Eclipse????

[Jeremy Letkey]

Alright, time for all of you genetics experts out there to show just how smart you are. How does the Eclipse trait work??? Is it a simple recessive, a line bred or a dominate trait??? I really don't know. Someone please explain it to me. :main_rolleyes:

Now before you go getting all ahead of yourselves and start typing away and look silly, check out the pictures and info below.


I had a gecko hatched a few days ago. It is from a female Raining Red Stripe with what I have been calling "shatter pattern" eyes.
Here is the adult Female.

I bred this female to a male Eclipse (proven non het evil empire).
This is one of the resulting offspring.

Not too surprising right. Looks like it has "shatter pattern" eyes, normal in apperance het for Raining Red Stripe. Very cool and I am thrilled to have it.



Now skip forward to tonight. I open the incubator and spot this.

Mom is a very nice Raining Red Stripe with normal eyes. Father is the male Eclipse (proven non het evil empire).

It looks just like an Eclipse!!!! "Shatter Pattern" eyes!!!!

and the mustard is off the hotdog... game on. :wall:

 

[Nigel4less]

Oh Sweet Jesus did the Empire Strike Back, Honestly Jeremy I think you may be onto something new. Let me know they come out , man! I would definitely love to prove those out. But honestly there has been so much debate on the Eclipse trait I can't keep up with it anymore.

 

[Okee Reps]

I posted a similar question about a week ago. I have no answers to provide but I have "randomly" hatched out a eclipse as well. I "would" say your shatter pattern eye trait seems to be compatible with the eclipse trait or maybe it's the same trait but I hatched a eclipse when only one parent had the trait (at least to my knowledge). It sure doesn't seem to behave like a recessive trait.

 

[Ccrashca069]

They are all amazing leos. That shatter eye pattern totally rocks!!!!!!!!!

 

[GECKOFREAK]

evil empire...lol

Sorry, I'm no help:main_rolleyes:but they sure do look awesome.

 

[Mateusz Hajdas]

Wow! I must say this is very cool. Maybe your Raining Red Stripes works as a Patternless Stripes and are capable to produce Eclipses. From what I know Eclipse is a pattern mutation, so maybe these geckos are kind of "het Eclipse":main_huh: Did the clutchamates hatched?
Oh, I like "evil empire" term:main_laugh:

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

The first hatchling had a normal cluthmate.
The second and more Eclipse looking baby was a single egg clutch.

I have more in the bator, so we will see what else pops.
The adult females with the "shatter pattern" eyes, have no reverse stripe blood in them to my knowledge. I can trace their lines back 3-5 years. There are a large variety of stripes mixed in there though and that could be the key here.

 

[Halley]

How does the Eclipse trait work??? Is it a simple recessive, a line bred or a dominate trait??? I really don't know. Someone please explain it to me.

I will answer this question first. I believe that eclipse is said to act as a recessive trait, although to my knowledge hasn't been test breed, to confirm it is 100% recessive, technically. However I would say recessive is the only logical answer to what the eclipse allele is. It is definetly not dominate though. If I breed an eclipse to a normal, I seriously doubt my ability to bring you an eclipse. I also find it difficult to believe that they are line breed. If they where, I think it would have been hard for Ron Tremper to release them without people knowing, I guess he has enough room to keep them under wraps, and they could act like the strip phases, where they are technically line breed, but some believe them to act as if they are recessive. However to answer this question, I would say that the eclipse eye, is a recessive allele.

However I would like to bring up the point incomplete penetrance, with the eclipse eye. I don’t know for 100% certainty, if incomplete penetrance can be applied to recessive allele, so somebody correct me if I’m wrong. My guess would be that it could. Incomplete penetrance is where, you have an allele that should show up, but sometimes it will not. One example I know of this is with is with human polydactyly, this is where a human has more than the normal 10 digits, of toes and finger. This allele is dominate however it only shows up 65% of the time, and generally skips generations. I believe I read something where that Marcia for GGG, said in a thread, that she was born with 6 toes, on one of her feet (I apologize if I’m incorrect on this). I’m not aware if she has children or not, but if so, it is possible for one of her grandchildren to have 6 toes on one of their feet, as maybe one of her sons, or daughter, carries the gene without showing it. Also we all know that recessive alleles can also stay masked for many generations, without the knowledge of them even being there. I have to agree with Mateusz on this one that it is possible that there is some common ancestry between the two lines. I’m can’t tell you that I’m completely up the the strip lines, and history. However I would think that somewhere along the lines it is possible to have some common ancestry between, your raining red strips, and the patternless strip, that RT used in his creation of the raptor, which then lead to the eclipse gene becoming discovered. So those are two of the possible explanations that I can come up with, as either it is recessive and just hasn’t show up in your line until now, either out of pure chance, or through incomplete penetrance. The linage might also be hard to track down, as even if you keep records that go back 4-5 years, I wouldn’t know if RT does. I really have no idea. Incomplete penetrance could also be the answer as of why some people believe that the eclipse gene doesn’t act purely as a recessive gene. Although I don’t think many do believe that, it doesn’t act as a recessive allele.

