Cleaning of leo enclosures

[Tony C]

where did you get your info on this?

also i got my info from a reptile and avian vet (two different veterinarians) and they suggested Chlorhexidine over the Quatricide because of safety reasons. shoot even a human doctor suggested Chlorhexidine over Quatricide. Reason being the toxicity factor in all three cases.

I ran it by Ed K. over on Dendroboard, and he said that 10% bleach is really the only amphibian safe disinfectant, that quaternary ammonium products leave a surfactant residue behind which is unsafe.

 

[Vegas_Eric]

How about Chlorhexidine Gluconate? I hear people spraying down their tubs with it, let it soak for a few minutes and then wiping it clean. Once it's dry, they add substrate, water and calcium dishes, put their leo's back in and they are ready to go.

With Bleach, you really have to make sure you rinse the tub clean and if Quat left a residue, wouldn't you get rid of it by rinsing the tub out a few times just like you would have to do with bleach?

Please advise,

Eric

I ran it by Ed K. over on Dendroboard, and he said that 10% bleach is really the only amphibian safe disinfectant, that quaternary ammonium products leave a surfactant residue behind which is unsafe.

 

[robin]

I ran it by Ed K. over on Dendroboard, and he said that 10% bleach is really the only amphibian safe disinfectant, that quaternary ammonium products leave a surfactant residue behind which is unsafe.

yeah quats aren't as safe as people think they are. they can be rather harsh and toxic. they have to be rinsed thoroughly like very thoroughly to remove any residue.

 

[robin]

How about Chlorhexidine Gluconate? I hear people spraying down their tubs with it, let it soak for a few minutes and then wiping it clean. Once it's dry, they add substrate, water and calcium dishes, put their leo's back in and they are ready to go.

With Bleach, you really have to make sure you rinse the tub clean and if Quat left a residue, wouldn't you get rid of it by rinsing the tub out a few times just like you would have to do with bleach?

Please advise,

Eric

for geckos chlorhexidine works fantastic and is very safe!

 

[Designer Geckos]

I'm not Ray, but I used to use Rocal exclusively. Since my husband worked at the zoo he was always able to bring some from there. I didn't care for it because from what I was told you had to rinse the area after using it.

I've personally used Novalsan for years with excellent results.

Rocal is good, Nolvasan is excellent, alhtough not nearly as broad based in effectiveness as Quatricide, particularly for viruses, mold, fungus, etc. I understand many here thinking Quat is toxic based on your vets input. I would suggest using what you are comfortable using based on the input you get from your professionals.

Now, having said all that, again, I have been involved in cancer research for MANY years. Our research often involves immune compromised animals that are very fragile, have cancer, and are on various compounds to treat their cancer. So, you cannot find a more fragile creature. We have used Quat exclusively in these labs, with zero effects on these animals....with full FDA input. I would think this is a much better clinical-type trial, over many years, than a vet who likely has very minimal experience in the clinic with Quats. We also of course use Quat in our gecko colony with zero side effects, diluted 1:256.

Use what you feel you are comfortable with. If bleach or Nolvasan is your preference, then good luck. They are fine disinfectants as well.

 

[robin]

Rocal is good, Nolvasan is excellent, alhtough not nearly as broad based in effectiveness as Quatricide, particularly for viruses, mold, fungus, etc. I understand many here thinking Quat is toxic based on your vets input. I would suggest using what you are comfortable using based on the input you get from your professionals.

Now, having said all that, again, I have been involved in cancer research for MANY years. Our research often involves immune compromised animals that are very fragile, have cancer, and are on various compounds to treat their cancer. So, you cannot find a more fragile creature. We have used Quat exclusively in these labs, with zero effects on these animals....with full FDA input. I would think this is a much better clinical-type trial, over many years, than a vet who likely has very minimal experience in the clinic with Quats. We also of course use Quat in our gecko colony with zero side effects, diluted 1:256.

Use what you feel you are comfortable with. If bleach or Nolvasan is your preference, then good luck. They are fine disinfectants as well.

were all of your animals mammals? even though immune compromised mammals are completely different than reptiles. we look at things that are ok for mammals and base that on what to use for reptiles. reptiles and amphibian systems are completely different.

lets says chemical "a" is used on humans. if it gets in the system somehow the human body is able to filter it thought the liver or kidneys (humans are considered more complex creatures heh) but reptiles and amphibians get into contacts with chemical "a" but they have the inability to filter chemical "a" because their less complex liver and kidney function. or lets say they (reptiles and amphibians) absorbs it through their skin and it is toxic to them, when as if it came into contact with human skin tissue it could be wiped off with no ill effects.

i personally i would rather be safe by the word of a educated, experienced long time breeder and keeper and reptile vet than rely simply on book based facts

 

[KelliH]

Use what you feel you are comfortable with. If bleach or Nolvasan is your preference, then good luck. They are fine disinfectants as well.

