White Gecko w/ Eclipse Eyes

[JME]

I'm in need of some help. I've hatched a bunch of white geckos with black eclipse eyes from a Diablo Blanco x Diablo Blanco breeding. My DB breeders have solid red eyes. These DB's have produced blazing blizzards, red-eyed DB's, and also black-eyed DB's. I can't find information about a white gecko with an eclipse eye. What am I looking at?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Some siblings:

 

[RepGurl]

From what I have heard eclipse eyes can randomly pop up in blizzard geckos. My guess is that is what you have happening only since it is a DB pair maybe its not so random.

 

[Halley]

DB x DB should give you 100% DB.

Are you sure your geckos are both DBs?

 

[kooteepee]

.

Sure sounds like a blizzard to me.

 

[cj.thomas21]

Do you have any pictures of the parents? Where did you get them from?

 

[JME]

100% positive they are DB. All of my geckos have been purchased from Ron Tremper. The male is what Ron calls an Xanthic Diablo Blanco. Ron released it to me as I spent a small fortune with him. The female is a red-eyed DB.

Here's the female:

and the male:

The "Xanthic Male" looks a lot like a blazing blizzard but here's Ron's explanation to me:

"As I mentioned before, you are the one and only person I have let have one of my xanthic project males.
This means that you and I are working at exactly the same point of morph development.
So you can expect to get a variety of offspring from the genetics I sold you that resemble each other and
that come close or hit the genes perfectly to make or lead to the xanthic.
This is what I call project "by-product". It is what no one ever sees when after 3 years of refinement
I release the real deal that breeds true.

So yes, you are likely to see banana blizzards, BBs, banana blizzards 100% het for DB, pure DBs, Blancos and some with very yellow eyes as pictured on my DB webpage. There is a difference between
what the xanthic will be and a BB het for DB.

In your case, you have less breeding stock of the project genes, but your male is the exact brother to the male I am using. Both of these males had very yellow eyes until the geckos were 6-7". It is now up to
you and I to breed the best offspring with the best eye color to finally perfect the xanthic.

Right now, you should save all daughters from the male you got from me and breed those for this coming
season. From here out it is a matter selective line breeding."


I'm a monitor guy and tried my hand at a few geckos to have some fun but the genetics are really confusing to me. I've never seen white geckos with eclipse eyes.

OT but here are a few of the monitors that I breed:

Leucistic (White) Varanus Kingorum

Varanus Caudolineatus:

Kimberly Rock Monitors:

Pilbara:

and my favorites, lace and croc monitors:

Monitor genetics are easy. I find geckos very confusing. The black eyes have me baffled!

 

[Gazz]

If this leo's above other eye is the same as this then it is a Talbino blizzard(BB) HET eclipse.And the offspring would be a mix of (light eyed)-Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB),(dark eyed)-Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB),Talbino blizzard(BB) HET eclipse,Talbino*false*eclipse blizzard(BB) HET eclipse.Due from a Talbino eclipse blizzrd(DB) X Talbino blizzard(BB) HET eclipse breeding.

 

[Nigel4less]

It seems to me that you got a DB Het, or else you wouldn't be producing Blazing Blizzards.
And No offense to Ron but if the "Xanthic" is truly a DB how in the world could you produce anything else BUT Diablo Blancos?

 

[JME]

It seems to me that you got a DB Het, or else you wouldn't be producing Blazing Blizzards.
And No offense to Ron but if the "Xanthic" is truly a DB how in the world could you produce anything else BUT Diablo Blancos?

I don't believe you're correct. I have a pair of red-eyed DB's and they do not produce 100% red-eyed DB's when bred together. Don't forgot, Ron uses the "Diablo Blanco" name to describe several varations of this morph. DB's do not have to be white with red-eyes according to Ron.

 

[David Loftin]

I think that the white leos with black eyes.. Looks like non albino Blizzards. They however may just be dark blazing blizzards.. What temperatures are you incubating at? I have had Tremper Blazing Blizzards that appeared to have solid black eyes.. until you shined a light in their eyes.. They glowed a very dark red. :main_robin:

When you are dealing with simple genetic traits.. Like Albinos, Patternless, Blizzard, Mack Snow/Super Snow.. when not combining them.. things are easy.. When you start adding in the whole RAPTOR combo to the Blizzards possibility to have Colored Eyes.. There is no way to know for sure what is exactly happening.. Test Breeding is what you have to do.. and even with that.. things are still confusing..

I agree the female is a Diablo Blanco. The male though.. I really don't know. What does his other eye look like? What makes him a DB if he doesn't have any red coloration to his eyes? Why don't you try breeding him to a normal tremper albino not het for anything and a normal blizzard not het for anything? That way you could figure out for sure if he is a blazing blizzard.. or just a blizzard.

The other thing to remember.. RAPTOR x RAPTOR does not always = RAPTOR. The majority of babies produced from that pairing were RAPTORs.. but I have hatched out APTORS with no red eye coloration from that pairing as well.. So it would make sense if you would be getting the same thing with DB x DB.

