Culling question - not for sensitive people

[HepCatMoe]

first, i agree that culling is necessary.

i just wanted to say that i have read that freezing reptiles is not painless.

it takes a while for the reptile to fall unconscious, and even then there is a period of deep stress and terrible physical uncomfort as the reptile tries to escape. also, when you freeze it the animal has ice crystals form in its body. this could happen to the little toes and other parts of its body far before it falls unconscious.

even then when the gecko is unconscious who is to say its not feeling pain? i doubt their brain works the same is ours.

so, in my opinion the best method of culling is simply smashing the little geckos head. i know its sounds terribly violent and brutal, but in my opinion its the quickest most painless way. if you just smash its little head into oblivion, say with a hammer, it will never even know what happened.

again i know it sounds horrible, but it truly is the most humane way.

as far as feeding the little geckos to beardies goes, i personally dont have a problem with that. at least they are not being wasted and like somebody else said its just part of they cycle of life, which in a way almost makes it kind of holy.

i hope nobody takes offense at any part of this post. its kind of a touchy subject, and i was just putting in my two cents.

 

[Calsonic]

well, I think part of the "problem" of deciding which animal deserves more to die or to suffer depends also somewhat on each of us and how we look at them.
Me for example, I feel more "friend" of reptiles and amphibians than the insects (with which I also live every day) that are bred by all of us specifically to feed our reptiles. On the other hand I love mammals, I have dogs, sheeps etc and I would never kill them, however I'm not a vegetarian and I eat meat almost every days.

yes, I've had to euthanize Leopardo Geckos before, and believe me, I felt Bad when I closed the freezer door, but at the same time I think that was the best for them, and the method I choosed was even better (I think) than a hammer smach or a date with a bearded dragon, even knowing that my method takes a little longer.

 

[Dog Shrink]

In the long run no one method is really any better than the other. Death always involves a bit of suffering and isn't pleasant for either the one being culled or the culler, BUT what it all comes down to is What can your conscience best deal with in the end. There is always some form of guilt or feeling badly for having to do it, and choosing a method for culling is a personal choice of ones's own beliefs of how each method affects the animal being culled (the amount of suffering that is). I don't know that any one way is better than another, but again what I think it all comes down to is what that particular person is best able to cope with with in their own conscience.

Also to calsonic, not to be nit pickey but it's not choosed it's chose or had chosen. If you're confortable with the methods you chose to cull when it was needed then there is nothing wrong with it as long as the animal does not suffer needlessly. Honestly for me, IDK what I'd do for culling a leo. The freezing thing does sound like it suffers more with the ice crystals and onset of hypothermia since there is a sense and period of awareness before the leo succumbs to unconsciousness but it is the least messy, practically hands off approach you could possibly have in culling. The hammer method does leave a lot to be desired since it would be YOU throwing the hammer onto an animal you loved and raised (if it were an adult leo it would be HIGHLY difficult for me) but it IS the fastest and least painful for the animal being culled IMO, and the beardie method, well yes that is the circle of life but may still involve some degree of suffering (if the beardie doesn't kill it on the first grab) and conscious awareness that the end was near.

Culling is a very personal choice and an individual decision. Again it all comes down to what that person can best cope with within themselves.

 

[M_surinamensis]

i just wanted to say that i have read that freezing reptiles is not painless.

it takes a while for the reptile to fall unconscious, and even then there is a period of deep stress and terrible physical uncomfort as the reptile tries to escape. also, when you freeze it the animal has ice crystals form in its body. this could happen to the little toes and other parts of its body far before it falls unconscious.

even then when the gecko is unconscious who is to say its not feeling pain? i doubt their brain works the same is ours.

Honestly for me, IDK what I'd do for culling a leo. The freezing thing does sound like it suffers more with the ice crystals and onset of hypothermia since there is a sense and period of awareness before the leo succumbs to unconsciousness but it is the least messy, practically hands off approach you could possibly have in culling. The hammer method does leave a lot to be desired since it would be YOU throwing the hammer onto an animal you loved and raised (if it were an adult leo it would be HIGHLY difficult for me) but it IS the fastest and least painful for the animal being culled IMO, and the beardie method, well yes that is the circle of life but may still involve some degree of suffering (if the beardie doesn't kill it on the first grab) and conscious awareness that the end was near.

Freezing is a very painful way for endothermic animals to die. Ectothermic animals are a different situation and then reptiles themselves have very different pain responses than we do. This is a situation where anthropomorphism has no upside and empathy is misleading.

The body of many warm blooded animals (not all) reacts to extreme cold in a way that tries to preserve brain function as long as possible. A human being experiencing life threatening low temperature has their digits, then limbs shut down first, with blood flow all directed as keeping the brain alive- and actively aware, as long as possible. Frostbite and hypothermia victims get to feel cells rupturing before sensation is completely lost and will not lose that sensation until unconsciousness is imminent and death is close. A warm blooded animal produces heat and regulates temperature.

