Ethical? Or Rant & Rave?

[Golden Gate Geckos]

This has been bugging me for a L-O-N-G time. It is NOT pointed towards any one individual, so please don't send me any 'whine-o-grams' about being singled out or picked on.

I don't have a problem with any breeder selling their geckos wholesale to a company that retails them. What I DO have a problem with is breeders selling their geckos at wholesale prices to the public. When breeders sell their surplus geckos at wholesale prices to the general public at shows, on classified ads, and on their websites, it really pisses me off.

When breeders sell at wholesale prices to the public, not only are they selling themselves short, but they are literally pulling the rug out from under the rest of us. They are ruining the market. They are making it impossible for those of us who have worked just as hard (or harder) to make ends meet. It shows little or no regard to the community.

If breeders have a large inventory of surplus animals, why not just discretely sell them wholesale to one of the many companies that deal with purchasing wholesale lots? Why do you put them on your tables at shows, on the web classifieds, or on your websites at wholesale prices? There are plenty of businesses that deal specifically with wholesale animals! Why not just quietly sell your geckos that way, and not flood the market?

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

I 100% totally agree. I for one am pro buying space on the Forums to place an add for geckos. i think that having a fee to go along with posting on here will help keep away people selling geckos at a whole sale price as well as help the site out in general. i have had this discussion for a while with some people (not mentioning names) and everyone that i have talked to seems to think that this would be a good idea.

I personally have not posted in the classified section well due to i have nothing to sell but you better believe that i am more then happy to cough up some extra cash to post a classified. You have to do it in the paper and magazines why not here as well.

Just to go off topic here just for a min, i also believe that if buyers are not ready to have geckos shipped, they should out of the kindness of their hear maybe give a few bucks to the breeder thats keeping your gecko. I find it morally wrong to have someone else keep your geckos until weather conditions are right and not help out with feeding them. I have sent extra money to those that have kept my geckos for a longer then desired period and i find that to be just fine.

Sorry but this issue has been bothering me for about a month now.

 

[thestack510]

I completely agree that people should not undercut the market. They're shooting themselves and all the other breeders in the feet. Its not easy to keep the value up on Leos because of how prolific they are. It's next to impossible to stay on the cutting edge of Leo breeding. There's not much we can do about it though. I've seen some prices recently for things I paid a whole lot more for that drive me crazy. I love my Leos though, I don't have any regrets. I wish the market were more stable, no doubt about that. I have no idea where the Leo market is headed. It's a little unnerving. If I were doing this strictly for profit and not so much for my own enjoyment I would probably be pretty upset. I think wholesale prices should be offered only on package deals.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I think wholesale prices should be offered only on package deals.

Agreed. There are plenty of reptile companies out there that will buy wholesale lots, so why not just quietly sell your excess geckos to them instead of ruining the market by selling them directly to the public at wholesale prices?

 

[Gregg M]

You know what it boils down to Marcia??? It boils down to certain breeders producing way too many animals and not giving a crap about you, me, or anyone else in the hobby... What better way to unload a crap load of geckos than to put a super cheap price tag on them... Fortunatly, not all of us sell wholesale to the public... Most breeders are not doing "fire sales"... I think breeders that go the path of selling wholesale to the public are on their way out and do not care much about anything...

I will not bash anyone or call anyone out here, but I certainly will not support or defend those who do this...

Just to go off topic here just for a min, i also believe that if buyers are not ready to have geckos shipped, they should out of the kindness of their hear maybe give a few bucks to the breeder thats keeping your gecko. I find it morally wrong to have someone else keep your geckos until weather conditions are right and not help out with feeding them. I have sent extra money to those that have kept my geckos for a longer then desired period and i find that to be just fine.

Sorry but this issue has been bothering me for about a month now.

I think ya went too far here bro... LOL... I know as someone who has held onto leos for buyers, I would never ask for or expect to get money to house them until weather is proper for shipping or payment is complete...