Absolutely good advice there, Ray! Whatever a keeper is most comfortable using and has good results with is the thing to use. :main_thumbsup:

 

[SFgeckos]

Great thread topic! I agree with all the comments and wanted to share some basic information with forum members.

Roccal-D plus and Quatricide very similar and if used correctly are both very effective. The active ingredients can be compared below:

Roccal-D plus:
Active Ingredient(s)
Didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride
9.2%
Alkyl (C12, 61%; C14, 23%; C16, 11%; C18, 2.5%; C8 & C10, 2.5%)
dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride
9.2%
Alkyl (C12, 40%; C14, 50%; C16, 10%) dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride
4.6%
bis-n-tributyltin oxide
1.0%
Inert Ingredients:
76.0%

Active ingredients in Quatricide: (cut and paste)

http://www.kellysolutions.com/erene...ISINFECTANT_10_25_2005_11_55_48_AMSecured.Pdf

For Toxicity information please scroll down on the links below:
Both fall under the category of "acute hazard warning label" 1 Danger
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Docs/ref_products.html#EPAWarning

Quatricide
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00850300011&DIST_NR=039565#Ingredients

Roccal
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00102300066&DIST_NR=001023

Here's some reading info with the reference below:

Disinfectants Useful Around Reptiles.
From the chapter Therapeutics, by Roger J. Klingenberg, DVM. In, Reptile Medicine and Surgery, Douglas R. Mader, DVM, editor. 1996, WB Saunders Co.:

As part of the comprehensive therapeutic plan, the practitioner should make recommendations concerning the hygiene of the reptile's environment. Improper sanitation, including inadequate disinfection, is commonly associated with health problems. The practitioner needs to stress to the owner the importance of proper disinfection and not merely cleaning.

Cleaning refers to the physical removal of organic debris. This reduces exposure to potential pathogens. Soap products are commonly used for cleaning, as they help penetrate and break up stubborn materials. Liquid dish detergent diluted in warm water is an example of a good cleaning agent. However, soap residues can inactivate some disinfectants. "Disinfectant" is a term that is usually applied to a chemical or physical agent that kills vegetative forms of bacteria, fungi, and viruses. Disinfectants will not sterilize a surface hut will reduce pathogen numbers more dramatically than cleaners.

There are live main groups of disinfectants used with reptiles:

1. Quaternary ammonium compounds (Roccal-D, Upjohn Co.)

2. Chlorhexidine products (Nolvasan, Aveco Co.)

3. Household bleach (Sodium hypochlorite - many brands)

4. Ammonia (many brands)

5. Inorganic iodine products (e.g., povidone-iodine -many brands)

Regardless of the product used, for adequate disinfection to occur most manufacturers recommend a contact time of 15- 20 minutes. While this may be impractical for large cages, water dishes and cage furniture may be soaked and then well-rinsed. Large enclosures can be sprayed with an appropriate dilution of the disinfectant, which is then rinsed well after the appropriate contact time. Some soap residues can partially inactivate disinfectants such as the quaternary ammonium products, so a thorough rinsing after cleaning is imperative. Some reptiles, such as some of the water turtles and amphibians, are more sensitive to these agents and special attention has to he paid to the rinsing process. Cutaneous absorption of these products could prove to he fatal. Some containers used in animal housing are not totally impervious to these products. Plastic tends to retain some of the cleaning agents and disinfectants. At the National Aquarium in Baltimore, povidone-iodine was implicated in the deaths of some poison dart frogs. lf a chlorine product is used, then a dechlorinizing agent should be added to the rinse water. A thorough rinsing of both the cleaning agents and disinfectants is important to prevent accidental absorption via residues, to limit contact irritants, and to remove odors that could harm the respiratory system of the cage occupant.

Quaternary ammonium products like Roccal-D are very useful and easy to use. Roccal-D is fairly harsh to skin and prolonged contact is to be avoided. Despite rumors to the contrary, Roccal-D has not been shown to be carcinogenic. All cleaning agents used prior to using the disinfectant must be rinsed well or some inactivation of the product may occur. Chlorhexidine products are less harsh and are more commonly used. These products are often combined with cleansing agents (e.g., Nolvasan scrub), but this would he a fairly expensive product to use for general cleaning/disinfection. It is more reasonable to use a good cleaning agent, rinse well, and then apply the chlorhexidine (1%) as a spray; which is ultimately rinsed. This will work equally well for cages, cage furniture, and water dishes.

