Eublepharis macularius fasciolatus - Take two.

[PrototypeGeckos]

Steph,
I am thinking that most of the Leos that were captive bred here in the US are probably somehow integrades, I have a hard time believing that they are all E. macularius macularius.
What does all this mean? Well, it means that today's pet Leopard Geckos are subject to an enormous amount of natural variation. In addition, several true genetic traits have been uncovered. These, combined with the natural variation, have led to the 'naming' of innumerable morphs. Many are nothing more than natural variation, and will not breed true when crossed to others with differing appearances. Others are a bit more complex and breed true, but with variation."

Although I have nowhere near the experience alot you guys here have, I have read the entire post and read about geckos enough to know that although keeping a line "pure" would be nice, I believe that is long since gone in todays Gecko breeding, whether it is known by that breeder or not, I believe most, if not all, of the captive bred specimens in the US today are integrades in some shape or form, and I also believe that in some cases it is necessary to outcross to correct a defect or just to simply improve your line and bring in new blood as everyone here knows. As far as outcrossing being referred to integrades, thats another story, in my opinion I don't think it is, as I think breeding different forms of Snows together can and will produce some even more fascinating snows in the years to come, and that is why I want to start working with Snows as one of my first projects this year. I just think there is so much more that can be done with them (as with the Bells) and that can be done with outcrossing them to Macks, etc. Just my two cents, hope its worth something.

 

[Ian S.]

I'd love to own that gecko on the left!!

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Frank & Albey, I understand where you two are coming from. :main_yes: I have heard the line-bred Snows & Giants were possible intergrades. I work with neither (not specifically for that reason, but it has crossed my mind). No one knows 100% if the current Leopard Gecko (E.M.M.) population consists of intergrades. It of course is very possible. Dealing with Cornsnakes and the hybrids/intergrades involved with that, it's always a concern keeping lines "pure."

All in all, I was just voicing my opinion.

As far as outcrossing being referred to integrades, thats another story, in my opinion I don't think it is, as I think breeding different forms of Snows together can and will produce some even more fascinating snows in the years to come, and that is why I want to start working with Snows as one of my first projects this year.

The discussion was not about crossing two different forms of Snow together...The discussion was crossing E. macularius macularius with E. macularius fasciolatus which would be an intergrade.

 

[PrototypeGeckos]

The discussion was not about crossing two different forms of Snow together...The discussion was crossing E. macularius macularius with E. macularius fasciolatus which would be an intergrade.

Understood, just from my point of view, crossing two forms of Eublepharis Macularius, whether it be Macularius/Macularius or Macularius/Fasciolatus is acceptable to improve existing stock, but that was only my opinion like the flip-side is yours, I just switched topics midpost and was talking about strictly Snows which is all I am going to have experience with so far and it seemed as if I was stating that is what you guys were referring to, and I wasn't, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

You are producing integrades. These won't be pure Leopard Geckos. Looking at the pictures, it's apparent that it's difficult to tell the difference between the two unless you are extremely experienced. Personally I do not want an integrade with my collection, but how can anyone be ensured that they will not be getting the integrades when purchasing a gecko from your lines?

I have to disagree, Steph. They are ALL Leopard Geckos... Eublepharis macularius. They are all the same species, sub-species, and perhaps all the captive localities are crosses, or mutts. It has been literally years since any known 'pure-bred' specimens have come into the USA, and IMO outcrossing these with our existing population at this time will only strengthen the shallow gene-pools.

Do I wish we had pure WT bloodlines? Heck 'yeah! But information like this that Albey is presenting is one of the BEST documented presentations of the possible origins of these morphs. He is not doing it ike Ron Tremper, John Mack, or Mark Bell... those guys just started throwing various morphs together and came up with a cool mutation, and I know for a fact that the Macks, Tremper, and the Bells have no real clue how they came up with them.

We can always perform sub-labial scale counts and digit structures to identify the localities if we were so inclined. But, in the meantime, there is a huge difference between intergrades and hybridization.

 

[KellyTCS]

I would definetely have to agree with Marcia, for all my opinion matters. They are still pure E. M. collectively.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

I most definately believe we are allready working with intergrades, and various subspecies. Just look at the differences in body structure etc, between, just say, a Tremper and a Rainwater.

