge, let him jump off and spare him the long months of suffering.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Let me guess, In a few months you will post "Help, my gecko is impacted" or "something is wrong with my geckos eye" but I cannot afford a vet. You minus well sit your gecko on a ledge, let him jump off and spare him the long months of suffering.

Have you ever been to Pakistan? I have and I assure you they are on sand in the wild. I do not use sand personally but I know a lot of people who do and have NEVER had any issues. I also work at a reptile veterinary office and have NEVER had a leopard gecko come in for impaction caused by sand. Can it happen...YES of course. At least the OP is smart enough to be getting play sand which is not squared and far less likely to cause impaction. There is no reason for you to imply or assume that they don't have money for a vet nor for you to assume every gecko on sand will become impacted. I wont say who but more than 5 breeders in the site sponsors list use sand for their geckos...so obviously it works.

Try to be more constructive and informative to prove a point rather than slander someone...it gets a better result. :main_thumbsup:

 

[lilmike]

Let me guess, In a few months you will post "Help, my gecko is impacted" or "something is wrong with my geckos eye" but I cannot afford a vet. You minus well sit your gecko on a ledge, let him jump off and spare him the long months of suffering.

Yeah i think that comment was totaly uncalled for and im not some guy who just bought his gecko last week with no reasearch and said hey im new and i got a gecko on a whim help..i actually know what i am doing.
Hey Enigmatic_Geckos do you know how big they play sand from lowes/home depot is? like size or anything?

 

[Dimidiata]

i would also advise home depot, i went there looking for slate tile, They asked me how big my tank was..... they must be used to us gecko keepers coming in.

 

[philly4ya]

Have you ever been to Pakistan? I have and I assure you they are on sand in the wild. I do not use sand personally but I know a lot of people who do and have NEVER had any issues. I also work at a reptile veterinary office and have NEVER had a leopard gecko come in for impaction caused by sand. Can it happen...YES of course. At least the OP is smart enough to be getting play sand which is not squared and far less likely to cause impaction. There is no reason for you to imply or assume that they don't have money for a vet nor for you to assume every gecko on sand will become impacted. I wont say who but more than 5 breeders in the site sponsors list use sand for their geckos...so obviously it works.

Try to be more constructive and informative to prove a point rather than slander someone...it gets a better result. :main_thumbsup:

So you have been to Pakistan and you work at a veterinary office( how convenient) and never saw not one case of sand impaction or infected eyes due to sand? I am not buying it! You don't use it yourself but encourage others to do so. You said it yourself it can happen. Is it worth the risk?

 

[Dimidiata]

So you have been to Pakistan and you work at a veterinary office( how convenient) and never saw not one case of sand impaction or infected eyes due to sand? I am not buying it! You don't use it yourself but encourage others to do so. You said it yourself it can happen. Is it worth the risk?

THIS IS NOT THE THREAD to be arguing this, the op already say they didnt want to hear it, plus what would EG has nothing to gain here by lying. I recomend perlite in HH but i use papper towels, i recomend 5gal tanks for betta but i use 10gals, i say fertilize plants but i dont... geez. JUST because i cant fallow through on my own advice doesnt mean i cant give proper advice to others.

 

[lilmike]

So you have been to Pakistan and you work at a veterinary office( how convenient) and never saw not one case of sand impaction or infected eyes due to sand? I am not buying it! You don't use it yourself but encourage others to do so. You said it yourself it can happen. Is it worth the risk?

Im not trying to troll or be disrespectful but i mentioned that if you have an issue with sand plz dont complain about. now if you dont wanna asnwer the questions its your choice fine by me. but like i said before talking about how sand is bad is not going to make me change my mind

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

So you have been to Pakistan and you work at a veterinary office( how convenient) and never saw not one case of sand impaction or infected eyes due to sand? I am not buying it! You don't use it yourself but encourage others to do so. You said it yourself it can happen. Is it worth the risk?

