Enigmas and all of the threads lately

[o0 Ryan 0o]

First off, I'm not trying to poke any nerves here...they're poking mine. The forum has been basically dramatizing the whole situation lately and I don't want to see it happen. I agree with one of Paul's posts I remember reading, these guys are by far the most interesting and intriguing morph yet. So I don't really like reading these threads. I'm glad some of us aren't freaking out like others.

My experience is limited with these guys so far, but here is my 2 cents. We have 3 males, including a new beefcake we just got from Paul. Our het Bell is by far the worst, he will spin, wobble, and look out of it (but he's been much better now). Our het Tremper is very mild, he will just twist his head back oddly, no spinning (rarely does this anymore). The new Bell Enigma from Paul has been extremely normal and calm. I haven't been around him much since he's new, but he seems 100% fine even after shipping. Paul, you would know best here.

Now the biggie...the only time either exhibits the issues are when they're under stress. When i slide the tubs out, the noise always startles them and they show the issues. When I lift open their hides, they do it sometimes. When I spray with the water bottles they're not thrilled. Occasionally when I hold them they freak a little. Now the otherwise...otherwise they're perfectly normal. I've watched them cruse around in their tubs, eat and breed. All of which looked completely normal. They never just spin or act weird for no reason, it's always provoked. They eat, poop, breed, sleep and grow just like any other gecko we have.

They're small brained animals that I don't think will ever truly be used to humans. So yes, you feeding and looking at them is going to stress them, at least initially. Hatchlings I can understand more so than any. However, I did read that they can develop the issues later. We haven't hatched any yet, but ours came with the issues and have since improved a bunch. From what I gather from everyone I talked to, they seem to grow out of it as well which is great.

I truly think we make the issues worse on them from the worried threads. We're concerned and we're actually stressing them more by constantly looking/checking on them. I'm not trying to deny that there is an issue, I definitely think there is something odd going on. My hang up though, it doesn't seem to affect their life. I understand these are huge investments and you want the best for them, that's great, just don't make a stink and confuse the public.

I'm really glad the latest thread is heading in the right direction though. I don't want people to be upset, I just want there to be an understanding. Hopefully we can get there eventually with some help. Otherwise, I say don't think so darn hard for now and don't bug them so much. We'll figure it out soon. Start to worry when it's really affecting their health. I've yet to see this though.

Anyways, that's all I really had to say. I really didn't feel like bringing it up on the main boards because I know I will get no where. I'm just happy to be working with them. We got a late start, but we should start hatching some soon. It's going to be fun! Thanks for reading guys.

 

[PaulSage]

First off, I'm not trying to poke any nerves here...they're poking mine. The forum has been basically dramatizing the whole situation lately and I don't want to see it happen. I agree with one of Paul's posts I remember reading, these guys are by far the most interesting and intriguing morph yet. So I don't really like reading these threads. I'm glad some of us aren't freaking out like others.

I agree; the hype and panic are getting a little annoying. I'm going to do my best as time permits to try to calm people down. I think it would be in the best interests of some of the "quiet" breeders to share their findings to get things out in the open and prevent "scaring" people away from the morph.

My experience is limited with these guys so far, but here is my 2 cents. We have 3 males, including a new beefcake we just got from Paul. Our het Bell is by far the worst, he will spin, wobble, and look out of it (but he's been much better now). Our het Tremper is very mild, he will just twist his head back oddly, no spinning (rarely does this anymore). The new Bell Enigma from Paul has been extremely normal and calm. I haven't been around him much since he's new, but he seems 100% fine even after shipping. Paul, you would know best here.

He did go through a phase shortly after I first started breeding him when he would startle. He's usually a total pig at the food dish, and that's when he'd get excited and occasionally wig out, but it was never more than a missed footing here and there. I haven't seen him do it at all after moving to TX last summer, and am glad to hear that shipping hasn't appeared to aggravate any potential underlying issues.

