Any ideas? I call it freak

[ddkgeckos]

I see your point, there is no proof that crossing albino strains proves to be unhealthy for the offspring.

However, I must say that I am compleatly against this practice, as most others are as well, for the reasons that have already been stated in regards to accuracy vs. human error... as well as the fact that there is just NO NEED for it.

But at the risk of going off topic (I guess we kind of already have), what evidence do you have that shows the enigma x enigma combination does, in fact, produce damaged and irregular offspring MORE SO than a non-enigma x enigma combination? Or is what you're saying that enigmas shouldn't be bred at all?

Just trying to understand.

Like i have said i am not for breeding albino strains in one animal but i dont see why having a mack snow tremper het bell for example is a problem aslong as you only breed it to one other strain of albino.thus knowing what your albino will be...if that makes sense

As for the enigma thing i just feel that if you breed enigma x enigma your are going to get more hatchling enigmas therefore increasing the chances of getting ones with the issues again its my philosophy to use common sense before anything else. I do breed enigmas and i am not against it aslong as its done with care and control.

Unfortunately not everyone has common sense which is why debates like this exsist in the first place.

 

[JordanAng420]

As for the enigma thing i just feel that if you breed enigma x enigma your are going to get more hatchling enigmas therefore increasing the chances of getting ones with the issues again its my philosophy to use common sense before anything else. I do breed enigmas and i am not against it aslong as its done with care and control.

I breed enigmas as well. I've hatched babies that are compleatly normal, that eventually developed the syndrome, i've hatched babies that are severely affected by the synodrome that suddenly deccided to become normal. I've hatched babies that hatched with symptoms, and never became normal and i've hatched babies that never once showed any symptoms of the "disease"

How is the philosophy of breeding albino type 1 x albino type 2 better than breeding enigma x enigma? Where are the scientific results?

IMO, it's all just speculation.

 

[T-ReXx]

Like i have said i am not for breeding albino strains in one animal but i dont see why having a mack snow tremper het bell for example is a problem aslong as you only breed it to one other strain of albino.thus knowing what your albino will be...if that makes sense

As for the enigma thing i just feel that if you breed enigma x enigma your are going to get more hatchling enigmas therefore increasing the chances of getting ones with the issues again its my philosophy to use common sense before anything else. I do breed enigmas and i am not against it aslong as its done with care and control.

Unfortunately not everyone has common sense which is why debates like this exsist in the first place.

The problem with that example is that you will have no idea which offspring are het for the other albino strain. When those animals are released into the hobby the next owner is not going to have any idea what the genetics of that animal is unless you let them know that is a "possible het XYZ" and even if you do tell them that, they will still have to test breed the animal to see what it really is. And that's creating more work for the next guy, and potentially releasing animals that may not be sold by others for what they really are. "Hidden genes" are not something most serious breeders want in their animals. I for one would never buy an animal that was a tremper possible het bell for example, and I can pretty safely say that any other serious leopard gecko breeder will say the same thing.

On the enigma issue, I will agree with you. Enigma X enigma has been known to cause a higher percentage of either deformed hatchlings, egg death, or signs of the "syndrome." Crossing two enigma animals carries those risks, and I don't see the worth in taking them when the dominant gene can easily be outcrossed into healthy, non enigma animals.

 

[ddkgeckos]

I breed enigmas as well. I've hatched babies that are compleatly normal, that eventually developed the syndrome, i've hatched babies that are severely affected by the synodrome that suddenly deccided to become normal. I've hatched babies that hatched with symptoms, and never became normal and i've hatched babies that never once showed any symptoms of the "disease"

How is the philosophy of breeding albino type 1 x albino type 2 better than breeding enigma x enigma? Where are the scientific results?

IMO, it's all just speculation.

Its not about science its about odds. If you breed a 1copy enigma to say mack snow you will get some enigmas and some none enigmas a % of the enigmas may show the issues. If you breed enigma x enigma you will get a higher % of enigma offspring which is going to increase the chances of having enigmas with the issues.

 

[JordanAng420]

Ok...I am woman enough to admit i'm wrong when I am.

But how does one educate themselves as far as the risks of enigma x enigma, short of breeding the combination themselves? I haven't done the combination myself, but if I wasn't a member of this forum, I wouldn't know that this is a no-no

 

[ddkgeckos]

Ok...I am woman enough to admit i'm wrong when I am.