Povidone-iodine products can also he combined with cleansing agents to produce surgical scrub solutions. These products may penetrate some plastics and should be used with caution in sensitive reptiles. Staining of containers can also occur. The povidone-iodine products are effective for resistant organisms such as Entamoeba spp., although true sterilization is preferred.

Ammonia products are irritating to skin and the respiratory, tract and are infrequently used. However, ammonia-based products in a 5% solution are perhaps the agent of choice for Cryptosporidia spp., which are extremely resistant to disinfection. Mycobacterium spp. are also resistant to most disinfectants, and true sterilization may be required to control these pathogens.

Perhaps the most frequently used cleaning/disinfection combination used by veterinarians is bleach with a soap product, made popular owing to the resistance of canine parvovirus. One ounce (30 ml) of household chlorine bleach is combined with 1 teaspoon (5 ml) of a soap product like Palmolive or Dawn dish detergent in 1 quart of water. Because of the low cost of this mixture, new batches should he mixed with each cleaning/disinfection job. While good results are obtained, this mixture is also irritating to the skin and respiratory system. Chlorine bleach must never be combined with ammonia owing to the potential production of poisonous chlorine gases.

Each practitioner must make his or her own choice based on preference of the products mentioned. Products already in use in the veterinary clinic can be adapted for use with reptiles. Clients should be encouraged to use similar products, but their use must he thoroughly discussed with them if recommended. A handout on cleaning and disinfection techniques may prove to be useful.




*I know currently, these chemicals have not been proven to be carcinogenic but anyone who has spent ample time exposed to these chemicals can tell you that they DO have an effect on the skin or respiratory tract with prolonged exposure. Remember when asbestos was considered completely safe and used in schools? Then decades later it's proven to be highly carcinogenic...just something to think about

 

[KingdomOfHearts2010]

i agree quatricide is very good however one thing about it is that you MUST wash it thoroughly. i used to use quatricide before i found out about the toxicity of this product if not used correctly.
a safer alternative is Chlorhexidine.

I use Chlorohexadine with my tanks works great safe for my leos and Son and other pets at home no need to rinse I mixed my with distilled water in a water bottle spray works good and smells great . No need to wait after good wiping everything goes back and my leos are happy

 

[robin]

Great thread topic! I agree with all the comments and wanted to share some basic information with forum members.

Roccal-D plus and Quatricide very similar and if used correctly are both very effective. The active ingredients can be compared below:

Roccal-D plus:
Active Ingredient(s)
Didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride
9.2%
Alkyl (C12, 61%; C14, 23%; C16, 11%; C18, 2.5%; C8 & C10, 2.5%)
dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride
9.2%
Alkyl (C12, 40%; C14, 50%; C16, 10%) dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride
4.6%
bis-n-tributyltin oxide
1.0%
Inert Ingredients:
76.0%

Active ingredients in Quatricide: (cut and paste)

http://www.kellysolutions.com/erene...ISINFECTANT_10_25_2005_11_55_48_AMSecured.Pdf

For Toxicity information please scroll down on the links below:
Both fall under the category of "acute hazard warning label" 1 Danger
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Docs/ref_products.html#EPAWarning

Quatricide
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00850300011&DIST_NR=039565#Ingredients

Roccal
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR=00102300066&DIST_NR=001023

Here's some reading info with the reference below:

Disinfectants Useful Around Reptiles.
From the chapter Therapeutics, by Roger J. Klingenberg, DVM. In, Reptile Medicine and Surgery, Douglas R. Mader, DVM, editor. 1996, WB Saunders Co.:

As part of the comprehensive therapeutic plan, the practitioner should make recommendations concerning the hygiene of the reptile's environment. Improper sanitation, including inadequate disinfection, is commonly associated with health problems. The practitioner needs to stress to the owner the importance of proper disinfection and not merely cleaning.

Cleaning refers to the physical removal of organic debris. This reduces exposure to potential pathogens. Soap products are commonly used for cleaning, as they help penetrate and break up stubborn materials. Liquid dish detergent diluted in warm water is an example of a good cleaning agent. However, soap residues can inactivate some disinfectants. "Disinfectant" is a term that is usually applied to a chemical or physical agent that kills vegetative forms of bacteria, fungi, and viruses. Disinfectants will not sterilize a surface hut will reduce pathogen numbers more dramatically than cleaners.