Now the biggie...the only time either exhibits the issues are when they're under stress. When i slide the tubs out, the noise always startles them and they show the issues. When I lift open their hides, they do it sometimes. When I spray with the water bottles they're not thrilled. Occasionally when I hold them they freak a little. Now the otherwise...otherwise they're perfectly normal. I've watched them cruse around in their tubs, eat and breed. All of which looked completely normal. They never just spin or act weird for no reason, it's always provoked. They eat, poop, breed, sleep and grow just like any other gecko we have.

I agree with this. Hence my reference to fainting goats in another Enigma thread. :main_laugh:

They're small brained animals that I don't think will ever truly be used to humans. So yes, you feeding and looking at them is going to stress them, at least initially. Hatchlings I can understand more so than any. However, I did read that they can develop the issues later. We haven't hatched any yet, but ours came with the issues and have since improved a bunch. From what I gather from everyone I talked to, they seem to grow out of it as well which is great.

So far it seems that it can develop with age, come and go in phases, and be grown out of, so I have been expecting people whom have purchased Enigmas from me to pop up and notify me of an issue. I guess I'm just lucky that it hasn't happened yet.

I truly think we make the issues worse on them from the worried threads. We're concerned and we're actually stressing them more by constantly looking/checking on them. I'm not trying to deny that there is an issue, I definitely think there is something odd going on. My hang up though, it doesn't seem to affect their life. I understand these are huge investments and you want the best for them, that's great, just don't make a stink and confuse the public.

The one I referenced in the other recent thread who just started developing rather significant issues is still eating and crapping even though he's seemingly incapable of maintaining eye contact the way a lot of younger geckos do when they just stare at you after opening their tubs.

I'm really glad the latest thread is heading in the right direction though. I don't want people to be upset, I just want there to be an understanding. Hopefully we can get there eventually with some help. Otherwise, I say don't think so darn hard for now and don't bug them so much. We'll figure it out soon. Start to worry when it's really affecting their health. I've yet to see this though.

Exactly. Adding to the frustration are some of the more vocal people who have comparatively little experience with the Enigmas yet are making sweeping generalizations about the morph as a whole. Is it just me, or is it mostly the Europeans? Perhaps it's related to the additional shipping stress? I dunno.

Anyways, that's all I really had to say. I really didn't feel like bringing it up on the main boards because I know I will get no where. I'm just happy to be working with them. We got a late start, but we should start hatching some soon. It's going to be fun! Thanks for reading guys.

Even though I'm getting out of geckos, I still intend on trying to keep up with what's going on with the Enigmas and helping when/where I can. I have a feeling my utility will be rather short lived though and that eventually people will just stop listening to me. Oh well. lol

 

[o0 Ryan 0o]

Thanks Paul. I'm glad we seem to be on the same page here. You're right I should really speak up some more, but we haven't hatched any yet. Oh well, my experience is just that, experience regardless of it's size.

The Europeans seem to have banded together here. I know it's for the good, but they're really creating a stir. It could be the shipping...or that their English isn't as good and this all sounds worse than what it really is

The bottom line though, I don't want people to be upset or scared. I'm really excited about the Enigmas and none of this seems worth the stink.

 

[KelliH]

Fainting Enigmas lol

Great post Ryan.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Thanks for posting your feelings so candidly, Ryan... and Paul, your responses are insightful. I love you guys.

I have yet to produce an Enigma, and only one of mine exhibit a very slight 'oddity' since I started breeding him. I can't say what I will do if and when I hatch out any with problems.

I think that at this time, the biggest thing that is bothering me about all this is how a rift has developed amongst some breeders. Maybe I'm living in la-la land, but it makes me so sad that breeders who used to be friends are now adversaries because of a gecko morph.

We need to talk to each other about these issues so we can collectively come up with answers and a plan without hate mail or telephone yelling matches. We are ALL affected by this... whether we are buying or selling Enigmas.

Complaining about issues without even offering ideas for solutions is fruitless. Blaming and accusing each other will not solve anything. I wish we could all get together and 'brainstorm', and actually take on assignments to look in to specific resources that could possibly help us understand what's going on with this 'special' morph.