But how does one educate themselves as far as the risks of enigma x enigma, short of breeding the combination themselves? I haven't done the combination myself, but if I wasn't a member of this forum, I wouldn't know that this is a no-no

Because its pretty odvious, the more enigmas you produce the more chance of having ones with the issues.

 

[JordanAng420]

Because its pretty odvious, the more enigmas you produce the more chance of having ones with the issues.

I understand but...something doesn't sit well with me.

WHY do the enigmas produce more offspring that are affected? WHY is it different from albino type 1 x albino type 2?

Who has done these scientific studies?

 

[ddkgeckos]

I understand but...something doesn't sit well with me.

WHY do the enigmas produce more offspring that are affected? WHY is it different from albino type 1 x albino type 2?

Who has done these scientific studies?

Nobody knows why a enigma is the way it is thats part of the reason why its called a enigma.Its still a relatively new morph. Only enigmas have these issues no other morph has them.It is something that is still being learned about and will be a while before we know if we ever know what causes it.

Albinos have no issues apart from poor vision and light sensitivity so breeding two albinos of different types together dosent produce unhealthy leos like breeding enigmas may do..

 

[Dog Shrink]

Albinos have no issues apart from poor vision and light sensitivity so breeding two albinos of different types together dosent produce unhealthy leos like breeding enigmas may do..

Wouldn't this then by your theory mean that breeding 2 albinos together and adding more of a % of the albino dna into that 1 animal increase it's chances for visual issues such as extreme light sensitivity, blindness, or extreme visual imparement to the point of impacting quality of life?

 

[ddkgeckos]

Wouldn't this then by your theory mean that breeding 2 albinos together and adding more of a % of the albino dna into that 1 animal increase it's chances for visual issues such as extreme light sensitivity, blindness, or extreme visual imparement to the point of impacting quality of life?

But as ive already said should we breeding albinos at all? I have never said that breeding different types of albinos into one animal should be done i have said that people get annoyed by it yet most of these people are ok with breeding enigmas. for me having a gecko that is het for tremper and bell or having a enigma that has bad issues is a no brainer. Theres a lot of hypocrisy going on with breeding leos unfortunately its not about the well being of the gecko its mainly about what will be worth more money. If this was not the case the enigma would of been culled straight away along with the albinos now theres rumours of a 4th albino strain that ron tremper is apparently perfecting?? Its ridiculous..

 

[Dog Shrink]

I wasn't implying crossing the albino morphs but just say 2 regular trempers or bells staying with in their own morph, Having a double albino should, in theory, cause just as many possible issues as having a double enigma according to your theory right?

For the op... I hope this debate hasn't taken away from finding out what your lil freak is.

 

[ddkgeckos]

I wasn't implying crossing the albino morphs but just say 2 regular trempers or bells staying with in their own morph, Having a double albino should, in theory, cause just as many possible issues as having a double enigma according to your theory right?

For the op... I hope this debate hasn't taken away from finding out what your lil freak is.

Its not a theory its a fact a 2 copy enigma will produce more enigmas therefore increasing the chance of having enigmas with issues. So to answer your question yes i suppose breeding two hom trempers together will produce more trempers therefore having more with bad eyesight etc but i dont think you can compare the issues of a enigma with that of a albino.

 

[T-ReXx]

Aside from the "numbers game" of producing more enigma animals that increases the odds of creating animals that have neurological defects, the main reason enigmaXenigma is a bad idea is the simple fact that two copy enigmas either a) tend to die either in egg or shortly after hatching b) are much more likely to have deformities, or c) are much more likely to fail to thrive. It's a dominant morph and there is absolutely no reason to cross enigma animals together.

I don't feel that it's something you can compare to crossing albinos. Crossing enigmas causes visible, documented, quality of life impeding defects. No matter the phenotype the animal will still likely have issues. With albinos, it's an ethics issue. There's no documentation that crossing albinos causes any life or quality of life threatening defects in the offspring. What it DOES do is create animals that are extremely difficult to incorporate into breeding projects and affects the leopard gecko genetic population as a whole.