The body of most cold blooded animals (again, not all) react to cold by simply losing any existing heat from the outside in, there's no regulatory process and heat is lost based on shape and tissue density. The brain of a reptile is very close to the surface, just underneath a thin layer of skin and bone, with the hollow of the mouth just underneath it. Heat retention doesn't last long at all, even in temperatures which are just below freezing. Unconsciousness and death happen relatively quickly, they (with rare, relatively unique exceptions for species that have cold weather adaptations) do not have any sort of mechanism to preserve brain function or to internally regulate available heat in order to preserve brain function.

Now the bit where I get a bit philosophical. Well... sort of philosophical. Philosophical for me anyway.

Pain, in its simplest definition, is sensory information. It is a state which exists when the nerves are sending information which indicates the body has been damaged.

It is unpleasant as an evolutionary adaptation, to prompt specific behaviors. Those behaviors are instinctive, things that are intended to control the animal and keep it alive. If an animal has a broken limb, it hurts to put weight on it, so they limp around and the limb has some time to heal. If they are bitten by a parasitic insect, tick or mite, it itches and they scratch, ideally killing the offending organism in the process. If a predator bites at them, it hurts a great deal, so they try to immediately either bite back or escape (some of them get away and manage to live). It's sort of the flip-side of why sex feels good or high-fat, high-calorie food taste so delicious. The sensation prompts the instinctive behavior.

Not every animal responds to every sensation the same way though. Not every animal has a response to something that we would consider painful. A person who has ever burned themselves has experienced pain as a result of temperature. We have a response inherent in our instinctive dictates that is associated with it, you touch a hot stove and jerk your hand back, you bite into hot food and you suck air in to cool it, these behaviors can't be helped when the sensation of pain is unexpected. A reptile will sit on a malfunctioning heat pad as its flesh cauterizes and cooks, arboreal snakes and lizards will perch on an exposed light bulb as their flesh sears and sizzles and they show absolutely no behavioral response whatsoever in most cases. They will remain there until they die, oblivious to the connection between the burning hot object they are in contact with and the sensation of pain that they may be experiencing. Or may not be experiencing at all to begin with, not every species has a nervous system that transmits the same kind of information to the brain.*

What is more important, when one is considering the idea of suffering, is not so much if pain exists- but what the brain does with the information as it receives it.

We, as a species, are self aware. When we feel pain, in addition to the purely physical response and the instinctive twitching back from something hot or sharp, we also have the conscious knowledge that our self is being damaged. We can conceptualize abstracts like death or like a future where we're crippled by injury. Pain is so much more for us than it is for most of the other things living on this planet. Reptiles simply do not have the physical brain structure required for that kind of awareness. They do feel pain, they do have reactions to some sorts of pain but they have no reaction to other sources of it. If pain is not understood, if the brain does not register it as happening, then it is meaningless pain, in a discussion about suffering (and humane ways of ending it, avoiding it or minimizing it).

I have watched reptiles which were being frozen as a form of euthanasia, from the time they were put in the freezer until they were dead. Pretty much to satisfy the exact curiosities that prompted this discussion. I've done it as often as I was able to actually, every time an opportunity presented itself where euthanasia was an appropriate choice and when I had the time to devote to the observation. I have never witnessed a reptile showing any signs of distress, no behaviors to indicate that they were aware of what was happening, no panic, no attempts at escape. Just normal behaviors, slowing quickly into lethargy, unconsciousness and death. It can be difficult to know exactly what a reptile is thinking, we have a pretty extreme disconnect in how our brains operate that makes genuine empathy something that is close to impossible- but I have observed a lot of reptile behavior and have a pretty good grasp on the way their instincts work. In my subjective opinion, based on my observations, they do not suffer when euthanized using extreme cold as the method of bringing about death.

The AVA disagrees, but the AVA is overwhelmingly composed of veterinarians who focus on mammals and birds, so I am comfortable rejecting their stance on the subject. Collectively however, they're an authority with a great deal more weight on the subject of animal medical concerns than I am though, so others may want to simply accept their position and follow their guidelines.

*we have the required physical sensory organs to have the same magnetic sense as migratory birds. Somewhere along the line, our brain just started pretty much ignoring it. The most we get are some individual people who have a faint sense of direction that might be able to pick out something vaguely northish slightly more than half the time if other clues are obscured.