 

[whkrazyk]

i like the ideas of thrying to do group sales if you have too many, like how TUG does there breeder packages, selling loads of geckos at dirt cheap prices will only give people that cant afford alot of geckos to buy those, then breed there own, and now you have an increase of geckos being prodused that will only make the trade even worst off....just my thought

 

[spykerherps]

cant agree more with everyone although I'm unclear on what hauseremt ment about extra money.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Just to go off topic here just for a min, i also believe that if buyers are not ready to have geckos shipped, they should out of the kindness of their hear maybe give a few bucks to the breeder thats keeping your gecko. I find it morally wrong to have someone else keep your geckos until weather conditions are right and not help out with feeding them. I have sent extra money to those that have kept my geckos for a longer then desired period and i find that to be just fine.

Sorry but this issue has been bothering me for about a month now.

I can tell you with complete certainty that you're the exception. I don't know that there's another seller on here that would ask for money because they have to toss your leo a few mealworms until the temps start going up. Would you figure out the price per mealworm and calculate how many worms were put in the worm dish so you would know what to charge? :main_laugh: Ultimately, it's the seller's call if that gecko gets shipped or not. So how do you figure the weather is any more the buyer's fault? If you threw your seller a bone, then you're a heck-of-a nice guy. :main_yes:

Back on topic, I think Gregg's right. These cut-throats won't be around very long, because when they're completely honest with themselves, they can't afford to be.

 

[Halley]

I couldn’t agree with you more, Marcia

 

[ajveachster]

Example situation for tossing a few extra dollars to the breeder you bought from...this is from experience.
We found the leos we wanted, but had to wait on our rack to come in. We offered a bit extra to the breeders to help defray costs since they were waiting on us to ship.
As far as wholesale prices to the public...If somebody is offloading that much inventory, perhaps they are producing beyond their means. I hope people look into this before they start breeding. Of course, in any trade you have both the honest and dishonest.

 

[paintedlizards]

I agree as well... however... I would not offer to pay extra for a gecko being held for me. Because I'd assume that when I asked the person to hold it that they took that into account- also, if I am unable to take the gecko I tell them ASAP i dont tire kick for weeks...

as for wholesale.


There is a small hobby petshop in a nearby town to me - they have a reptile room and mostly deal in snakes and occasionally dragons or leo's. They know I have several eggs incubating right now and the man is very nice. He inquired as to if I'd have any 'bread and butter' type leo's for sale in the spring and offered me 5.00 a gecko if I wanted to pass him any. he specifically said he did not want anything exciting or different. just the classic leo.

Perhaps this should be a different post but what is your oppinion on THAT . They would mostly be tangerines but het's and he knows this. What do you do in that situation? I'm torn. On one hand I feel that I was prepared to keep ALL of this years offspring if need be- I bred them after all. BUT how do you feel about whole-sale on the SMALL scale. He's talking maybe 15 geckos over the course of the spring/summer as he doesnt keep more than 2 at a time. He has a gecko tank with tile and hides ect that is really nice. i think its prob. a 20 long or a 30 ( do they exist?) .. anyway just a thought.

 

[acpart]

I agree as well... however... I would not offer to pay extra for a gecko being held for me. Because I'd assume that when I asked the person to hold it that they took that into account- also, if I am unable to take the gecko I tell them ASAP i dont tire kick for weeks...

as for wholesale.


There is a small hobby petshop in a nearby town to me - they have a reptile room and mostly deal in snakes and occasionally dragons or leo's. They know I have several eggs incubating right now and the man is very nice. He inquired as to if I'd have any 'bread and butter' type leo's for sale in the spring and offered me 5.00 a gecko if I wanted to pass him any. he specifically said he did not want anything exciting or different. just the classic leo.

Perhaps this should be a different post but what is your oppinion on THAT . They would mostly be tangerines but het's and he knows this. What do you do in that situation? I'm torn. On one hand I feel that I was prepared to keep ALL of this years offspring if need be- I bred them after all. BUT how do you feel about whole-sale on the SMALL scale. He's talking maybe 15 geckos over the course of the spring/summer as he doesnt keep more than 2 at a time. He has a gecko tank with tile and hides ect that is really nice. i think its prob. a 20 long or a 30 ( do they exist?) .. anyway just a thought.

I would make him a counteroffer and see what he says. You could i;nquire how much he's planning to sell the geckos for. I sell geckos to local pet shops for $25.

Aliza

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Christina, what you're describing is a private sale. In that situation, only you and the Store Manager know what was paid for your bunch. That practice isn't in question here, although I do think $5 per is a too low.

