Any ideas? I call it freak

[Dog Shrink]

It was a debate of ethics Jordan and both enigmas and crossing albinos was brought up so...

 

[Jordan]

sorry, it did start about crossing albinos though. lol

 

[Desdemona]

Interesting thread! I love genetics, though I am not currently breeding anything (and won't for a long time, I move to much). Anyways, if a breeder accurately labels what he has, or only sells such offspring to non-breeders then is it such a bad thing. As a breeder you should really know what your buying anyways. Not everyone who buys a gecko is going to breed it and some want a single odd looking pet. If there is no physical deformities attributed to the paring than how is it unethical? Unethical would be breeding one thing and selling it as another.

I was recently deep in the rat world and you have to be very cautious there, but because of unseen genetic defects.

So, is albino-ism in Geckos a cover-up gene or not? I couldn't really tell from the thread. Cover-up and recessive genes can be fun sometimes!

 

[Dog Shrink]

What makes crossing the albino strains unethical is the unwritten code of breeder ethics, like in dogs, great danes come in 4 recognized colors, BUT the COE says that you are to only breed brindle to fawn, and black, bue and harlequin/mantel to each other. In other words no blacks in the brown pool and no brown inthe black pool. People decided to do unethical breedings now we have Merle... a genetic freak that isn't a recognized show-able color that with it comes the whole myriad of merle issues such as blindness deafness etc. from teh double merle gene (breeding 2 merles together). Sure you can sell the merle pups to a pet buyer, but there is no guarantee that they won't breed that dog (as we have well seen by the drastic upswing in merle danes and back yard breeders), same thing with leos.

Just because you sell an unethically bred leo to a pet buyer there is no guarantee that says taht person won't breed it, or even keep it for it's entire life, but sells it to some one else, then THAT person breeds it... it's perpetual. People are inhearantly crappy self centered bastards who's ultimate goal is to make money and if it comes off killing ethics or bastardizing a long standing accepted practice then that is what they will do. A code of ethics is not douping the buyer by misrepresenting what they are buying, that's just 1 small part of it. It all goes back to the sperm and the egg where ethics is concerned imo.

 

[T-ReXx]

Interesting thread! I love genetics, though I am not currently breeding anything (and won't for a long time, I move to much). Anyways, if a breeder accurately labels what he has, or only sells such offspring to non-breeders then is it such a bad thing. As a breeder you should really know what your buying anyways. Not everyone who buys a gecko is going to breed it and some want a single odd looking pet. If there is no physical deformities attributed to the paring than how is it unethical? Unethical would be breeding one thing and selling it as another.

I was recently deep in the rat world and you have to be very cautious there, but because of unseen genetic defects.

So, is albino-ism in Geckos a cover-up gene or not? I couldn't really tell from the thread. Cover-up and recessive genes can be fun sometimes!

Kel pretty much said it but I'm going to add my part.

There is absolutely NO WAY to ensure an animal you have produced will never be bred outside of surgical sterilization. Leopard geckos can live 20 years or more, females can produce eggs well into their teens and males can breed indefinately. How many people keep the gecko for that span of time? And realistically, most people who keep leopard geckos for any amount of time consider breeding. It's usually only a matter of time.

As a breeder, it is your ethical responsibility to only produce animals that are as genetically sound and pure as possible. There's no reason to make "mutts" when there are already plenty of pure animals that have trouble finding homes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "cover up" gene. If you mean if an albino animal can visually mask other traits in the animal, then yes, in some cases it can (snows for example, some snow albinos can be difficult to tell from regular albinos).

 

[Desdemona]

Do they have Leo shows? Part of the ethics there would be to only buy from known ethical breeders. I personally think there is a different between that and hobby breeders. Of course, my experience is coming from rodent world where of course the issues will be different there. They have the genetics broken down really well (especially in dwarf hamsters where your really limited). The only ethics I ever heard about was the X + X = dead babies.

Whenever I do decide to breed, if I do stick with this species, I will have a lot to learn!

 

[T-ReXx]

There are no leopard gecko specific shows in my knowledge. There are general reptile shows, the amount of leopard geckos available can vary per show, but they are usually there.