 

[PaulSage]

Complaining about issues without even offering ideas for solutions is fruitless. Blaming and accusing each other will not solve anything. I wish we could all get together and 'brainstorm', and actually take on assignments to look in to specific resources that could possibly help us understand what's going on with this 'special' morph.

Speaking of assignments... Once Marcia mentioned the possibility of a study being put together for the Enigmas I pretty much came to the decision that I would be willing to donate most/all of the Enigmas I have hatched since moving to TX--regardless of whether or not they exhibit any issues. My concern, however, is that ideally I will have sold the last of my geckos in 3-4 weeks, but I still have hatchlings and a few eggs left in the incubator. I will need to be spending a considerable amount of time back in WI this summer to deal with some family issues and won't be able to have any geckos left behind. I'm basically looking for someone willing to provide temporary care for the Enigmas I'm willing to donate to the study until said study commences. I'd guess that it wouldn't be more than 20-25 all together, but I realize that's a significant amount of time and rack space. For obvious reason, I don't want to post such a solicitation publicly.

I hope that makes sense. I've been completely swamped this week and haven't slept since Tuesday night. I doubt I've had more than ten hours of sleep total since Sunday, so I'm probably borderline incoherent. :main_lipsrsealed:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well, I got this PM from one of the GF members. I'm not sure how to respond yet:

not breeding enigmas

Well, the current thread is one of the final nails in the coffin of the enigma as a commercially viable morph IMHO. I don't think I'm going to bother breeding mine. I'm going to get them out of the tubs and put them in some nicely decorated desert terrariums so they can live a semi-normal life and be enjoyed as pets, albeit strange ones. I can't envision anyone who knows about these issues actually buying one, certainly not for more than a couple hundred bucks.

It's too bad, as they have the potential to produce amazing looking geckos, but I am not going to tell people "only some of them do it", etc... It seems that Matt and Alberto from A&M won't even post because they're hatching hundreds of enigmas this year and want to sell them. Alberto does have a disclaimer on his website. Interesting. I predict the enigma market will soon completely tank, and that some breeders may not be looked upon favorably for mass producing enigmas when they knew about the problems. I could be wrong of course.

As far as the non-enigma siblings carrying the gene, I think that's pretty dangerous for all leopard gecko morphs as a whole. If that wacky gene gets into everything else it's gonna be a nightmare. Pretty soon ads will say "no enigma blood", etc...

So perhaps it's a good thing that neither of us has hatched one yet. I recommend that given your current situation, you don't need the extra hassle that enigmas can bring. I know it's tempting, but I'd rather be one of the people who can say "Yeah, I bought a few and was really excited about breeding them, but I felt it was best not to work with a morph that has such problems".

 

[KelliH]

So who sent the pm? And how dare they tell you that because of your "current situation" you should not breed your Enigmas! Is this person a friend of yours?

 

[stevehiss]

Marcia,

I as well would like to know who sent you that PM. As far as I am concerned, it is no one elses business who does what with their own animals.

 

[KelliH]

http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=19693

 

[PaulSage]

not breeding enigmas

Well, the current thread is one of the final nails in the coffin of the enigma as a commercially viable morph IMHO. I don't think I'm going to bother breeding mine. I'm going to get them out of the tubs and put them in some nicely decorated desert terrariums so they can live a semi-normal life and be enjoyed as pets, albeit strange ones. I can't envision anyone who knows about these issues actually buying one, certainly not for more than a couple hundred bucks.

It's too bad, as they have the potential to produce amazing looking geckos, but I am not going to tell people "only some of them do it", etc... It seems that Matt and Alberto from A&M won't even post because they're hatching hundreds of enigmas this year and want to sell them. Alberto does have a disclaimer on his website. Interesting. I predict the enigma market will soon completely tank, and that some breeders may not be looked upon favorably for mass producing enigmas when they knew about the problems. I could be wrong of course.

As far as the non-enigma siblings carrying the gene, I think that's pretty dangerous for all leopard gecko morphs as a whole. If that wacky gene gets into everything else it's gonna be a nightmare. Pretty soon ads will say "no enigma blood", etc...