Personally, I don't know anyone who's intentionally crossing enigmas. I thought the whole issue with that was already fairly well known, but I suppose I was wrong.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Just like the issue of not crossing the albino strains is also a well known no no but apparently it's being done. When ethics compete with money or putting the newest odd morph out there, ethics always loses. IMO it's the breeder that maintains their ethics and gets the same job done with out cutting corners that I'll give my money to.

 

[Jordan]

wow. alots happened in this thread since i was last here. lol.

in terms of breeding albino's. breed a tremper to a bell and you get double hets.
Then if you breed them to anything you dont know who's het for what and what albino strain any later generation animal is.
You said, that if you do het tremper het bell x bell then you know the offspring is bell? ... well what if people had all suddenly decided it was okay to breed different albinos. that bell could be het for tremper and youd never know...
So why release animals like this into the market for breeders to fall over and confuse themselves over?
Unless your going to keep literally every single generation of animals that comes from the original crossing of the albinos then it shouldnt be done.
My opinion.

 

[Keith N]

Can you please label your leos het "freak" so I know which ones to stay way from. :main_thumbsup:

 

[fishyfan]

Maybe your "unknown" gecko is just a blizzard. I think some blizzards tend to show that type of pattern as hatchlings...

 

[fl_orchidslave]

I have a morph question. Im not sure of what these are. I have produced 4 to date. Sire is a jungle snow poss het bell. Dam is a snow blizzard het tremper. Here is what has been produced this yr from that pair. 3 Super snows, 4 FREAKS, 2 snow or super snow blizzards, 1 snow. The freaks look like patternless but there is no patternless gene in them. Also if they are somehow patternless then the adults had both the patternelss and blizzard genes in them. This is highly un likely because the adults are form 2 different breeders, one here in STL and one in California I believe. They are deffinately snows but what else? I will be test breeding the 42 g male to a patternless female and a BB female soon. I am very excited to see what I get. The adult has a pale yellow and at times looks lime green with the pattern of a baby patternless. The reason im leaning towards something new is the pattern is still there and no patterneless genes involved. All of the baby freaks looked similar when hatched. All white with a dark grey/ black pattern then change with each shed.

Any Ideas?
Cody
[email protected]

This is just a mess. What is planned for these offspring? As far as test breeding, it will produce a lot of mutts that will damage the gene pool for others. Your reputation will go downhill fast among serious hobbyists. Why not go ahead and sell one and use that money to purchase another with a more compatible set of genes?

 

[roger]

My thought on crossing the albino strains was more of a I didn't think you wanted a double albino gene moreso than id issues. Can a double albino gene cause problems like say in dogs the double merle gene can cause deafness and blindness? Is there genetic defect that can come from "too much" albino?

Also I'm against breeding enigmas... I think ANY morph that shows a propencity for a life altering defect should absolutely NOT be bred regardless of what it adds to the color morph pool. However there is always an acception, if an enigma hasn't shown evidence of the syndrom for I think at lerast 4-5 generation then maybe... MAYBE it could be considered defect free and possibly bred but, I wouldn't buy it simply because of the possibility, I'd be the one to get the one out of 5 generations that DID show symptoms with my luck.

I agree Dogshrink, I'm kinda scratching my head with all the talk of not crossing strains and then no one outraged by breeding enigmas..I think ppl should be more concerned with intentional breeding of animals that show physical defects.there is no prove that ive seen where crossing albino strains causes defects but I hear more ppl arguing against crossing albino strains..Kinda hypocrital no ??

 

[Jordan]

I agree Dogshrink, I'm kinda scratching my head with all the talk of not crossing strains and then no one outraged by breeding enigmas..I think ppl should be more concerned with intentional breeding of animals that show physical defects.there is no prove that ive seen where crossing albino strains causes defects but I hear more ppl arguing against crossing albino strains..Kinda hypocrital no ??

Well, most breeder ARE kinda annoyed about enigmas being bred. But were also annoyed about crossing albino strains. And this topic is about crossing albino strains... thats why thats being argued about right now and not enigmas.

This is just a mess. What is planned for these offspring? As far as test breeding, it will produce a lot of mutts that will damage the gene pool for others. Your reputation will go downhill fast among serious hobbyists. Why not go ahead and sell one and use that money to purchase another with a more compatible set of genes?

+1, what a silly pairing as i said earlier.
What were you even breeding for? ...
i agree, buy something that will work as a better pairing and give the offspring some beter genetics.