Marcia's point is sellers doing wholesale deals to the public like here in the classifieds, or on like Kingsnake or something. That really does drive the price down to nearly nothing.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia's point is sellers doing wholesale deals to the public like here in the classifieds, or on like Kingsnake or something. That really does drive the price down to nearly nothing.

This IS my point. People can sell their geckos at any price they want in a private sale or in wholesale lots. It just hurts the rest of us when surplus geckos are sold on classifieds and at shows at wholesale prices to the public!

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Well what i meant was, i bought geckos from people. It's about 15 degrees where i'm at. I also had a rack being shipped from AP. So the breeders were kind enough to hold on to the geckos until i was able to get my rack and the weather cleared up. I thought it was only fair to toss them a couple extra bucks to help them out. Pretty much they are feeding and taking care of a gecko that has been purchased. I felt as if it was my right to contribute to feeding and housing a gecko that should be at my house but weather and other conditions made the shipment be pushed back.

I was just being nice. If i purchased from anyone i would do the same. Do i expect that in return no but karma does come around and bite people in the butt. So i want to spread all that good karma around and hope someone else would take it upon them selves to do the same.

 

[Baoh]

This has been bugging me for a L-O-N-G time. It is NOT pointed towards any one individual, so please don't send me any 'whine-o-grams' about being singled out or picked on.

I don't have a problem with any breeder selling their geckos wholesale to a company that retails them. What I DO have a problem with is breeders selling their geckos at wholesale prices to the public. When breeders sell their surplus geckos at wholesale prices to the general public at shows, on classified ads, and on their websites, it really pisses me off.

When breeders sell at wholesale prices to the public, not only are they selling themselves short, but they are literally pulling the rug out from under the rest of us. They are ruining the market. They are making it impossible for those of us who have worked just as hard (or harder) to make ends meet. It shows little or no regard to the community.

If breeders have a large inventory of surplus animals, why not just discretely sell them wholesale to one of the many companies that deal with purchasing wholesale lots? Why do you put them on your tables at shows, on the web classifieds, or on your websites at wholesale prices? There are plenty of businesses that deal specifically with wholesale animals! Why not just quietly sell your geckos that way, and not flood the market?

Definitely a rant more so than an issue of ethics.

Anybody can sell his or her own property for any price they like as far as these geckos go. Now, *I* would prefer that they not flood the market, but that is also because I have an interest or stake in the market. Additionally, my preference does not get to dictate the behavior of others as far as what they decide to set for prices.

Yes, it devalues morphs/traits. Yes, it really screws up the overall market. In my opinion, this is worse online than at shows, as the ripple effect is far more widespread.

However, there also needs to be some consideration for larger projects or refinement work that may take and, more to the point, produce many animals that are simply not of use to that person's goals. Unloading them for lower prices is one viable way for that person to make room. Unfortunately, that also involves releasing morphs and genes to the general market that make it more difficult for each product to hold its value.

If Bobby Teenager starts popping out Novas or RADARs because he dropped a hundred dollars or less on a colony of cheap-o Enigmas or hets, it is fortunate for him. If a hundred kids like him pull off the same feat, then the morph smiths out there will take a hit as well as the folks trying to play catch-up in the first and second seasons of release. Then the market drops like a rock and that morph is worth crappola unless an animal is an extreme exception among exceptions. Of course, then the buyers have to ask themselves, especially in this economy, if it's worth it to spend a grand or nearly so on a SHTCT that has a nearly complete carrot tail when they happened across one that has a 75% CT by luck for $50 at a local pet shop. You have to look at scale. If a 75% "random" CT animal goes for $50, is it worth it for that person to drop another $700 or whatever to get the 80-90+% CT animal? And for how many animals are produced by the better projects involving those better animals, will they all be sold? How quickly? What kind of strain does that put on the breeder? All of this and more comes into play, I think.

Also, I do not claim to know the motivations or circumstances behind a particular "unloading" of geckos. Some people fall upon hard times. Especially now. Some people anticipated better sales and are faced with the reality of being overwhelmed. Some people get caught after a huge market downswing and have nowhere to go beyond cutting their losses. I cannot say whether that is a terrible set of practices. I can say it's a thorn in my side, yes, but other people have bigger problems and no one owes me any explanation beyond not BSing me about what I pay my own money for.