Yes I am a former marine sniper who has conducted combat ops in Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghan. If you doubt me and have ways of confirming who I am or what I have done I will gladly encourage you to invoke on my personal history...or you can PM me about your doubt but this thread is not about me. You can doubt or believe whatever you want.
I am currently work for a vet office in Yorba Linda Ca where we see predominantly exotics and reptiles. I do not use it (sand) nor do I encourage it but I also am not 100% against the use of it. Geckos can get impaction from any debris they ingest be it paper towel or carpet fibers. Is it worth the risk?...that's up to the individual owner. That's why proper education on appropriate sands (as can be) and use of dishes and so on is important. The OP already said they were doing it regardless...so instead of criticizing them, educating them on safer techniques is more beneficial.

 

[philly4ya]

THIS IS NOT THE THREAD to be arguing this, the op already say they didnt want to hear it, plus what would EG has nothing to gain here by lying. I recomend perlite in HH but i use papper towels, i recomend 5gal tanks for betta but i use 10gals, i say fertilize plants but i dont... geez. JUST because i cant fallow through on my own advice doesnt mean i cant give proper advice to others.

I was young and ignorant myself once. No worries, I have nothing else to say!

 

[animeavatar]

Yes I am a former marine sniper who has conducted combat ops in Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghan.

That's cool, have yopu ever felt the texture? Is it packed hard on the ground or loose?

 

[Dimidiata]

I was young and ignorant myself once. No worries, I have nothing else to say!

and i hope im never an old crank. note my sig, it there for a reason. You could be old as dirt and a 3 yrold coulds still know more, age has nothing to do with knowledge.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I was young and ignorant myself once.

I'm not young or ignorant.

If care is taken to select and prepare sand, and if the animal being housed on it is healthy and all other husbandry practices are appropriate, then sand or sand/soil mixed are something that can be used safely and successfully for leopard geckos. Furthermore it can produce some beneficial repercussions for the animal's health and development.

Misuse of sand can have negative consequences. So can operating a hair drier in the bathtub.

Using sand correctly and safely requires some forethought, planning, preparation and knowledge of the species that is to be housed on it, so it is not usually recommended for novice and even intermediate keepers. Some advanced keepers who would be capable of using sand will choose other substrate options for a variety of reasons, convenience, ease of use, aesthetics, the physical properties as they interact with heat sources and so on.

Claiming that it cannot ever be used successfully is only displaying your own ignorance and inexperience. You just held up a banner that says "I don't know any better!" and waved it around for everyone to see, as though you were proud of it. It'd be funny if you weren't behaving like a disruptive troll in the process.

At any rate...

Sand is pretty widely available from home improvement and landscaping retailers, as well as any quarries or wholesalers who may be around. It's also sold in some places that sell outdoor toys, as a sandbox fill. Selection is important, as are the steps one takes when using it.

I'm not real comfortable discussing some of the details in an open forum, because I do not want to give anyone the misimpression that it is an easy choice, so the following will be strictly generalities and should not be used as a thorough and complete guide on the subject.

Things you want to consider for are:

• Grade
• Shape
• Type
• Chemical interaction
• Packing density
• Preparation
• Depth and arrangement.
• Choice of heat source.
• Overall health of the leopard geckos to be housed.
• Choice of feeder insect.
• Your overall experience with leopard geckos.

Grade- the size of the grains. You want them large enough to avoid being dusty, since dust can be an irritant. You want them small enough to pass relatively easily through the digestive system should they be ingested. Generally you also want a slight mix in the grain sizes, as it plays a role in how the sand packs. If they are uniformly even, you can experience something akin to what is seen in a ball-pit at a Chuck E Cheese.

Shape- rounded is better than squared off, as sharp corners can cause microscopic abrasions that are best avoided. Sharp corners also represent more of a danger as an irritant and impaction risk should they end up under the eyelid, in the vent or being ingested. Perfect circular grains also contribute to a looser packing density, so overall flattened ovoids are generally best.

Type- which minerals are present in the mix. This tends to inform many of the other bullet points on that list; different minerals tend to be shaped differently, will conduct heat slightly differently, will be more or less dusty and will be more or less prone to bonding. Color actually comes into play slightly as well, intersecting the behaviors associated with stealth and camouflage. Dirt mixtures, sand combined with fine soil, are ideal if prepared properly.