Then I have to think, that we have to take Nigel’s argument into account here. Maybe this is a random mutation in your line. We have 3 stains of albino, why can’t we have two strains of eclipse eye. That makes sense to me. I would think that, that argument would hold up more, than there being some link ancestors in both of your lines. As I personally see that as pretty improbable, however it is possible, that the ancestry is link, and somehow it just showed up in both lines recently. I not sure when the Raining Red Strip, or the Eclipse where released, but my guess is they where some distance apart, and different animals where used in the making of both lines.

I guess the only way to know for sure, is to test breed your eclipse eye, to one of RT’s strain eclipse eyes. This should work, just the same as with albino testing. If you get 100% eclipse eye geckos, then you have the same strain of eclipse, and there is some kind of relationship between the lines. If you get 100% normals, then you have found a new strain. If you get a mixture, then that will be an extremely interesting thing to prove out. It would have been possible for Rainwater, to have found the same strain of albino as Tremper did, and that may have be what we have here. It however ended up being a different strain, and that may also what we have here.

I hope I answered your question.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Wow, thank you for your long well thought out response.

My question was semi-rhetorical though. lol I believe that everything is still theory at this point. No one can say with 100% certainty how this darn trait actually works as of yet. lol

 

[Paco]

Well if we are talking about new Random Eye Traits, Ablerto say's he believes his Marble line to be recessive. He Breed the Marble eyed and got all supposed hets. So he should have results from het the het pairings later this year. I don't know if he has test breed to a Raoptor or Eclipse. But he does feel it's Distinct line because the mutation popped up around the same time as the Raptor and he is 100% sure no Eclipse/Raptors were ever in this breeding program. Halley that was a very well thought out Theory and very interesting.

Like I said in another post I had purchased a Adult LVPA Male and Juvi LVPA Female form Kelli 6 years ago and they both had the Eclipse eye Trait. So did All the Offspring I produced from them. This was long before the Ecplise mutation came about.

 

[Paco]

Ok quick question. Aren't Rainwater and Las Vegas the same strain with differnt names? If so, all these supposed Random eye traits make perfect sense. If this trait showed up 6 years ago, there is no dooubt that there has to be hundreds if not thousands of Rainwater het Eclipse's that were produced then, without the orignal breeders knowing about the trait. When I first bought My LVPA there was nothing know about this eye trait. I was very concerned when I first bought this Male from Kelli becuase I thought it could have been some sort of birth defect that could be passed on to the offspring. Kelli assured me in no way did it effect the animal and that it was in no way a defect. She used the examle of how different every person's eyes are and that we get similar traits as well. I had also found the Eclipse trait in another Male LVPA I was going to buy from another breeder who had purchased it from Kelli, so I spoke to her directly about the animal and ended up buying from her instead.

 

[dprince]

I imagine the eclipse gene to be similar to green eyes (in humans), which is not easilly explained at all. Here's a smidge about human eye color:

Eye Color Genetics
Blue Eyes Happen When At Least Two Genes Do Not Work
© Barry Starr

Oct 17, 2007

Recent work points to the OCA2 gene as the key gene in deciding between brown and other color eyes. The green eye gene has not yet been found.

What Is Eye Color?
Eye color is really the result of how much pigment is in the front part of the iris of the eye. Lots of pigment gives brown eyes, some gives green eyes and little or no pigment leads to blue eyes.

The amount of pigment in this part of the eye is determined by at least two genes (and probably more). The dominant gene in eye color is called OCA2.

OCA2 Distinguishes Brown from Blue
OCA2 is like a lot of other genes in that it comes in at least two forms—a working and a nonworking version. As long as someone has at least one working version, they’ll have brown eyes. (Remember we have two copies of most of our genes—one from mom and one from dad.)

This is why brown eyes are said to be dominant over blue. It takes just one good OCA2 gene to end up with brown eyes.

A recent study by Sturm and associates at the Institute for Molecular Bioscience at the University of Queensland in Australia definitively identified OCA2 as the key brown eye gene. The researchers found that people with blue eyes had one of at least three different changes in the OCA2 gene that led to not having brown eyes.

