Do Melanistic Leopard Geckos Exist?

[marula]

i agree 100% with gregg...
melanistic is a genetic trait..and is not proven to be founded in any leopard geckos ...people generally call melanistic geckos that look more darker...

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

The definition came from Graziani Reptile`s website. Not wikipedia. It gives several definitions, and tells who wrote each entry. Their page gives the exact mode of inheritance for most of the other traits listed, but for whatever reason it says nothing about how melanism is passed on.

Melanism- Excessive amounts of black pigment (Holmes, 1979). An unusual increase in the normal amount of black pigment within a particular individual as contrasted with other members of its species (Peters, 1964). Occasionally used to characterize a species in which all individuals are equally black (Peters, 1964). Abundance of black pigment, sometimes resulting in an all-black animal; the opposite of albinism (Conant, 1975). A condition in which an animal has an unusually large amount of dark pigment so that it appears black or blackish (Arnold and Burton, 1978). Not the same as anerythristic, which is the absence of red and orange pigment (McEachern, 1991). Unusual darkening of normal pigmentation due to increased melanin (Bechtel, 1995).

From VMSHerp.com

Frequently shortened to 'Melanism'. This trait, the exact opposite of amelanism, is also rather simple to understand. These animals possess extensive quantities of dermal melanophores. The result is a pattern near totally obscured by black and dark brown pigment.

From Peter Kahl Reptile`s site.

Melanism - unusual darkening of normal pigmentation due to increased melanin.

From Texas Parks and Wildlife site

This condition, known as melanism (MEL-uh-niz-um), gives the animal a black or much darker than normal appearance.

From Rattlesnakes.com

Melanism is an overproduction of the pigment melanin, resulting in animals that are entirely, or nearly, all-black.

From Herptiles.com

Melanistic- describes an animal which has abnormally excessive melanin production in the skin, and appears much darker than the norm for that species.

From Lioncrusher.com

Melanistic: An animal that is dark or black in color that is not normally so. These animals are usually not pure black, as any markings can still be seen.

From Gartersnakemorphs.com

MELANISTIC EASTERN, my personal favorite, jet black with a patch of white underneath their chin.

From Aquariumofpacific.com

Melanistic
color phase in which the skin, plumage, or pelage is black or near black due to the presence of the pigment melanin

Photo from Rattlesnakes.com

Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
(melanistic, black)
Crotalus atrox - This picture was just below the above description. My guess is they are saying it is a Melanistic

So I have learned there are varying degrees of melanism, and melanistic animals do not "have to" be all black. There is plenty of proof right here.

 

[paulnj]

Don't believe everything you read on the net

Part albino deer???
http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/news/2007/01/reader_pics_of_.html

 

[Ccrashca069]

Well it can be said about not believing everything you read on the internet as being true. The same is also don't believe everything you read and hear.

Like I stated earlier FOR LEOPARD GECKOS THERE IS NO STANDARDS OR CLEAR DEFINITIONS ON MORPHS SO STANDARDS OF EACH MORPH SHOULD BE SET.

 

[Kotsay1414]

Like I stated earlier FOR LEOPARD GECKOS THERE IS NO STANDARDS OR CLEAR DEFINITIONS ON MORPHS SO STANDARDS OF EACH MORPH SHOULD BE SET.

Although there is no standard and will probably never be one. Resources like the Leopard Gecko Wiki (www.LeopardGeckoWiki.com) and LeopardGeckos.us will just have to do a great job of describing the morphs available.

 

[paulnj]

That was just a friendly reminder

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Good advice. But, I will take actual written scientific definitions, over misguided opinions "read on the net", any day.

 

[Ccrashca069]

This is all great reading and I am enjoying reading the feedback. I do some of my off the wall thinking when my cat wake me up around 5am and when I finally crawl out of bed around 9am. If we take what is being said about Melanistic and twist it on albino's..... not saying anything wrong with albino's because I think bells are cool and have some

1) Albinos have white bellies
2) They have a faded or washed out coloring and pattern
3) Because they have coloring and pattern then they should not be considered Albino's because the have color pigment except for their bellies?
4) Albino: Lack of color pigment

Just a little food for though. Just to say that maybe there is no "TRUE Albino" except for maybe a Blazzing Blizzard which looks like a plucket chicken or a shaved rat lmao

 

[Kotsay1414]

This is all great reading and I am enjoying reading the feedback. I do some of my off the wall thinking when my cat wake me up around 5am and when I finally crawl out of bed around 9am. If we take what is being said about Melanistic and twist it on albino's..... not saying anything wrong with albino's because I think bells are cool and have some

1) Albinos have white bellies
2) They have a faded or washed out coloring and pattern
3) Because they have coloring and pattern then they should not be considered Albino's because the have color pigment except for their bellies?
4) Albino: Lack of color pigment

Just a little food for though. Just to say that maybe there is no "TRUE Albino" except for maybe a Blazzing Blizzard which looks like a plucket chicken or a shaved rat lmao

To my knowledge, an Albino is a Leopard Gecko which does not produce Black Pigments.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

The Albinos are still considered Albinos. Albino Leos are tyrosinase(sp?) positive, so they can end up producing some melanin. Albinos can have pattern still, it should just be lighter colored. Same goes for Melanistics, they can have pattern, it should be darker colored though, and harder to see. Melanistic "big cats" do still display their normal patterns, in bright light. The darkness of the background, makes the patterns hard to see, except in sunlight.

Reminds me of a black cat("Samantha") we used to have. She was so pretty when laying in the sun. You could see all of her natural pattern, that was pretty much not able to be seen in normal light.