Chemical interaction- some sand mixtures, when exposed to a catalyst, will form chemical bonds between grains. The ones you're aiming for will develop a slight crust if exposed to water (a solvent) and then allowed to dry. It helps with packing density. You're basically looking for calcium oxide, which you can turn into calcium hydroxide by wetting it down and baking it with a heat source. Lime, pretty much. It's making a microscopic layer of calcium hydroxide between all the grains; the same process used to make concrete. Just much, much, much smaller.

Packing density- largely a result of the above mentioned factors, it's the idea that your sand should be pressed down and fairly solid. You want to avoid loose dunes or piles, which can be easily ingested and will be kicked up everywhere as the animal walks or digs. There should be some variability and yield to the surface, but it should not be loose and free flowing.

Preparation- some of it is pretty easy, like rinsing the sand using an extremely fine strainer to help remove some of the dust. Some of it is slightly more involved, like mixing, packing and arranging it or baking out the moisture to an appropriate degree on the surface. If you're aiming for a bioactive enclosure, you should definitely check out Gregg's posts on the subject. My generalizations here should not be mistaken for a thorough explanation.

Depth and arrangement- leopard geckos will dig if given a substrate which allows for it. Using a deeper layer of substrate can allow for that digging behavior, and trigger instinctive regulation behaviors, where they associate up and down with factors such as heat and moisture. These are often altered by the presence of other terrarium fixtures; caves and fake plants, rocks and bits of slate can all be positioned above, or buried in the sand to alter some of those behaviors. Since the instincts developed in relation to wild conditions, care should be taken to ensure that they function correctly in the captive environment, where heat, light and moisture are being artificially supplied. Done right, bits of slate and rock and wood can pre-determine where and how the animals display specific behaviors.

Choice of heat source- the thermal conductivity of the substrate will vary depending on the mineral mix and the packing density, the depth and arrangement intersect this as well. There's a fairly strong chance that you will need to take some extra steps in creating an appropriate thermal gradient and finding a balance that gives you the correct temperatures in the right places. Heat pads and tape, the consideration of a layer of tile between the glass and the sand, lamps- the output and placement are all variables. Take care to ensure that temperatures are being measured accurately and thoroughly, use a finely calibrated precision thermometer, high quality thermostats and a temp gun to spot check and verify.

Overall health of the leopard geckos being housed- the health and condition of the animal(s) can cause changes in behavior. The things done by a healthy animal are not always identical to some of the things done by an animal experiencing problems. Parasite loads, improper nutrition and supplementation, difficulties shedding, hemipenal prolapses, egg binding, dehydration, digestive difficulties... these can change the behavior of the animal and potentially lead to problems with the substrate that are unlikely to be experienced by an animal that was perfectly healthy. The condition changes the behavior, which changes the probabilities associated with risk factors.

Choice of feeder insect- in addition to the nutritional value, size, shape and behavior of insects can change the details of how a leopard gecko hunts them. Worms will be closer to the substrate than crickets or beetles, smaller prey items sometimes result in a grab that hits the substrate rather than being a clean strike, larger prey items sometimes prompt the gecko to drag the insect around in order to reposition their grip or break off a manageable piece, those that jump and run result in more missed strikes than those which lay and wiggle... selecting appropriate insects that will best result in clean strikes and are easily swallowed can have a tremendous impact on how much sand is likely to be present in the digestive tract at any given time. A grain of small, round sand will be passed and eliminated with the waste. Many grains of sand can bunch together and clog up (especially around the bends), like hair in a sink.

The overall experience with leopard geckos- the most crucial factor of all is the educated, experienced, knowledgeable oversight of the owner. If someone genuinely, thoroughly knows leopard geckos, then they are in a position to recognize, identify and understand all the factors present in the environment, as well as be able to monitor minute but meaningful behaviors and changes seen in the animal. It's the thing that makes it possible as well as the safety net that makes the risks (which can be substantially mitigated but never eliminated entirely) acceptable, even desirable in order to gain the benefits. This is something that should be approached without ego or conceit, everyone who is thinking of using a particulate substrate should honestly assess themselves and come to an informed conclusion about their own preparedness to handle the variables and added responsibilities. There's no shame in not being ready or in deciding it's more than you want to deal with even if you're capable, the only thing that will result in condemnation and judgment is going ahead anyway despite not being so.


