Combining different albino morphs?

[DAWNoftheLEO]

I'd have to agree... Enigmas are so so friggen cool, from color to color change and what they are doing for us now. SO awesome.

Than again, what if people start crossing Enigmas with Fasciolatus and others ssp(I'm sure it'll happen or has as of the recent flood of female f2 pure bloods)?

Would it be wrong to mutt out the ssp because of the lack of Males? (kind of off-subject)

I dunno but I'm sure that'd be fun too. Keeping everyone in on the genetic make-ups of any of these outcomes would be nothing but beneficial.

If I found my enigmas to be het tremper (and not advertised), I dunno if I feel that it would be a bad thing for me. *shrugs*

Just my opinion.

PS. I love you Enigma gene.

 

[paulnj]

Personally, I want to see enigma crossed into every subspecies, every morph. What would be wrong with outcrossing to a different subspecies or morph anyway. People took blizzards and added albino and fasciolatus X mack snow made some great looking animals , both were welcomed readily.:main_thumbsup:

 

[Mel&Keith]

You can't be sure you are preserving your "aristocratic purebreds" if you intend to work with Enigmas...

Welcome to the leopard gecko world of chasing the newest morph while its profitable...

Just because one person didn't disclose the genetics of what Enigmas were crossed with (probably because there weren't records) doesn't mean that all of us who own and breed them are not going to tell people that there's a slight chance that they could be het for something else. I think that comment was a little out of line, but maybe you're just having a bad day.

This thread was started to see why albino strains shouldn't knowingly be crossed. The early Enigmas from Mark are a perfect example of why lines shouldn't be crossed and hets should be disclosed. Kelli spoke for most of us when she said that what's known of their genetics is honestly disclosed to the buyer. I know we wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[JGoslee]

Thanks for all the informative replies. All this genetic stuff is slowly starting to make sense. :main_thumbsup:

 

[SteveB]

Wow!!

I do think that this is a bit jaded. I will be crossing my enigmas to many different traits. I will disclose all the genetic information I have available to me at the time of inquiry or sale of my animals. What more can one ask for?

If you choose not to work with the enigmas that is your choice. I do not think that they will be the downfall of the leopard gecko world though. Maybe the exact opposite?

We all know that I've always been the jaded and cynical one, been that way since kingsnake

The simple fact is, knowing what we do about the origins of the enigmas, how many people have actually stepped up and said they were doing test breedings to prove out the genetics behind the enigmas in their possession? Instead we acknowledge that the enigmas may be het for multiple albino strains, but turn a blind eye and keep pumping them out. If it was any other morph that had been on the market for any length of time and was not fetching $1500 it would be going for a reduced price compared to "pure" specimens due to the questionable genetics and possibly advertised as being suitable for a pet only.

I love the enigmas that are being produced, there is no denying that the gene is unlocking some amazing new morphs. But we're all so busy chasing new morphs that we are not thinking about preserving bloodlines. By the time the dust has settled there will be possibly tens of thousands of animals out there that are carrying the genes for multiple albino strains.

Now the one somewhat redeeming factor is that by nature of the enigma trait, you never have to breed back to parents or siblings in order to produce more enigmas. Every time an enigma is sold and bred by the buyer, as long as the animals continue to be outcrossed and bred towards a specific goal, as time goes on theoretically/statistically with every generation it becomes less likely that enigmas are carrying hidden traits. So maybe I am an alarmist and it will all work itself out in time?

 

[SteveB]

Personally, I want to see enigma crossed into every subspecies, every morph. What would be wrong with outcrossing to a different subspecies or morph anyway. People took blizzards and added albino and fasciolatus X mack snow made some great looking animals , both were welcomed readily.:main_thumbsup:

I think that's another point that is worth addressing... we can't have it both ways. We can't produce enigmas and fasciolatus crosses only to jump on the people doing RAPTOR x Bell or RAPTOR x Rainwater crosses, etc.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

I think that's another point that is worth addressing... we can't have it both ways. We can't produce enigmas and fasciolatus crosses only to jump on the people doing RAPTOR x Bell or RAPTOR x Rainwater crosses, etc.