:main_huh:

 

[JME]

Gazz,

Ron descibes this gecko as an Xanthic Diablo Blanco. He swears that through selective breeding it will eventually (hopefully) produce all yellow eyes.

I paid Ron over $2k for this animal so I hope he's not bluffing. This male has also produced several pure white red-eyed DB's, yellow bodied Db's with red eyes, blancos with yellow eyes, white and yellow bodied geckos with black eclipse eyes.

Does anyone have a picture of another white gecko with black eyes? I though pure white geckos would only produce red eclipse eyes or albino eyes, or snake eyes?

The help is greatly appreciated.

 

[David Loftin]

Here is a picture of a Blizzard with a Black Eye.. Right Eye & Left Eye. At certain times of the day.. he was near white. These pictures were taken when he was very dark..

 

[JME]

I think that the white leos with black eyes.. Looks like non albino Blizzards. They however may just be dark blazing blizzards.. What temperatures are you incubating at? I have had Tremper Blazing Blizzards that appeared to have solid black eyes.. until you shined a light in their eyes.. They glowed a very dark red. :main_robin:

When you are dealing with simple genetic traits.. Like Albinos, Patternless, Blizzard, Mack Snow/Super Snow.. when not combining them.. things are easy.. When you start adding in the whole RAPTOR combo to the Blizzards possibility to have Colored Eyes.. There is no way to know for sure what is exactly happening.. Test Breeding is what you have to do.. and even with that.. things are still confusing..

I agree the female is a Diablo Blanco. The male though.. I really don't know. What does his other eye look like? What makes him a DB if he doesn't have any red coloration to his eyes? Why don't you try breeding him to a normal tremper albino not het for anything and a normal blizzard not het for anything? That way you could figure out for sure if he is a blazing blizzard.. or just a blizzard.

The other thing to remember.. RAPTOR x RAPTOR does not always = RAPTOR. The majority of babies produced from that pairing were RAPTORs.. but I have hatched out APTORS with no red eye coloration from that pairing as well.. So it would make sense if you would be getting the same thing with DB x DB.

:main_huh:

Thanks David, you post is a big help. I used a flash when taking pictures and expected to see red eyes. I'm surprised that they still show up as black but I'll try a flash light. Also, the eyes aren't nearly as sensitive to light as my red-eyed DB's.

Both of the males eyes look exactly the same. Here are a few additional e-mails from Tremper to me that might help everyone understand his genetics. I'm not sure what to think.

Here's my e-mail. Ron's answers are in qoutes:



Ron,

I'm trying to get my arms around these genetics. A couple of more questions if you don't mind:

I have several DBs and het for DBs that I purchased from you. What happens if I cross this male with the female DBs that I currently have?

"In this cross you will get 50% patternless geckos......half of those will have normal colored albino eyes and half wiill be Diablo Blancos with all red eyes or snake eyes."


If I cross this male with a RAPTOR what will I have? Hets for Super Raptors?

"No, the super raptor morph is not the result of any Diablo Blanco genetics.
If you cross a DB male with a female raptor you will get all banded albinos that
are het for DB and Raptor. If you then bred these double hets together you will only get more DBs and banded hets."



Is there such a thing as a Super DB or a Super Emerine?

No. No one has made a DB or Emerine that is a co-dominant morph. It may
be impossible to combine.


Another e-mail from me:

No problem Ron. My concern is that I cannot tell the difference between a blazing blizzard and the xanthic DB male (or the yellow eyed hatchlings). The eyes appear almost identical. What’s the difference between them? As I put these animals in breeding groups I’d hate to think I was pairing an xanthic DB with a red-eyed DB when in fact I’m just pairing a blazing blizzard with a DB and creating hets for DB.

Ron's response:

"they need to be around 6" to sort things out.
at that size you can see if the eyes are red or marbled or yellow.
Once the geckos get big the eye color can darken to a point that you can't tell much at all."
R


"Like I said, it is determined at 6".
Once they get older the eye color shifts and then it may be very hard to see.
the body color, eye color and parents of your male determined its designation as a xanthic.
That male you received is the only one like that I have let out.
It is possible that you could make a banana raptor from the breeding, too, but that is
another story.
I must rush now to meet the final on these shipments and the UPS arrival."
R


"Xanthics:
Some thoughts that pertain to such a project.
As you know, the xanthic is a very new genetic item.
As with all new projects and genes it takes 1-2 years to
sort out the best geckos and refine the mutation.
By buying the only male xanthic project gecko I have let out,
you are just one step behind me with results.
As for the potential xanthic young.........you will want to label
and holdback the ones that have a nice yellow body color over the white
and that show the yellow eyes at that 6" size I discussed yesterday.
These will be the geckos to breed back to your male, so make the young
to be females.
The yellow eyes at 6" tend to fade by adulthood at this stage of improving the
xanthics.
This procedure is what I am doing.

DBs:
You will want to take the best white geckos at 7-8" of size with good red eyes to keep or
sell.

Blazing Blizzards:
you should have a limited number of these as your geckos have been refined two generations
from the original pairings. The BBs will have blackish marbling or very dark snake eyes by 7".