Some of the upsides if it's done well... Behavioral complexity, instincts exist that are genetically mandates which will only end up being displayed when the proper stimuli is encountered, some of those are related to the physical environment around wild geckos. Better development of muscle and bone tissue, the variable and slightly yielding surface of a particulate substrate brings different parts of the foot into play as they move, each step is unique, with its own slight difference in angle and traction, prompting a much healthier growth, better exercise as a result of normal routines and avoiding difficulties caused by repetitive motion and constant exposure to hard surfaces (think carpal tunnel syndrome, or the sores on the feet of birds that only have uniform perches).

It's not impossible. It's not even a bad idea. It's just an idea that is better or worse for every individual owner, based on their unique abilities, knowledge and inclinations. Even if they're young. Although best not to try if they're ignorant.

'course... calling someone ignorant when one is themselves ignorant is a klein bottle of failure.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Neat. I just wrote my one thousandth post. Who possibly could have guessed that it would be over 1,600 words long and imply that someone was wrong about something?

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Neat. I just wrote my one thousandth post. Who possibly could have guessed that it would be over 1,600 words long and imply that someone was wrong about something?

:guitarist::drummer: You Rock!

 

[philly4ya]

I'm not young or ignorant.

If care is taken to select and prepare sand, and if the animal being housed on it is healthy and all other husbandry practices are appropriate, then sand or sand/soil mixed are something that can be used safely and successfully for leopard geckos. Furthermore it can produce some beneficial repercussions for the animal's health and development.

Misuse of sand can have negative consequences. So can operating a hair drier in the bathtub.

Using sand correctly and safely requires some forethought, planning, preparation and knowledge of the species that is to be housed on it, so it is not usually recommended for novice and even intermediate keepers. Some advanced keepers who would be capable of using sand will choose other substrate options for a variety of reasons, convenience, ease of use, aesthetics, the physical properties as they interact with heat sources and so on.

Claiming that it cannot ever be used successfully is only displaying your own ignorance and inexperience. You just held up a banner that says "I don't know any better!" and waved it around for everyone to see, as though you were proud of it. It'd be funny if you weren't behaving like a disruptive troll in the process.

At any rate...

Sand is pretty widely available from home improvement and landscaping retailers, as well as any quarries or wholesalers who may be around. It's also sold in some places that sell outdoor toys, as a sandbox fill. Selection is important, as are the steps one takes when using it.

I'm not real comfortable discussing some of the details in an open forum, because I do not want to give anyone the misimpression that it is an easy choice, so the following will be strictly generalities and should not be used as a thorough and complete guide on the subject.

Things you want to consider for are:

• Grade
• Shape
• Type
• Chemical interaction
• Packing density
• Preparation
• Depth and arrangement.
• Choice of heat source.
• Overall health of the leopard geckos to be housed.
• Choice of feeder insect.
• Your overall experience with leopard geckos.

Grade- the size of the grains. You want them large enough to avoid being dusty, since dust can be an irritant. You want them small enough to pass relatively easily through the digestive system should they be ingested. Generally you also want a slight mix in the grain sizes, as it plays a role in how the sand packs. If they are uniformly even, you can experience something akin to what is seen in a ball-pit at a Chuck E Cheese.

Shape- rounded is better than squared off, as sharp corners can cause microscopic abrasions that are best avoided. Sharp corners also represent more of a danger as an irritant and impaction risk should they end up under the eyelid, in the vent or being ingested. Perfect circular grains also contribute to a looser packing density, so overall flattened ovoids are generally best.