There are live main groups of disinfectants used with reptiles:

1. Quaternary ammonium compounds (Roccal-D, Upjohn Co.)

2. Chlorhexidine products (Nolvasan, Aveco Co.)

3. Household bleach (Sodium hypochlorite - many brands)

4. Ammonia (many brands)

5. Inorganic iodine products (e.g., povidone-iodine -many brands)

Regardless of the product used, for adequate disinfection to occur most manufacturers recommend a contact time of 15- 20 minutes. While this may be impractical for large cages, water dishes and cage furniture may be soaked and then well-rinsed. Large enclosures can be sprayed with an appropriate dilution of the disinfectant, which is then rinsed well after the appropriate contact time. Some soap residues can partially inactivate disinfectants such as the quaternary ammonium products, so a thorough rinsing after cleaning is imperative. Some reptiles, such as some of the water turtles and amphibians, are more sensitive to these agents and special attention has to he paid to the rinsing process. Cutaneous absorption of these products could prove to he fatal. Some containers used in animal housing are not totally impervious to these products. Plastic tends to retain some of the cleaning agents and disinfectants. At the National Aquarium in Baltimore, povidone-iodine was implicated in the deaths of some poison dart frogs. lf a chlorine product is used, then a dechlorinizing agent should be added to the rinse water. A thorough rinsing of both the cleaning agents and disinfectants is important to prevent accidental absorption via residues, to limit contact irritants, and to remove odors that could harm the respiratory system of the cage occupant.

Quaternary ammonium products like Roccal-D are very useful and easy to use. Roccal-D is fairly harsh to skin and prolonged contact is to be avoided. Despite rumors to the contrary, Roccal-D has not been shown to be carcinogenic. All cleaning agents used prior to using the disinfectant must be rinsed well or some inactivation of the product may occur. Chlorhexidine products are less harsh and are more commonly used. These products are often combined with cleansing agents (e.g., Nolvasan scrub), but this would he a fairly expensive product to use for general cleaning/disinfection. It is more reasonable to use a good cleaning agent, rinse well, and then apply the chlorhexidine (1%) as a spray; which is ultimately rinsed. This will work equally well for cages, cage furniture, and water dishes.

Povidone-iodine products can also he combined with cleansing agents to produce surgical scrub solutions. These products may penetrate some plastics and should be used with caution in sensitive reptiles. Staining of containers can also occur. The povidone-iodine products are effective for resistant organisms such as Entamoeba spp., although true sterilization is preferred.

Ammonia products are irritating to skin and the respiratory, tract and are infrequently used. However, ammonia-based products in a 5% solution are perhaps the agent of choice for Cryptosporidia spp., which are extremely resistant to disinfection. Mycobacterium spp. are also resistant to most disinfectants, and true sterilization may be required to control these pathogens.

Perhaps the most frequently used cleaning/disinfection combination used by veterinarians is bleach with a soap product, made popular owing to the resistance of canine parvovirus. One ounce (30 ml) of household chlorine bleach is combined with 1 teaspoon (5 ml) of a soap product like Palmolive or Dawn dish detergent in 1 quart of water. Because of the low cost of this mixture, new batches should he mixed with each cleaning/disinfection job. While good results are obtained, this mixture is also irritating to the skin and respiratory system. Chlorine bleach must never be combined with ammonia owing to the potential production of poisonous chlorine gases.

Each practitioner must make his or her own choice based on preference of the products mentioned. Products already in use in the veterinary clinic can be adapted for use with reptiles. Clients should be encouraged to use similar products, but their use must he thoroughly discussed with them if recommended. A handout on cleaning and disinfection techniques may prove to be useful.




*I know currently, these chemicals have not been proven to be carcinogenic but anyone who has spent ample time exposed to these chemicals can tell you that they DO have an effect on the skin or respiratory tract with prolonged exposure. Remember when asbestos was considered completely safe and used in schools? Then decades later it's proven to be highly carcinogenic...just something to think about

excellent post jon! thank you for the info!

 

[T-ReXx]

A note on Rocal D:

I work in a vet hospital and we use both Rocal D and Chlorahexidine scrub as general disinfectants. If you do use Rocal, be extremely careful about dilution ratios as it can cause chemical burns when put in direct contact with the skin. In fact, we recently had a cat come in that was spayed at another hospital and placed in a holding cage that was cleaned with Rocal D before hand and developed extreme tissue damage from it(we're talking disfigurement here, she is sloughing skin on both her front paws and has pad damage on both rears, thankfully, it seems to be healing correctly and she should keep her toes). In it's raw form Rocal D is capable of doing some major skin damage. So be sure to dilute well when using it(we dont use it without rinsing thoroughly afterwards). Chlorahexidine is much safer, we use it for many different applications, including direct sterilization of patient skin sites, and is much less likely to cause potential issues. I personally have been using Chlorahexadine for a long time and am quite happy with it, but after seeing the damage Rocal can do, I wouldnt use it on anything my animals might come in contact with without a thorough rinse. For weekly sterilizations, Rocal D I think is fine if you're washing tubs thoroughly, but for daily spot cleaning, I prefer the safety factor of Chlorahexidine.

 

[Cephalectomy]

I've heard people using lemon juice and vinegar as cleaners, do these actually disinfect properly?