This was my main point! I think that there are very limited pure lines available. With all of the crosses that have been done, it would be hard for someone to prove that their lines are pure. How is it that we know that the 3 strains of albino are all incompatible? Oh yeah, someone, at sometime bred them all together.

In my opinion almost all the geckos out there are mutts. The purest of lines are probably the sub-species. I'm sure that there are some other pure lines out there but they are limited.

 

[Mel&Keith]

If every gecko was test bred, what would happen to all off the mixed offspring? Even if they were placed in "pet only" homes, there's no guarantee that they wouldn't ever be bred. Someone once told me that they thought that 80% of all Leos were het Tremper. Who knows...that may not be too far off! All we can do is try to keep our lines as pure as possible.

 

[rhino43grr]

am i right in assuming the albino strains are all mutations of the same allele?

 

[SteveB]

If every gecko was test bred, what would happen to all off the mixed offspring? Even if they were placed in "pet only" homes, there's no guarantee that they wouldn't ever be bred. Someone once told me that they thought that 80% of all Leos were het Tremper. Who knows...that may not be too far off! All we can do is try to keep our lines as pure as possible.

Maybe a responsible breeder should be willing to cull undesireable animals, especially in the case of leopard geckos where over a hundred thousand are produced each year and breeders sometimes bargain hunt at petstores. There really is no reason to sell as pet only and risk introducing deformities or genetic impurities into the marketplace, unless you are against culling. And personally, I have found it to be heartbreaking to adopt out animals as pet only, because it is such a difficult process to screen potential adopters. I would rather cull a deformed animal, than ever see it bred by someone I misjudged when placing it with them as a pet only.

How do you reconcile trying to keep your lines as pure as possible with breeding animals you know potentially are not pure?

I personally am not ready to do so. In a few generations enigmas will have become more genetically predictable as they continue to be outcrossed. They'll also have fallen in price :main_thumbsup:

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

How do you reconcile trying to keep your lines as pure as possible with breeding animals you know potentially are not pure?

I personally am not ready to do so. In a few generations enigmas will have become more genetically predictable as they continue to be outcrossed. They'll also have fallen in price :main_thumbsup:

Being more genetically predictable and being pure are not one in the same. I know that you understand this as I think that you are are an intelligent person. So considering the statement that you made, is it really just about the price?

 

[SteveB]

Nope, just a perk, could have left that statement out just the same.

Genetically predictable from a reliable source will be enough eventually for me to chance the odds. The more outcrossed they are, the smaller the chances of them being a carrier for undesireable traits will be. We're not at that stage yet in my opinion, because we're still at that point where we are trying to create PA enigmas, BB enigmas, etc. where we are still likely breeding siblings together.

Now the one somewhat redeeming factor is that by nature of the enigma trait, you never have to breed back to parents or siblings in order to produce more enigmas. Every time an enigma is sold and bred by the buyer, as long as the animals continue to be outcrossed and bred towards a specific goal, as time goes on theoretically/statistically with every generation it becomes less likely that enigmas are carrying hidden traits. So maybe I am an alarmist and it will all work itself out in time?

That's what I said about 5 posts earlier. I was just reiterating my point... and trying to make it clear that I am not writing them off entirely and fully intend to get into them myself. I'm not going to spend top dollar for animals I am not yet comfortable with the genetic background of. And it doesn't matter who is producing them right now, statistically the odds are still not at the point where I'd take a gamble. I do however know that there are a number of ethical breeders who are working with these animals responsibly and that in a few generations they will be producing outstanding enigmas that are outcrossed and as a result much less likely to be carrying undesireable albino traits.

 

[Mel&Keith]

So why test breed and cull potentially hundreds of geckos if people will wait for Enigmas to be outcrossed?


We bred one of those early Enigmas from Mark. After much discussion with other breeders, we made an educated guess that it was het Bell and it was. We have not sold any of the offspring and they will be bred to Bells next year. So by the time we have a generation that is ready to sell the chances that they will be het for any other albino strain are are very slim. Personally that .0whatever % chance that they could be het for something else isn't worth culling a bunch of geckos. Any potential buyer would be informed that 3 generations ago the mother was never actually proven not to be het Tremper, RW, Blizzard, Patternless, etc.