Banana Raptors:
It is possible to produce a yellow colored patternless gecko with all red eyes. This body
color would have to be determined at near sexual maturity as the yellow in babies changes
depending on the genetics and variations within the yellow genes."


Does this help anyone make sense of the genes? I'm a bit lost. Thanks again.

 

[David Loftin]

I also forgot to say that your Monitors are awesome.. I have never seen a baby Lace Monitor before.. I just dealt with a few adults.. Awesome creatures.

You should make another thread with more pictures of them..

 

[Halley]

What I really want to know is when RT produced the first Xanthic. Was this when he was breeding hets together, or when he was breeding DB x DB? I would assume that the gecko would have to be a Blazing Blizzard at least though. He bred a BB to a R.A.P.T.O.R. as far as I know. It’s obviously a blizzard, and why wouldn’t the tremper gene be there, if all animals in his project have been homozygous tremper from the start?

 

[Gazz]

The other thing to remember.. RAPTOR x RAPTOR does not always = RAPTOR. The majority of babies produced from that pairing were RAPTORs.. but I have hatched out APTORS with no red eye coloration from that pairing as well.. So it would make sense if you would be getting the same thing with DB x DB.

:main_huh:

Your ofcourse right that RAPTOR X RAPTOR don't alway = RAPTOR.But RAPTOR are a combo morph.And two trait expressed in RAPTOR's as far as i'm aware are a deffo from a RAPTOR to RAPTOR breeding it is Tremper albino and eclipse influance in varyed percentage in the eyes.So a Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB)-(Recessive,Recessive,Recessive) would alway = Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB) 100%.

Don't forgot, Ron uses the "Diablo Blanco" name to describe several varations of this morph

There is only one way to use the name Diablo blanco or its just pointless the leo HAS to express Tremper albino + eclipse + blizzard.Point blank or no point.The percentage of the eclipse expressed no matter how much or little in the eyes if it there it DB.And the shade of colour if it Blizzard no matter how white,yellow'etc it DB.It only need three main traits to be a DB and if it dosen't express them it's NOT a Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB).

 

[paulnj]

Awesome monitors! As for your animals with solid "black" eyes, if they are female maybe they are indeed red eyes, but very dark. Female incubated trempers get dark eyes at low temps sometimes.

 

[Gazz]

Gazz,

Ron descibes this gecko as an Xanthic Diablo Blanco. He swears that through selective breeding it will eventually (hopefully) produce all yellow eyes.

I paid Ron over $2k for this animal so I hope he's not bluffing. This male has also produced several pure white red-eyed DB's, yellow bodied Db's with red eyes, blancos with yellow eyes, white and yellow bodied geckos with black eclipse eyes.

Does anyone have a picture of another white gecko with black eyes? I though pure white geckos would only produce red eclipse eyes or albino eyes, or snake eyes?

The help is greatly appreciated.

I need to see way more evidence that xanthic is truely something new before concidering it other than a Talbino blizzard with pretty eyes.IMO you male is a Talbino eclipse(BB) HET eclipse.So as a result from breeding it to a Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB) you get Talbino blizzards and when you get these there eye can express*FALSE*eclipse a trait often seen in blizzards and even in albino form always VERY DARK black looking.The thing people also seem to forget is we have ALL seen RAPTOR's with VERY DARK EYES black looking.And if RAPTOR can express dark eyes so can Diablo blanco as the eye trait is the same gene.So your Talbino blizzards expressing dark eyes could be Talbino*false*eclipse blizzard(BB) or even Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB) it going to be fairly hard to ID them apart.

 

[preacherman]

"If you cross a DB male with a female raptor you will get all banded albinos that
are het for DB and Raptor. If you then bred these double hets together you will only get more DBs and banded hets."

The above statement is not correct. Diablo Blanco x R.A.P.T.O.R. will give you R.A.P.T.O.R.s that are het for Blizzard.

 

[JME]

I need to see way more evidence that xanthic is truely something new before concidering it other than a Talbino blizzard with pretty eyes.IMO you male is a Talbino eclipse(BB) HET eclipse.So as a result from breeding it to a Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB) you get Talbino blizzards and when you get these there eye can express*FALSE*eclipse a trait often seen in blizzards and even in albino form always VERY DARK black looking.The thing people also seem to forget is we have ALL seen RAPTOR's with VERY DARK EYES black looking.And if RAPTOR can express dark eyes so can Diablo blanco as the eye trait is the same gene.So your Talbino blizzards expressing dark eyes could be Talbino*false*eclipse blizzard(BB) or even Talbino eclipse blizzard(DB) it going to be fairly hard to ID them apart.

Gazz,

They are not false eclipse eyes. These are as solid as they get. I swear they where red when they hatched and was shocked to see black eyes when I checked them out a few days ago.

They where incubated at 82F to be females. I'm going to take a closer look tomorrow and see if they're dark red.

Two eggs just hatched from this pair yesterday. They both have red eyes. It will be interesting to see if they darken.

Thanks for clearing up "Talbino eclipse blizzard" as being a DB. I had no idea what you where talking about in your previous post.