Why do people breed enigmas?

[Gwendolyn Wolf]

I really don't understand what the motivation is behind breeding and creating more enigma geckos knowing they have neurological issues. As an owner of one that is having severe enigma syndrome issues I don't get why you would want to do that to another one.

I understand that not all of them develop the syndrome but taking the chance that it won't and then finding out that it does seems a bit cruel to me. I have a male with the enigma gene and I would never think of breeding him. He has to many issues and as of late at 4 years of age he is having feeding issues and i believe sight issues.

If someone could explain why breeders use them as a breeder I would very much like to know. I am by no means an expert so I am not claiming to be. Just asking is all

 

[Phoenix1115]

They throw in awesome colors and patterns. I think that's the only reason.

Are you familiar with ball pythons at all? The Spider morph of balls is basically equivalent to Enigmas, in the neuro issues area. But people breed them heavily for the visual benefits.

 

[Gwendolyn Wolf]

If that's all it is that seems an awfully cruel thing to do to an animal just because you like the colors.

 

[Phoenix1115]

Exactly lol

 

[iCandiBallPythons]

They throw in awesome colors and patterns. I think that's the only reason.

Are you familiar with ball pythons at all? The Spider morph of balls is basically equivalent to Enigmas, in the neuro issues area. But people breed them heavily for the visual benefits.

The "enigma syndrome," is quite a bit different than the spider wobble corkscrew. I have also never seen anything that concludes that the spider thing is neuro

 

[Gwendolyn Wolf]

My avatar is of my male enigma and he's becoming something of a special needs. I have to make sure he eats and have special food to feed him because he's so uncoordinated it is sad. Although I love him to pieces I would never wish what he's going through on another animal.

 

[Phoenix1115]

I'm not saying it's the same syndrome. Im saying that there is a specific morph of balls that causes problems in balls, like there is a specific morph that causes problems in leos.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

As I recall, there's already a pretty extensive thread on this. Most people there supported breeding them. Personally, I won't deal with anyone who breeds them. If it was a dog or a cat, it would be outlawed (or at least highly taboo) and considered horrendously cruel, but since it's a reptile, it's easier to ignore their suffering and go, "But look how pretty!111"

~Maggot

 

[Gwendolyn Wolf]

As I recall, there's already a pretty extensive thread on this. Most people there supported breeding them. Personally, I won't deal with anyone who breeds them. If it was a dog or a cat, it would be outlawed (or at least highly taboo) and considered horrendously cruel, but since it's a reptile, it's easier to ignore their suffering and go, "But look how pretty!111"

~Maggot

If there was another thread i apologize for starting this one. I should have looked harder.

Going through what I am with my male right now kind of makes me angry because the guy who sold him to me was supposed to be my friend and knew i was new to the species. He kind of took advantage of that I think. He also told me to breed Slither and I refused after all the research I did on that trait. I just saw how many were breeding them and wondered why.

 

[SC Geckos]

People breed Enigmas for the exact same reason they breed any of the other morphs, because of what the genes do to colors and/or patterns. It does amazing things in that aspect. However, I personally don't like or agree with breeding animals that you know will have issues, its just a matter of how severe the issues will be.
I have read that a few breeders are trying to take Enigmas with "less" of an issue and out cross them in an attempt to "strengthen" the morph. Weather this has any chance of working.... I don't believe so but I am not a genetics expert by any stretch.

Here is a link to a past thread on the subject that started several years ago.
http://geckoforums.net/f125-morphs-genetics/30000.htm

 

[Newworlddragons]

Tons of high end pure bred dogs have common issues that are breed specific as well. It isn't outlawed...pugs, dalmations, weimaraners.