Green Eyes vs. Blue
Scientists still don’t know exactly how green eyes happen. They suspect that a separate gene causes green eyes and have even named this unidentified gene gey (green eye). OCA2 and gey are thought to work together to produce brown, green, and blue eyes.

There Are More Than Two Genes Involved in Eye Color
Scientists have suspected for a long time that more than two genes are involved in eye color. For example, there are more colors than just brown, green, and blue and OCA2 and gey do not explain these other colors very well.

Also, two blue-eyed parents can sometimes have a brown-eyed child. This shouldn’t be possible but does happen. The best explanation is that there is another gene involved.

Eye color can also be affected by genes that affect pigmentation elsewhere. People with albinism tend to have light eyes. People with Waardenburg syndrome can have part or all of one or both eyes end up blue.

The genetics of eye color is very complicated but is becoming better understood. Scientists continue to make progress but it will be some time before expectant parents can confidently predict the eye color of their future children.

This makes the most sense to me, since the eclipse gene acts recessively, but not as a simple recessive, in my experience. I've produced some AMAZING APTORS from two full ruby eyed parents. Using human eye color as a background, it also helps *possibly* explain why there are so many variations in leopard geckos as well.

Here's another link with some pictures of human eye colors (for reference)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color

It makes me wonder if leopard gecko eye color is polygenic after all, even if it sometimes behaves in a dominant or recessive manner? :main_huh: Great question Jeremy, and great responses. :main_yes:

 

[Halley]

Aren't Rainwater and Las Vegas the same strain with differnt names?

Yes

two blue-eyed parents can sometimes have a brown-eyed child. This shouldn’t be possible but does happen. The best explanation is that there is another gene involved.

I guess I would see this more related to an eclipse eye. As stated above Debbie has hatched out A.P.T.O.R.s from full ruby eyed parents, this in my point of view, seems to be in about the same ballpark. I still think that the best explanation for this is incomplete penetrance. I know when Debbie, sells A.P.T.O.R.s that are from R.A.P.T.O.R. pairings, she sell them as 100% het R.A.P.T.O.R. I’m sure that at one point or another, there was some test breeding done, to confirm that these specimens where in fact het for the eclipse trait. So assuming this, would it not make perfect sense that the offspring carries the trait, but for some reason just doesn’t show it. I guess the only problem with this theory is that, the specimens that come out of those pairing act het, instead of homozygous. That is what doesn’t make sense. Because they should breed 100% raptors, unless for some reason the offspring don’t show the trait either. This indicates to me, that kind of like the green eye, gene, in which we don’t know about yet, maybe there is a gene that just blocks the eclipse gene from showing. Which bring me to my next point.

In eyes of all colors, the iris pigment epithelium contains the black pigment, eumelanin

Do you think that it is possible for the eclipse eye, to just have a gene, to where it makes it show just the black pigmentation? I wonder this, because there may be two gene involved in this. One that allows the whole eye to show up black. Then maybe there is one that blocks a certain amount from showing, and maybe this is how we get snakes eyes. In my opinion there should be some way, to predict which animals will produce snake eyes, and which will produce full eye, animals. As far as I know, there is none, and I can’t come up with a way to tell you either, as it seems to be totally random. But if in fact, there are 2 genes that cause this (does anything really make sense?) then there should be a way to predict it. It will not act simply recessive, Dom, or co-dom, obviously.
If leopard geckos had sex chromosomes, I think I could explain it, but they don’t. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (well I guess it makes breeding easier) I wonder if maybe there is another complicated thing going on here. I doubt we will ever no, without performing DNA starting on leopard geckos, as it seems that they have having a hard time, figuring it out in humans with that tool. I guess we have that we have the ability to test breed though, which is hard to do with humans, unless you get lucky, and find a human couple, with the traits that you want.

P.S.

I was also reading on RT site, about the new eye mutation that came out of his Diablo Blanco project. Called the Xanthic, I think. I think that this will be an interesting trait to prove out. As well as combining it with the eclipse gene. It would be nice to have a gecko with dirty blonde eyes wouldn’t it? So maybe leopard gecko eye traits, are way more complicated, and to complex for us to be able to truly understand.

I’m finding this discussion extremely interesting. Please keeps the posts coming.

 

[godzillizard]

These strange eyes have been randomly occuring in leos for years--It makes me wonder how many generations it took rats and mice (in captivity) to lose all their eye pigment--might it have something to do with the fact that these guys haven't had any exposure to sunlight for 30 some generations??? I believe its an effect of numerous triggers/genes--for all we know, even incubation temperature could have an effect on how this eye trait is expressed...