 

[T-ReXx]

Frankly I find anyone who puts any animal as being "more of a friend" than any other is being a specieist. Predators eat prey, prey animals die, predators become prey, prey animals escape, predators starve to death. Eating and being eaten is the natural world, it is reality. Whether you are a beetle getting eaten by a toad or a zebra being eaten by a lion it doesn't make a difference to me. I don't put any particular species on a higher scale than any other. Just because one sheep is bred to be lamb chops and another is bred for wool doesn't change the fact that they are both still sheep. I have no qualms about feeding a prey item to a predator I own, be it a superworm or a deformed hatchling gecko, or a fully grown rat. It's what these creatures do. Denying the fact or couching it in "polite" terms doesn't change what it is. Breeding any animal comes with culling young, it's just a part of it. Euthanasia is a necessary part of keeping animals on a long term basis at some point. Better the body be turned into useful energy than discarded.

One other note, I did come across a study about people being advised to kill feral iguanas in florida by placing them in a cooler full of dry ice and freezing them to death. It did make a point on how painful this process can be. I think the key with freezing is you want the animal to go into torpor before it is frozen, so a gradual cooling would be better really, one that causes the body systems to slow and shutdown in order, rather than immediate exposure to freezing temperatures, which could cause shock and distress.

 

[JordanAng420]

Seamus,

That is an INCREDIBLE post. The best i've seen on GeckoForums.net EVER. Thank you for the wealth of information, I appreciate it very much...much respect.

 

[KelliH]

Seamus gets mad props. I agree with Maia, excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

 

[Calsonic]

Thank you for your posts.
My conclusion after this thread, is that if I have to euthanize a gecko in the future it will not be in the mouth of any other animal. I do not agree with that. (no disrespect for those who feed Bearded Dragons with baby Leopard Geckos).

again, thanks for all the posts.
a healthy discussion about this big disease. :main_thumbsup:

 

[Keith N]

There will always be two sides to culling. The ones that favor culling are not insensitive about it. We just understand the effects and possible future problems if they make it into the breeding world. All it takes is one mix up and a season off eggs to introduce something into the population that can have lasting affects forever. I will say it every time, how many deformed animals do you see in the wild? None as they are consumed back into the circle of life so another healthier animal can flourish in its spot and the animal that consumed it can have the nourishment to progress and procreate. Unfortunately you have to take human emotion out of it when you are faced with the problem. Each have their own method of culling and there can be lengthy discussion about right or wrong. The fact is if you do in private your own way that you feel minimizes the animals suffering then you you have nothing to feel bad about. Take an example, my son who is 7 has just this year really stepped into the breeding aspect with me. We had a major power outage that caused a major temp flux in the incubator. A few of the eggs went bad and 2 or 3 came out deformed. My son was excited to see the hatch ling come but then came the observation of no eyelids. I told him we had to cull it and then his emotion came in. I simply sat him down and asked him to tell me when we have been camping or hiking if he has seen any animal with no eyelids, 3 legs instead of 4, blind or whatever. He could not and that is how I opened him up to the circle of life in animals discussion. We are the control that has to step in and remove them from the process since they are not in the wild to have predators to do it for us. The next gecko that hatched was perfect and we both now went over it with our magnifying glass to ensure they are 100%. This is now his responsibility when they hatch. I still go over them with mine but he now knows that it is up to us to not let an animal into the breeding population that may taint the gene pool eventually and make an even harder problem to remedy.

 

[M_surinamensis]

One thing I neglected to mention, that really needs it...

Anyone choosing to euthanize an animal should always check into the legality of their chosen method before moving forward.

Weigh the pros and cons of the various methods, consider the physical or physiological effects on the animal, make a moral decision about the method- but make sure that method is also legal. At least in the US, laws surrounding veterinary euthanasia can vary wildly from state to state, county to county and city to city. Who is allowed to perform it, when and how are things which may be restricted.

Nobody wants to get in trouble or accidentally violate animal cruelty laws when they're already making the hard decision to end the life of a pet.

 

[Yoh4n]

first, i agree that culling is necessary.

i just wanted to say that i have read that freezing reptiles is not painless.

it takes a while for the reptile to fall unconscious, and even then there is a period of deep stress and terrible physical uncomfort as the reptile tries to escape. also, when you freeze it the animal has ice crystals form in its body. this could happen to the little toes and other parts of its body far before it falls unconscious.

even then when the gecko is unconscious who is to say its not feeling pain? i doubt their brain works the same is ours.

so, in my opinion the best method of culling is simply smashing the little geckos head. i know its sounds terribly violent and brutal, but in my opinion its the quickest most painless way. if you just smash its little head into oblivion, say with a hammer, it will never even know what happened.

again i know it sounds horrible, but it truly is the most humane way.

as far as feeding the little geckos to beardies goes, i personally dont have a problem with that. at least they are not being wasted and like somebody else said its just part of they cycle of life, which in a way almost makes it kind of holy.

i hope nobody takes offense at any part of this post. its kind of a touchy subject, and i was just putting in my two cents.

Almost cried when I read this =[

 

[prettyinpink]

M_surinamensis- Thank you so much for the great read!
If I read this correct, you think that the frozen method is the best? I'm still researching, and I think I've come to the conclusion of the frozen one. I've also heard about the fish bowl.