The simple answer to your last question is that they do not have to. That's why.

 

[MeiK]

Where I completely understand what you are saying (the OP) i have to disagree...

Although my real job is being killed RIGHT NOW by basically the same issue - It's just the way Capitalism works. If someone can make money - they will.
Unfair? Completely. Unethical? No.

My family owns a wholesale florist supply company. We sell to the Florists, wedding planners, designers, etc who sell to the public. Mid 90's come around... These huge chain stores start selling cheap, garbage, awful bouquets at low prices. The REAL florists can't afford to compete since they only buy quality (and therefor more expensive) flowers so about 30% of all the florists die. Seriously. Simple as that. Bottom line is - there's always a market for the penny pinching schmuck who'll sacrifice quality for a few pennies. :main_thumbsdown: The upside is - there are SMART people out there who recognize quality and will pay for it. For instance - there's a good chance most of the people on here will get married one day. Will you go to a grocery store for your flowers - or a real florist?

Basically all I'm saying is - until the quality of a "wholesale $20.00 gecko" is comparable to a "designer $350.00 gecko" - you won't go out of business. Also - so long as the consumer stays educated on quality vs price - you'll do even better.

Trick is not to dissuade those who will undercut you - but instead to simply educate the consumer. That's the way business should be carried out imo.

 

[Baoh]

Where I completely understand what you are saying (the OP) i have to disagree...

Although my real job is being killed RIGHT NOW by basically the same issue - It's just the way Capitalism works. If someone can make money - they will.
Unfair? Completely. Unethical? No.


Basically all I'm saying is - until the quality of a "wholesale $20.00 gecko" is comparable to a "designer $350.00 gecko" - you won't go out of business. Also - so long as the consumer stays educated on quality vs price - you'll do even better.

Trick is not to dissuade those who will undercut you - but instead to simply educate the consumer. That's the way business should be carried out imo.

Fairness as it is often expressed is pretty much an illusion in its own right, too. The fairness comes in it all being naturally unfair. Such is capitalism, competition at its core, and nature. Rules remove fairness to those they discriminate against in favor of others who would flounder without them, but I digress.... There's not really anything "unfair" about selling your own Dreamsickle for a dollar to someone else who wants to give you a dollar for it. If I told you that you couldn't or shouldn't do so because of something unrelated to you (my sales or my beliefs), then that would be truly unfair. I'd have no grounds upon which to levy such a charge, as it's your business and none of mine.

Just because a consumer is educated on quality versus price, that does not mean the consumer can afford to choose the price of quality. Education may help, but people are people wherever you go, and money in the form of disposable income will be a major factor.

If I said my product was superior to another guy's product because mine was special while his was only nice, but the majority of my customer base, despite education, cannot discern between special and nice, then I will have those customers reacting in a style fitting one of two categories; those who believe what I say (either because they can tell or because they are easily cowed) and those who believe I am just trying to swindle them into a sale.

 

[MeiK]

Just because a consumer is educated on quality versus price, that does not mean the consumer can afford to choose the price of quality. Education may help, but people are people wherever you go, and money in the form of disposable income will be a major factor.

^^^ Completely true... Although I believe there are more people who make educated buys these days than "disposable income" purchases... Or maybe I'm trying to make myself feel better for being broke haha - I dunno. Point is - so long as there are educated consumers out there who understand the genetics behind an expensive gecko - there will be a market for them.

If I said my product was superior to another guy's product because mine was special while his was only nice, but the majority of my customer base, despite education, cannot discern between special and nice, then I will have those customers reacting in a style fitting one of two categories; those who believe what I say (either because they can tell or because they are easily cowed) and those who believe I am just trying to swindle them into a sale.

If you EXPLAIN why your product is special - list facts, explain genetics, etc... That's what I mean. Not so much, "Mine's better!" There are many gecko breeder sites out there - but only a few take the time to explain whats what - and I believe THOSE are the most successful.

Edit: I think you (Baoh) and I are on the same page pretty much tho... Business is business - it's not up to anyone to decide what others should charge. Fixed markets are AWFUL for many reasons.

 

[Baoh]

I think we are in agreement.