 

[SteveB]

So maybe I am an alarmist and it will all work itself out in time?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

This is why I have a complete distrust of enigmas. Pay 1500 to potentially ruin your bloodlines just to try and make money yourself.

You can't be sure you are preserving your "aristocratic purebreds" if you intend to work with Enigmas...

The more outcrossed they are, the smaller the chances of them being a carrier for undesireable traits will be.

Steve, you are contradicting yourself if I understand your point correctly. On one hand, you are are saying that the Enigma is really a mutt and therefore should not be trusted because it has undesirable genes... and on the other hand you are saying that the more they are outcrossed, the less chance those undesirable genes will have to express themselves.

Outcrossing the Enigma's will certainly dilute the Enigma genetics, but it will also prove out and isolate those traits you find undesirable. But who's to say that ANY leopard gecko we acquire from ANY source doesn't have hidden, unknown genes? The only gecko morphs that we can be sure of would be homozygous recessive traits, like the three albino strains, Murphy patternless, and blizzards. Even the RAPTOR has more than two combined genetic traits... and a lot of people were skeptical of the red-eye and snake-eye gene at first and found it undesirable.

Let's take a look back when other 'new' genetic morphs were introduced... the Mack Snow for example. John Mack himself made no bones about saying he didn't have a clue how they were created, he just bred a bunch of different morphs together and viola! There was the Mack Snow. Take this point further, and all 3 albino strains were 'created' the same way. A random genetic mutation that 'popped' out of the breeders' colonies. Or was it really random? Those geckos that the albinos originated from HAD to have had undesirable genes floating around in them somewhere, right?

I guess my point is, unless we go out to the Middle East and collect our own 'aristocratic purebreds', there is never going to be a 100% guarantee of the genetics of any gecko we have.

I think the majority of the breeders that are working with the Enigmas are doing a fantastic job unlocking any 'hidden' genes, culling those few originals that appeared to have neurological problems, and are probably even strengthening the morph's genetics by outcrossing. This certainly cannot be said of the creators of the original morphs!

Now, since this thread is titled, "Combining different ALBINO morphs", can we please keep it on topic and perhaps start a new thread on the Enigma?

 

[SteveB]

Marcia,

Statistically-

Cross one Enigma that is het for both tremper and bell albino to a Tremper albino.
Breed any resulting Tremper Enigma to a completely unrelated Tremper albino
Breed any resulting Tremper Enigma to a completely unrelated Tremper albino
Breed any resulting Tremper Enigma to a completely unrelated Tremper albino
Breed any resulting Tremper Enigma to a completely unrelated Tremper albino
Breed any resulting Tremper Enigma to a completely unrelated Tremper albino
And so on...

This far removed from the original what are the odds of any resulting Tremper Enigma also being het for Bell? The further removed the less likely, although still not impossible.

"artisticratic purebreds" was your phrase, Marcia.

With all the genetic combinations we are creating today, whats so wrong with just keeping them the aristocratic purebreds that they are?

I happen to like it a lot!

I thought we were somewhat on the same wavelength at least in the start of this thread...

This is very true... especially with the new Enigma combination morphs since they popped up in the Bell line.

But you're right, we should probably move away from Enigma discussion since it is such a hot point...

 

[okapi]

am i right in assuming the albino strains are all mutations of the same allele?

No, they each have their own locus.

 

[okapi]

Now, since this thread is titled, "Combining different ALBINO morphs", can we please keep it on topic and perhaps start a new thread on the Enigma?

With all due respect, I believe that the enigma topic paints a perfect picture of why the albino traits should not be crossed. But I do agree that the the point has been made many times in the past few pages.
Basically crossing the albino lines causes confusion down the road.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK... I'm going to throw a wrench in the works here and play 'devil's advocate'. Why do we think it's ethical to cross albinos with blizzards, patternless, snows, SHTCT's, and enigma's - but not ethical to cross the different albino strains?

 

[PacHerp]

I think that is a very good question.