How would you go about doing the frozen method... (I even hate to ask)

T-ReXx- There are people like you, then there are people who put too much 'human emotion' into animals. I for one as most people know am one of those, but would like to say I'm not 'as bad'. There are some days I wish I was like those people, that can not put the emotion into what work needs to be done.

There are reasons I haven't started breeding yet, and the main reason is culling. I've been researching it endlessly and hated the topic to begin with. Now the more I read, the more informative you get and understand.

I agree with what Dog Shrink stated. I think a lot of it comes down to personal preference. Some people may think that the head smashing is the best humane way to do it, which may be right. But there are some people that couldn't do that. I for one would be in that category. I couldn't.
Same with the beardie eating 'circle of life'. Yes, but I couldn't stand knowing what happened. Does this make me weird, maybe... or a bad person, I don't think so. I think it just comes down to personal preference and I don't think there's any reason to get worked up if someone doesn't want to feed their animal they produced to their other animal.

The 'human emotion' sure can get frustrating at times. That's for sure.

 

[Desdemona]

Interesting discussion! Just some added tips for those who want the quick physical blow method. You can minimize mess greatly by putting the animal in a ziplock bag. Though you'll have to do so quickly if you want to minimize stress, make sure you take air out so it doesn't pop like a balloon (read, haven't practice this myself). I have also heard of people doing the bag bit and then going over it with a car, making sure the animal is in the middle of the tires. Though, something like that outside, you want to be careful who sees you! You don't want those legal issues Semus mentioned earlier.

I don't have the stomach for those methods, so can't say from personal experience how they work, but I have read it works well. I would use the "feed to a larger animal," option most likely. If I do decide to breed a larger lizard might be in my future.

 

[TokayKeeper]

Seamus hinted at it regarding regulatory laws at a city or state level. There are 2 other methods that can be used. 1 falls under Seamus' word of caution and that is full out euthanasia via a short-acting barbiturate. HOWEVER, such drugs are a controlled substance and are typically only available for use by vets and academic/private lab researchers under the direct scrutiny of an IACUC.

Another method is cervical dislocation, or breaking the neck, but if not done properly it can actually prolong pain/suffering.

I post this info not out of being insensitive, but rather to share additional options for being morally and ethically responsible by doing the right thing. That statement as a whole is fully up to you, the individual, to define what is morally and ethically responsible, and thusly the right thing to do. That said, personally, had I produced the jaguar carpet, spider ball, or engima leo and known about their neurological issues...well that would have been all I needed to know to not perpetuate the morphs. But that's just me.

I also mention these 2 methods after having worked at a research institute here in Albuquerque where I worked within ABSL-3 and ABSL/BSL-2 laboratories (look up the abbreviation) as a necropsy technician on respiratory research. These were 2 of only 3 approved humane methods of euthanasia, the 3rd was less humane and was reserved for when techs failed at giving a proper dosage of a pentobarbital (Euthasol®) or research protocols called for it as barbiturates can cause organ damage when you need to harvest naive tissue samples. That 3rd method is exsanguination.

If I remember the IACUC training I went through, freezing was not a humane euthanasia option for any vertebrates within research. Some of these research species included ectotherms (select species of amphbians, lizards, and snakes)!

 

[M_surinamensis]

M_surinamensis- Thank you so much for the great read!
If I read this correct, you think that the frozen method is the best? I'm still researching, and I think I've come to the conclusion of the frozen one. I've also heard about the fish bowl.

How would you go about doing the frozen method... (I even hate to ask)

Freezing isn't necessarily "the best" I was just adding my personal opinion and observations about using it as a method- since it is generally considered inhumane by veterinary groups. My conclusion and theirs are different, some people will feel comfortable assessing my position and its merits, others will not... if you're unsure, then I'd say to follow the veterinary guidelines, which tend to be more exclusionary than inclusive for acceptable methods.

Best is a tough word to use, since it can vary from animal to animal and situation to situation. As long as you are obeying all applicable laws (which may restrict the options) and are giving the matter due consideration and keeping in mind that the goal is to end the animal's life with the smallest amount of suffering possible, you'll be okay.

I have used different methods for different animals and reasons over the years, I have some personal preferences and thoughts but it's a question I consider fresh each time I have come to a point where I need to make the decision. I suspect anyone taking the time to participate in a thread like this one is going to do the same, weighing all practical, ethical and professional or personal concerns before moving ahead.

 

[PDoogle]

I have used different methods for different animals and reasons over the years, I have some personal preferences and thoughts but it's a question I consider fresh each time I have come to a point where I need to make the decision. I suspect anyone taking the time to participate in a thread like this one is going to do the same, weighing all practical, ethical and professional or personal concerns before moving ahead.

Beautifully said.