So perhaps it's a good thing that neither of us has hatched one yet. I recommend that given your current situation, you don't need the extra hassle that enigmas can bring. I know it's tempting, but I'd rather be one of the people who can say "Yeah, I bought a few and was really excited about breeding them, but I felt it was best not to work with a morph that has such problems".

Yeah... it's great to be so morally superior but whoever said that might want to check back in with reality once in a while--provided that they haven't become so high and mighty that reality is at an unattainable distance.

Here's why I say that.

SOME PEOPLE are going to continue breeding and selling the morph REGARDLESS of any potential issues. No one can put a stop to that. It's going to happen; it's reality. You can either accept it or continue thinking that some delusional crusade is actually going to yield its desired result. SO, given that Enigmas are going to continue to be produced and sold by at least some breeders, why not try taking a more proactive approach in contributing to solving the puzzle instead of condemning everyone who is breeding them?

 

[Mel&Keith]

Marcia,

I as well would like to know who sent you that PM. As far as I am concerned, it is no one elses business who does what with their own animals.

I second this. I'd like to know who said that as well but if you don't want to post it I understand.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

It was Jason Dunn... posts as lytlesnake.

I was so upset from this PM that I had to walk away from the computer to think about how to respond to him. I still don't know how, or if I even will, respond.

 

[Mel&Keith]

I figured that was who. I'm out of the loop but am I correct in assuming he got his messed up Enigmas from Mike Panchini?

I think it's going to be an interesting year as far as marketing and sales go. I can only guess that Matt, Alberto, and Paul A. are going to have a lot of Enigmas for sale.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I don't know who he got his Enigmas from, and I personally don'te give a crap what Matt, Alberto, and PaulNJ do. It's just that for once in my life, I honestly don't know what to say to this guy! Part of me wants to go off on him and tell him to fuck off and mind his own business, and the other part of me wants to handle this as professionally and diplomatically as possible.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Don't answer him tonight. You're great at coming up will heart felt yet incredibly diplomatic answers so I'm sure you'll come up with something if you give it time. Do you want me to send him a random email that just says, "Fuck you!"? LOL

 

[nwheat]

Wow.

Well, as I was going to reply earlier (before I realized I had to leave right now for lab): I love my enigmas and I, too, am really excited to hatch out my first!! Mine both seem totally fine. They've never done anything strange in the time they've been here. I absolutely love them.

Anyway - Wed I have lab until 5:40 - then I have to dddrrrrrriiiiiivvvvve. I may get home by about 6:00 or so, but the kids have baseball games on Tues and Thurs - not Wed - which means my husband will want to do a family dinner. I'll see what I can catch, though!

As for little snake - that about says it all, doesn't it? Yes I've had some wine. I love the RR.

 

[dprince]

BWHAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Little snake. :main_evilgrin:

I agree with Mel, Marcia. Give it a night before responding. I know when I'm especially pissed, time helps a bunch.

I can understand people being disappointed that something they paid a buttload of money for didn't work out. Sucks, but that's life. However, bitterness is a poison pill you swallow hoping others will die. Being pissy about it without looking for solutions or answers is just stupid dumb. :main_thumbsdown:

 

[Mel&Keith]

I almost think it's funny that we haven't had any Enigma luck this season yet. The last 2 eggs from the female who laid all of the healthy Jungles were both Enigmas with eyelid deformities (one very severe) because she quit eating when she started laying so by the end she was depleted of vitamins I guess. So we'll see about those, I'm trying my best to save them. The funny thing is that the Rev Stripe albino that we've gotten all of the gorgeous Aptors from was free from a friend. Oh, odds...LOL!

 

[PaulSage]

I figured that was who. I'm out of the loop but am I correct in assuming he got his messed up Enigmas from Mike Panchini?

He posted somewhere that he has bought Enigmas from three different people (including Kelli and I) but the 'defective' one he has is not from Kelli or I. I didn't know who else he got one from.