I agree, there is a difference between hobby and professional breeders. However, every professional breeder started off as a hobbyist at some point. Part of developing a good reputation in the reptile world(and reputation can make or break your business, it's VERY important) is to start off on the right foot. That means following the code of ethics dictated by the community as a whole.

 

[noahsark31]

Well, Thanks to those that responded to my question. Both for the good and bad. My goal was never to do anything with the albino lines in this project. I feel the same as many of you do. When, I sell any of these babies they will be marked appropriately. Poss hets and all. I will have not and will not lie about any genetics. It is up to each breeder to find and buy what they see fit for their projects. I am not really worried about the rest because I do this for fun. I love keeping and breeding reptiles. I have been doing it for yrs and will continue to do so. There is no excitement compared to seeing a little lizzard crawl out of the egg.

 

[noahsark31]

The babies will all be called het 'freaks' just for you kieth.

 

[Jordan]

Well, Thanks to those that responded to my question. Both for the good and bad. My goal was never to do anything with the albino lines in this project. I feel the same as many of you do. When, I sell any of these babies they will be marked appropriately. Poss hets and all. I will have not and will not lie about any genetics. It is up to each breeder to find and buy what they see fit for their projects. I am not really worried about the rest because I do this for fun. I love keeping and breeding reptiles. I have been doing it for yrs and will continue to do so. There is no excitement compared to seeing a little lizzard crawl out of the egg.

if you wasnt doing anything with the albino lines, then shouldnt you have bred some animals without the albino genes then?
And also i dont think its gonna be easy to sell animals marked het for tremper and bell.
And sure breedings got to be fun, but there are still rules to follow.
When you play football or any sport, its for fun. But its not as fun when the rules start to get broken.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Good football analogy Jordan, and I thought all leos had some strain of albino in there somewhere? Don't they all stem from either tremper, bell or las vegas?

 

[Jordan]

Good football analogy Jordan, and I thought all leos had some strain of albino in there somewhere? Don't they all stem from either tremper, bell or las vegas?

Well i suppose techincally they all stemmed from normals years ago. But albinos have been worked with so much that yes a lot of geckos carry an albino gene. But id still say there's plenty without albino in them.

 

[Dog Shrink]

How do you know which don't have any albino gene in them?

 

[T-ReXx]

How do you know which don't have any albino gene in them?

You have to test breed. A het animal bred to an albino will produce 50% visual albino animals.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Duh the obvious answer right Ted I was more looking for if specific morphs that don't require the albino to make them.

 

[T-ReXx]

Duh the obvious answer right Ted I was more looking for if specific morphs that don't require the albino to make them.

Not sure what you mean, You mean like a combo morph that doesn't include an albino gene? Like oh, a Blackhole for example?(Mack snow eclipse enigma) It's the same method, test breed to a visual albino animal.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Yes that is what I mean. A morph that doesn't require an albino to make it.

 

[T-ReXx]

Yes that is what I mean. A morph that doesn't require an albino to make it.

You use animals that don't have the albino genes in them. They're are pure eclipse, enigma, snow, etc. animals on the market. These animals are produced by outcrossing the albino genes out. For example, how to get a pure eclipse from a raptor and a normal with no hets:

season one: breed raptorX normal. All offspring are 100% het eclipse and 100% het tremper.

season two: Cross the offspring together. Some of these will be albinos, and some of them will be raptors, and some of them will be eclipse possible het tremper. You want the eclipse possible het trempers.

season three: Cross the eclipse possible het trempers to the original raptor animal(or any visually tremper animal really) and see what you get. All of the offspring will be either 100% het tremper, or visual trempers. If no albino offspring are produced, the animal is free of the albino gene.

season four: most breeders will retest the eclipse offspring from season two once more to tremper animals to be sure they aren't het.

There are other ways to do it, and some faster, but this is an example of how to outcross the albino gene out with one pair of animals. It also assumes the animals are already free of other hets like bell or rainwater, and if they came from a respectable breeder they should be.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Gotcha. That makes complete sense. Not much different from mammals really then when it comes to line breeding standards. Is it usually 4-5 generations before the albino gene can be bred out and have a het free critter?

 

[T-ReXx]

Usually minimum 4, unless you start with a possible het X possible het, then you might get lucky and get one in the first gen, it would still be at least one more gen to prove it out.