On those "xanthics"--I believe that they are "banana" blazings that turned out extra banana-y because of the super tang trait from the Raptor bloodline--if you're going to line-breed Diablos to be solid white without any yellow, why not also line-breed the opposite direction and see what occurs...

 

[KelliH]

You can make a "home made" Eclipse (that's how I made my Radar Bell) but once ya got one you can breed it as if it was a recessive trait. Woo hooo more confusion!

 

[Halley]

might it have something to do with the fact that these guys haven't had any exposure to sunlight for 30 some generations???

I don't know, are you saying kidda like an evolution thing that has been going on, in the genome for some time now. Because they don't really need it? I don't know? Actually if you are referring to Leos, instead of mice. I would say no. Leos are nocturnal, so they don't need light anyways. And my thought would be that light, either from bulbs, or sun, would cause you to need the same organs to process it, anyways. I don't know this for sure and maybe you are right. It is a good thought though, and I would love to hear more opinions on this subject, as I’ very possibly wrong.

are "banana" blazings that turned out extra banana-y because of the super tang trait from the Raptor bloodline

Aren't Diablo Blanco (the morph, that the Xanthic eye gene came out of) just a blizzard x R.A.P.T.O.R., is there any Patty gene in them? Isn't a Banana Blizzard a Patty x Blizzard? I do think it would be a neat project to see if anything comes out of breeding for more yellow, than white. I have noticed some of RT Diablo Blanco, are quite yellow, actually most of them seem to be.

You can make a "home made" Eclipse (that's how I made my Radar Bell) but once ya got one you can breed it as if it was a recessive trait. Woo hooo more confusion!

Yup, you confused me. How do you make a home made one? Just curious, is it because you already have the gene? Like the one that Paco stated above? If you don’t have the gene don’t you have to purchase an animal, with it? If not, is it just line breed?

 

[dprince]

How do you make a home made one? Just curious, is it because you already have the gene? Like the one that Paco stated above? If you don’t have the gene don’t you have to purchase an animal, with it? If not, is it just line breed?

I think Dan Poe summarized it very well here (hope this is OK Dan): http://www.geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=202425&postcount=5

Other breeders have had similar results. Which leads me to the belief that several genes are responsible for eye color...........polygenic trait (even though it behaves a certain way ie: recessive).........no wonder this is so tough and interesting!!

 

[Halley]

Okay, so somehow or another it is believe that the strip genes, somehow unlock, so to speak, the eye genes? Is this correct?

 

[Gazz]

IMO it's eclipse based on the white was nose of the offspring.Though your RRS in pic-1 dosen't have much of a white wash nose it dose look to be there.And unlike RT's eclipse RRS's haven't had the years of back breeding/inbreeding'etc to hinance the white wash nose the way we see on Tremper anstery eclipse..So you wouldn't exsect them to have that much of a white wash nose.But the offspring would show it strat off being dad was a tremper line eclipse.I mean if eclipse is linked to stripe crossing then why wouldn't eclipse show it's self in a RRS with out going near a Tremper eclipse.I think your RRS is eclipse I think it just a case of differant road same destination.Coz RRS is RW_albino you would expect the eye in albino form to look like your female as Rainwaters are known for there dark eyes.Unlike tremper i don't think we'll ever see RW_albino eclipse with blazzing red eyes.Just like you girl is just what i'd expect of a RW_albino eclipse.

Like i said just my opinion but if they click like that by the look of your offspring.Last offspring looks just like a eclipse patternless striped.I'd put them in the same boat as (eclipse) this eye thing is head doing enought.So you don't have to wait along for you RW_albino eclipse patternless striped.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Wow Debbie, those articles are great! I guess we like for Leopard gecko genetics to be simple so they're easier for us to understand. It would make sense it there were more than one gene that played a part in Leos as well. The solid eyes are thought to be linked to other genes for pattern and they don't all act as single recessives either. I'll make myself an example of why these eye genes aren't as easy to replicate as some may think and as why they can seem to pop up randomly. I have red hair, green eyes, and almost no colored pigment in my skin. My parents both have dark brown hair, light brown eyes, and medium complexions. Everyone else in our living extended family looks like them. Each of my parents had one grandmother with red hair and green eyes, so essentially they were possible hets for both traits. Red hair and green eyes are less dominant than other colors and red hair tends to skip generations. So even if they had more children, their chances of having another with red hair and green eyes would be slim. Even if I had a child with another redhead, there's a big possibility of not having a red haired, green eyed child (too many other more dominant genetic possibilities) but it would be a better chance than with someone without red hair and green eyes so it could look line bred. I hope that made sense!