 

[paulnj]

Dan is right, I had a panther cub as a rescue for a few months until I placed it outside Watertown NY:main_lipsrsealed:

 

[Ccrashca069]

Well I basically put about the Albinos and what is considered an albino Gecko to what Albino is to just make a simple point. Basically the point is there needs to be clear definitions and standards of all the morphs instead of everyones interpretation of them.

 

[Greyscale_Geckos]

Basically the point is there needs to be clear definitions and standards of all the morphs instead of everyones interpretation of them.

I definitely agree with you on that one.

After thinking it over for awhile...

It seems though that the best definitions are the ones that are used most often, and don't confuse people. In this case it is probably going to cause a lot less headaches if we use "hyper melanistic" to describe geckos that are not completely black, but still have increased melanin, and then "melanistic" for the unattained "black" leopard gecko.

As a genetics student I learned the two terms as the opposite when applying to all living creatures, but considering people make their own standards and use different terminology, it might just be better to go with the flow.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Basically the point is there needs to be clear definitions and standards of all the morphs instead of everyones interpretation of them.

Yes, but we do not seem to come to the same conclusions. Everyone seems to interpret things differently. For example, people are saying that melanistic animals "have to" be all black, when the definitions state otherwise. Just because some melanistics are all black, does not mean they all have to be. These definitions all seem to have that one part in common(that they can be "nearly" all black, or even just darker than normal). The way I see it, they do not tell us if the Leos we are seeing are indeed Melanistic. It also does not clearly tell us that they are not. It could be "Abundism" that we are seeing, but even that was said "to be a type" of Melanism. Just saying.

I wonder what everyone will say about the Melanistic Garter Snake " that has a white patch".

I agree it should be something we all should be able to figure out, and agree upon. That seems very hard to do tho`!

 

[Brhaco]

Dan-

It's true that the melanistic garters do often sport a white chin patch, but otherwise they fit my previous definition of "melanistic"-they are plain black both above and below (excepting the small chin patch). and most importantly, the trait is inherited as a simple recesive.

BTW-way cool snakes. We used to find them occasionally in my old stomping grounds of NW Ohio near Lake Erie....:main_yes:

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Brad, I understand that. My point for bringing it up is the fact they are not all black, which still fits the desciption of being melanistic. At least from the many definitions I just saw this morning.

Those definitions, and the fact the melanistic garter has some white on it, makes me think it is entirely possible for other species, to be true melanistics, without being 100% black. I would not even think to call those "Black Pearls" anything else. I mean just take a look at them, they are soooo dark. There really is no other trait that can cause that.

Plus the fact that melanism can be passed on in more than one way, means it does not have to be a simple recessive trait. Like I mentioned here somewhere, alot of people would wrongly call height in humans "linebred", and compare it to Tangs. When in reality even "Tangerine" is passed on in the same way as height in humans. Height is genetic, it just does not rely on only one gene. Different traits are passed on in different ways, by different animals. So it just leads me to think "maybe" these will prove genetic, in a different way.


I am not even talking about how it is passed on, because we have no idea at this point how any of the "melanistic" Leos prove out. The question in this thread was do we have a melanistic. I think by these definitions we do, since nowhere does it say that they would be all black, in fact it says they could be "less than all black"(not in those exact words), and it was written that way on many different websites. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

 

[Brhaco]

I entirely understand, and as has been pointed out, there is no standard for the term in the hobby. Hobbyists can call it what they want. My own background is originally in academic herpetology, and I naturally prefer to use the term "melanistic" as it is usually applied in that realm. No field herpetologist would refer to, say, a black pine snake, as "melanistic". The black coloration in lodingi is a multigenetic characteristic of a particular regional population, not an inherited single "trait". Herpetologists refer only to animals like the aforementioned black garters, lacertas, hognoses etc. as melanistic.

Other examples of dark animals that herpetologists do not consider melanistic are: Mexican black kings, certain populations of chuckwallas, black milk snakes, black mexican variable kingsnakes, and the very dark northern water snakes tha I used to find in Northern Indiana as a child.

The one common denominator that separates these two disparate categories is quite simply mode of inheritance. The animals herpetologists consider true melanistics are ALL simple mendelian recessives. So that is why I say that there are no true melanistics in the leopard gecko world. I don't argue that these geckos have "increased melanin"-of course they do!

It is their mode of inheritance that matters to me.

 

[Ccrashca069]

I would have too say that with this being a Morph topic, this thread is going great. Thanks everyone for making this a very good and educational read and sharing your views.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

First of all, there is a difference in 'melanin' and 'pigment'. Albinos definately have 'pigment', but produce no melanin. Since ALL leopard geckos have white bellies, is it safe to assume that this area of their bodies do not contain melanophores? (A chromatophore especially of fishes, amphibians, and reptiles that contains melanin: a black or brown pigment cell).

If this is the case, then it would be quite possible for a 'melanistic' leopard gecko to exist. In the case of other solid black reptile species, perhaps their entire bodies produce melanophores. Do the 'non-melanistic' lacerta or the Easter hog have white bellies? No.

 

[Gregg M]

Since ALL leopard geckos have white bellies, is it safe to assume that this area of their bodies do not contain melanophores? (A chromatophore especially of fishes, amphibians, and reptiles that contains melanin: a black or brown pigment cell).

Its never safe to assume especially when a true example of a melanistic in leopard geckos has not been produced yet...
Besides, there have been leos produced that have had dark colored "birth marks" on their ventrals... So I think that clears that up...

If this is the case, then it would be quite possible for a 'melanistic' leopard gecko to exist. In the case of other solid black reptile species, perhaps their entire bodies produce melanophores. Do the 'non-melanistic' lacerta or the Easter hog have white bellies? No.

Pictures are worth a thousand words...