 

[ImNotYogi]

People often give enhanced colors/patterns as the reason they breed/buy enigmas. They also have mentioned that the "enigma gene" can be "out crossed" of that particular morph. I'm not a geneticist and do not understand how you can out cross a gene if ALL enigmas have the potential to show symptoms of ES. No one has ever bothered explaining that to me even in the most basic terms so I doubt the knowledge many of these breeders have on genetics. And a few breeders have said on a different thread that breeding one or two enigmas that show little to no symptoms doesn't guarantee that the offspring won't. So it really sounds like a crap shoot on whether or not a leo will show signs and how severe they'll be.
Personally I won't buy from a breeder who sells enigmas because of this.

 

[SC Geckos]

Tons of high end pure bred dogs have common issues that are breed specific as well. It isn't outlawed...pugs, dalmations, weimaraners.

That is true, but if there was a dog breed that spun around in circles, had sometimes severe balance issues and in some cases had to be hand fed in order to eat at all (just to name a few issues) I bet there would not be any dog breeders producing them.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Tons of high end pure bred dogs have common issues that are breed specific as well. It isn't outlawed...pugs, dalmations, weimaraners.

If there is a breed of dog that presents 100% of the time with neurological problems that result in spinning, death rolls, stargazing, stumbling, inability to eat or do basic bodily functions, and fits that could result in death, please, do let me know. I'm pretty sure there aren't though.

There are some serious issues that present in certain lineages of certain breeds of horses that, while I'm not sure if they're actually outlawed, any that carry genes that are known to cause the syndromes aren't allowed to be registered and no one would support breeding them.

~Maggot

 

[SC Geckos]

All this being said, Unfortunately, if there is a demand for these animals there will always be someone out there that will try and supply them. If nobody wanted Enigmas then very few people would continue to breed them.

 

[ImNotYogi]

Tons of high end pure bred dogs have common issues that are breed specific as well. It isn't outlawed...pugs, dalmations, weimaraners.

That's true. Not only are the symptoms of these health issues very different from the ones enigmas (can) face but there's a lot more understanding of what causes/exasperates these issues in dogs. Canine genetics are arguably better known overall than a leopard gecko as well. And there's treatment for it whether it's surgery, medications, or modifications to their day-to-day life. The absolute most I've ever read about caring for an afflicted enigma is "minimize stress". Caring for reptiles just isn't held in the same regard as dogs and cats.

How popular do you really think a dog breed will be if it showed the same symptoms and had the same treatment options as an enigma?

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

People who breed Enigmas do it for the Look and Money. When people are not fully informed (which more people are oblivious to the morph than you would imagine) on the downside to the morph then those geckos are an easy sell because of how impressive some of the Enigmas look. I did breed them years ago and after a very short time couldn't continue to do so because the animals quality of life was no where near what I wanted to put them through

 

[Gwendolyn Wolf]

I did breed them years ago and after a very short time couldn't continue to do so because the animals quality of life was no where near what I wanted to put them through

Nice to hear.

 

[leezard]

People who breed Enigmas do it for the Look and Money. When people are not fully informed (which more people are oblivious to the morph than you would imagine) on the downside to the morph then those geckos are an easy sell because of how impressive some of the Enigmas look. I did breed them years ago and after a very short time couldn't continue to do so because the animals quality of life was no where near what I wanted to put them through

I give you immense credit for this Travis, however there are a number of breeders still under the impression they can breed these undesirable traits out of them. Now this is a noble effort but, when do they realize it can't be done 5ys, 10yrs, 15, 20? I have seen the argument it has not been given enough time. How long do they have to suffer to realize it's (in my belief) heading down a dead end. Yes there has been some occasional improvement but then we also see NONE at all.

Progress requires constant improvement (no matter how minimal) and from what I have seen this is NOT happening. The proof to this point, is that the failure rate is much higher than the success rate. From all scientific studies I have ever seen this is proof that this will not end up being successful.

 

[iCandiBallPythons]

I'm not saying it's the same syndrome. Im saying that there is a specific morph of balls that causes problems in balls, like there is a specific morph that causes problems in leos.

It's still nothing you can really use as a comparison to an enigma. Most enigmas are a basket case, which is not the same as with spider or spider combos. So NO you shouldnt compare the 2 in anyway.

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