Why do people breed enigmas?

[Embrace Calamity]

I give you immense credit for this Travis, however there are a number of breeders still under the impression they can breed these undesirable traits out of them. Now this is a noble effort but, when do they realize it can't be done 5ys, 10yrs, 15, 20? I have seen the argument it has not been given enough time. How long do they have to suffer to realize it's (in my belief) heading down a dead end. Yes there has been some occasional improvement but then we also see NONE at all.

Progress requires constant improvement (no matter how minimal) and from what I have seen this is NOT happening. The proof to this point, is that the failure rate is much higher than the success rate. From all scientific studies I have ever seen this is proof that this will not end up being successful.

As I recall, Bell doesn't even breed them anymore, right? I know someone who produced over 200 of them, and after every single one showed symptoms, he fed them to his monitors and stopped breeding them. It's his opinion that anyone who says they have an Enigma that shows no symptoms is either delusional or just in denial.

~Maggot

 

[Phoenix1115]

It's still nothing you can really use as a comparison to an enigma. Most enigmas are a basket case, which is not the same as with spider or spider combos. So NO you shouldnt compare the 2 in anyway.

You're completely missing my point but nevermind it doesn't matter.

Also, as for the horse thing, there is a syndrome in some lines of Quarter Horses that causes them to have "slippery joint" which makes them really good at stuff like barrel racing. So people specifically breed for that disease so they have good show horses, but only for a few years when they'll have to be put down because of terrible joint problems. Some people often do things for greed and don't care about the well being of the animal, as I believe is the same case for Enigmas

(Note: I'm not saying enigma leopards are the same as quarter horses, because obviously they aren't, I'm just using it as a comparison as to why people do things that aren't always the best for animals.)

 

[katie_]

People pump chickens and other animals full of hormones to increase productivity and breast size.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

You're completely missing my point but nevermind it doesn't matter.

Also, as for the horse thing, there is a syndrome in some lines of Quarter Horses that causes them to have "slippery joint" which makes them really good at stuff like barrel racing. So people specifically breed for that disease so they have good show horses, but only for a few years when they'll have to be put down because of terrible joint problems. Some people often do things for greed and don't care about the well being of the animal, as I believe is the same case for Enigmas

(Note: I'm not saying enigma leopards are the same as quarter horses, because obviously they aren't, I'm just using it as a comparison as to why people do things that aren't always the best for animals.)

That's interesting. I actually didn't know about that disease. I was referring to HERDA in my example, but QHs and Paints do seem to have an awful lot of genetic disorders. People are just greedy pricks all around. =/

~Maggot

 

[pmkent1]

As I recall, Bell doesn't even breed them anymore, right? I know someone who produced over 200 of them, and after every single one showed symptoms, he fed them to his monitors and stopped breeding them. It's his opinion that anyone who says they have an Enigma that shows no symptoms is either delusional or just in denial.

~Maggot

Id say that they might have one that hasnt YET shown signs. There are lots of examples of some that were by all accounts fine and then took a turn for the worst. I havent yet heard of a case where theyve gone through an entire lifecycle without a problem (connected to ES) of some kind.

Me personally, I stopped working with them after last year (before I knew what ES was really about). I bred them only last year and morally I cant continue that and keep a clear conscience. I saw first hand the varying degrees of ES, from fully functional to completely unable to function, and that was plenty for me to not continue. Even the ones that seemed fine eventually developed problems. As pretty as they can be its just not worth perpetuating the problem.

 

[pmkent1]

Especially for the sake of the animals.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Id say that they might have one that hasnt YET shown signs. There are lots of examples of some that were by all accounts fine and then took a turn for the worst. I havent yet heard of a case where theyve gone through an entire lifecycle without a problem (connected to ES) of some kind.

Me personally, I stopped working with them after last year (before I knew what ES was really about). I bred them only last year and morally I cant continue that and keep a clear conscience. I saw first hand the varying degrees of ES, from fully functional to completely unable to function, and that was plenty for me to not continue. Even the ones that seemed fine eventually developed problems. As pretty as they can be its just not worth perpetuating the problem.

I think his opinion was that they all develop symptoms very early (as opposed to some people who claim they have ones that are several years old with no issues). I'm not sure if that's true or not. I am always slightly amused when people say that they can live full lives just fine when the morph was only produced in 2006, so none of them have reached even half their full life expectancy. I pointed that out to someone and they tried to say that what they meant when they said "full" lives was simply without severe issues, not of normal lifespan.

I'm no good with morphs because they don't interest me all that much, but eclipses look very similar to enigmas to me. At least the ones I've seen. When I've been browsing through geckos, I'll often see one I think is an enigma and it's listed as an eclipse. Unless eclipse is just another word for an enigma and I don't know about it.

~Maggot

 

[pmkent1]

I am always slightly amused when people say that they can live full lives just fine when the morph was only produced in 2006, so none of them have reached even half their full life expectancy. I pointed that out to someone and they tried to say that what they meant when they said "full" lives was simply without severe issues, not of normal lifespan.

~Maggot

lol.. Yep.

With respect to eclipses/enigmas. Theyre two separate morphs. A lot of eclipses have a "patternless" trait along with them but for the most part its and eye pigment trait.

 

[acpart]

I also got an enigma a few years ago with intent to breed. Fortunately for me she didn't become gravid and did develop problems. She now lives with the retired breeder females and that's where she'll stay (but she is really pretty).

Aliza

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

There is a difference between a disease which effects a specific region/aspect of the animal and a defect which is systemic. Enigma has to have some form of neurological effect as their wobbling and orientation confusion are direct results from it. I have heard for a LONG time people saying their Enigma doesn't express the syndrome (I was guilty of assuming this a few years ago...prior to my further understanding of the morph) but this to me is completely false. Please excuse my analogy and I have a family member with the disease so I know the difficulty of helping someone with it, but I compare Enigma to Autism. There are some low expression and high expression and even variations of which that "enhance" certain functions or capabilities (such as Aspergers). They are both a neurological defect which effect the ability to perform seemingly normal tasks (shed, eat, drink, etc.). Those who think you can "breed it out" have irrational reasoning and an obvious concern for their own personal gains over the animals health. Unlike Autism, we can prevent producing the defect in our animals.

A HUGE part of the problem is that so many "big" breeders (both in name reputation and quantity producers) continue to produce, advertise, and sell this mutation. Capitalizing on a defect which cripples the animals quality of life shows character of the breeder.