Type- which minerals are present in the mix. This tends to inform many of the other bullet points on that list; different minerals tend to be shaped differently, will conduct heat slightly differently, will be more or less dusty and will be more or less prone to bonding. Color actually comes into play slightly as well, intersecting the behaviors associated with stealth and camouflage. Dirt mixtures, sand combined with fine soil, are ideal if prepared properly.

Chemical interaction- some sand mixtures, when exposed to a catalyst, will form chemical bonds between grains. The ones you're aiming for will develop a slight crust if exposed to water (a solvent) and then allowed to dry. It helps with packing density. You're basically looking for calcium oxide, which you can turn into calcium hydroxide by wetting it down and baking it with a heat source. Lime, pretty much. It's making a microscopic layer of calcium hydroxide between all the grains; the same process used to make concrete. Just much, much, much smaller.

Packing density- largely a result of the above mentioned factors, it's the idea that your sand should be pressed down and fairly solid. You want to avoid loose dunes or piles, which can be easily ingested and will be kicked up everywhere as the animal walks or digs. There should be some variability and yield to the surface, but it should not be loose and free flowing.

Preparation- some of it is pretty easy, like rinsing the sand using an extremely fine strainer to help remove some of the dust. Some of it is slightly more involved, like mixing, packing and arranging it or baking out the moisture to an appropriate degree on the surface. If you're aiming for a bioactive enclosure, you should definitely check out Gregg's posts on the subject. My generalizations here should not be mistaken for a thorough explanation.

Depth and arrangement- leopard geckos will dig if given a substrate which allows for it. Using a deeper layer of substrate can allow for that digging behavior, and trigger instinctive regulation behaviors, where they associate up and down with factors such as heat and moisture. These are often altered by the presence of other terrarium fixtures; caves and fake plants, rocks and bits of slate can all be positioned above, or buried in the sand to alter some of those behaviors. Since the instincts developed in relation to wild conditions, care should be taken to ensure that they function correctly in the captive environment, where heat, light and moisture are being artificially supplied. Done right, bits of slate and rock and wood can pre-determine where and how the animals display specific behaviors.

Choice of heat source- the thermal conductivity of the substrate will vary depending on the mineral mix and the packing density, the depth and arrangement intersect this as well. There's a fairly strong chance that you will need to take some extra steps in creating an appropriate thermal gradient and finding a balance that gives you the correct temperatures in the right places. Heat pads and tape, the consideration of a layer of tile between the glass and the sand, lamps- the output and placement are all variables. Take care to ensure that temperatures are being measured accurately and thoroughly, use a finely calibrated precision thermometer, high quality thermostats and a temp gun to spot check and verify.

Overall health of the leopard geckos being housed- the health and condition of the animal(s) can cause changes in behavior. The things done by a healthy animal are not always identical to some of the things done by an animal experiencing problems. Parasite loads, improper nutrition and supplementation, difficulties shedding, hemipenal prolapses, egg binding, dehydration, digestive difficulties... these can change the behavior of the animal and potentially lead to problems with the substrate that are unlikely to be experienced by an animal that was perfectly healthy. The condition changes the behavior, which changes the probabilities associated with risk factors.

Choice of feeder insect- in addition to the nutritional value, size, shape and behavior of insects can change the details of how a leopard gecko hunts them. Worms will be closer to the substrate than crickets or beetles, smaller prey items sometimes result in a grab that hits the substrate rather than being a clean strike, larger prey items sometimes prompt the gecko to drag the insect around in order to reposition their grip or break off a manageable piece, those that jump and run result in more missed strikes than those which lay and wiggle... selecting appropriate insects that will best result in clean strikes and are easily swallowed can have a tremendous impact on how much sand is likely to be present in the digestive tract at any given time. A grain of small, round sand will be passed and eliminated with the waste. Many grains of sand can bunch together and clog up (especially around the bends), like hair in a sink.

The overall experience with leopard geckos- the most crucial factor of all is the educated, experienced, knowledgeable oversight of the owner. If someone genuinely, thoroughly knows leopard geckos, then they are in a position to recognize, identify and understand all the factors present in the environment, as well as be able to monitor minute but meaningful behaviors and changes seen in the animal. It's the thing that makes it possible as well as the safety net that makes the risks (which can be substantially mitigated but never eliminated entirely) acceptable, even desirable in order to gain the benefits. This is something that should be approached without ego or conceit, everyone who is thinking of using a particulate substrate should honestly assess themselves and come to an informed conclusion about their own preparedness to handle the variables and added responsibilities. There's no shame in not being ready or in deciding it's more than you want to deal with even if you're capable, the only thing that will result in condemnation and judgment is going ahead anyway despite not being so.


Some of the upsides if it's done well... Behavioral complexity, instincts exist that are genetically mandates which will only end up being displayed when the proper stimuli is encountered, some of those are related to the physical environment around wild geckos. Better development of muscle and bone tissue, the variable and slightly yielding surface of a particulate substrate brings different parts of the foot into play as they move, each step is unique, with its own slight difference in angle and traction, prompting a much healthier growth, better exercise as a result of normal routines and avoiding difficulties caused by repetitive motion and constant exposure to hard surfaces (think carpal tunnel syndrome, or the sores on the feet of birds that only have uniform perches).

It's not impossible. It's not even a bad idea. It's just an idea that is better or worse for every individual owner, based on their unique abilities, knowledge and inclinations. Even if they're young. Although best not to try if they're ignorant.

'course... calling someone ignorant when one is themselves ignorant is a klein bottle of failure.

The only thing I regret is calling that young man ignorant even tho it was not due to the sand.
There is nothing in that long post you wrote that I don't already know.
I am not against sand for those with enough experience to use it wisely, but as we all know it can this is a beginner.

This was exactly my point:

Using sand correctly and safely requires some forethought, planning, preparation and knowledge of the species that is to be housed on it, so it is not usually recommended for novice and even intermediate keepers. Some advanced keepers who would be capable of using sand will choose other substrate options for a variety of reasons, convenience, ease of use, aesthetics, the physical properties as they interact with heat sources and so on.

 

[kizzer182]

Just gunna post a few pics up so you can see what the afghan and paki deserts are like... 80-90 % of it is a solid substance

This is the substrate they live on. All this about sand.... the only proper sand in Pakistan is what's called a beach.until you have been on a desert and realise that 80% of them aint sand but yet a solid substrate. The deserts that are sand have a small survival rate for most animals. You will find mainly scorpions snakes and spiders in sandy areas. Elephants mearcats antelopes lizards lions ect ect live on solid substrate in the wild.

Even the geckos iv seen in spain live on clay sorta substances, they lay on the side walk getting belly heat of the pavement tiles. I.mean even the great sandy desert in Australia is more solid than sand. I hope this bends a few peoples points of views about deserts, not every desert is like the 1 you saw on Aladdin when you was little.

 

[kizzer182]

Have you ever been to Pakistan? I have and I assure you they are on sand in the wild

I dunno ware or what war you was fighting but a marine on sand duty.... considering most the fighting is done in urban areas or Iraq and afghan I don't see how this is true, what were you looking for camel spiders?

And why are you "conducting combat ops" in Pakistan this job is done by NATO, I'm sorry but really.... marine sniper.... I thought they borrowed for 3 _ 6 weeks and fed info to there post....

 

[M_surinamensis]

There is nothing in that long post you wrote that I don't already know.

I'm sure.

this is a beginner

Is it?

This was exactly my point:

How odd that nobody managed to understand that. I thought your point was that the OP may as well kill their gecko outright, that you were accusing Enigmatic Geckos of being a liar and accusing Dimidiata of being ignorant for mentioning that sand was possible to use appropriately even though they chose not to do so themselves.

It was probably my mistake in assuming you understood the meanings of the words you chose to use. Obviously despite not saying anything remotely like the quoted portion that you are now claiming was your point, it was what you meant all along.

Millennium hand and shrimp, tell me about the golf shoes! I'll leave it to you to guess what I meant by that (hint: it was impolite).

Kizzer, every one of the three photos you posted showed sand. Or at least sandy dirt. Which is... pretty much the point that was being made by Enigmatic, use it right if it's going to be used.