Then the "linebred" Snows which can produce Super Snows. There are some other things, like Marcia said like scale structure, etc, but I havent looked that closely.:main_robin:


One thing I have mentioned before is about the Macks, they make very distinct chirp or bark sound, and I have never seen any other Leopard run as fast. Then they are not responding to TSD. Makes you wonder.:main_yes:

 

[eyelids]

I totally agree about the Macks being some sort of subspecies intergrade.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I have to disagree, Steph. They are ALL Leopard Geckos... Eublepharis macularius. They are all the same species, sub-species, and perhaps all the captive localities are crosses, or mutts.

I believe that is like saying all Elaphe Guttata are Cornsnakes, when in fact that is not true.

But, in the meantime, there is a huge difference between intergrades and hybridization.

Agreed. Intergrades are closely related (which would be what this pairing would be if in fact the Leopard Geckos involved are E.E.M. x E.E.F.) while hybrids are not so closely related (I'm not sure on a gecko example, but a snake example would be Cornsnake x Kingsnake). I don't believe I mentioned this pairing resulting in hybrids.

He is not doing it ike Ron Tremper, John Mack, or Mark Bell... those guys just started throwing various morphs together and came up with a cool mutation, and I know for a fact that the Macks, Tremper, and the Bells have no real clue how they came up with them.

You know, that's sad. The biggest names in it have no idea how the got what they did and why.

What bothers me is if they did get, say the Macks as an example, from E.M.F. why were the advertised as E.M.M.? That in my mind is wrong. A Leopard Gecko as we know it is E.M.M., I think it is dishonest to "borrow" morphs from other sub-species and not be open about how it was produced. Claiming ignorance is not an excuse either.

 

[marula]

. A Leopard Gecko as we know it is E.M.M., I think it is dishonest to "borrow" morphs from other sub-species and not be open about how it was produced. Claiming ignorance is not an excuse either.

i agree with this...
we have the same discussion in italy...for my absolutly beghinner experience is impossible found a genetic pool that can permitted the number of morph of leopard geckos in only one specie...(and in so less years)...
...for sure there are some "contaminations"...
..i'm not sure about the "casuality" of most morph...what's about the Montanus specie? don't look them with the same big head (different from others normal leo) and the same short tail of giant?
and line breed snow (or pastel) look really similar to fasciolatus....
if you whant mix them (and for me is difficult don't call the offspring hybrid) you need to be honest (like albey in his post)
in felinus is impossible be sure about the locality because everybody mix them (so the color is not a data fro understand the locality now)...the same with leos...is impossible be sure to have a real and original E.M.M....you only need to take a look about how many different leo "tipe" there are around: big head, short tail, short head, big eyes, long muzzle.....

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Steph, the closest example I can compare is that of Western Banded geckos. They are ALL Coleonyx variegatus. There are C.v. bogerti (Tucson locality), C.v. abbotti (San Diego locality) C.v. Utahensis (Utah locality), C.v. brevis (Texas locality), and then there is the Coleonyx variegatus variegatus, which is the generic Desert Banded Gecko. It is a natural intergrade, and is found in overlapping ranges throughout the southwestern deserts from southern Nevada southward to western Mexico, and into Arizona and southeastern California. They are called Coleonyx variegatus variegatus because because they are 'mutts'.
http://www.californiaherps.com/lizards/pages/c.v.variegatus.html
http://www.digimorph.org/specimens/Coleonyx_variegatus/map.phtml

Likewise, the Eublepharis macularius macularius is probably a natural intergrade consisting of E.m. fastiolatis, E.m. montanus, E.m. afghanicus, E.m. turkemenicus, and so on and so on. The jury is still out as to whether they are even a true sub-specie, but we know for certain the E.m. fastiolatus IS.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Exactly. Just to ad, since there was never any locality data in the first place, and the animals likely taken from different areas, countries, etc, so "we" really could not have been assured of any "purity" to begin with.

Breeders over the years just helped the process of intergrading the ssp., and may not have even known it.

 

[Jeanne]

Fascinating thread!

I agree, I think the intergrading of these 5 sub-species is ok, but, like Albey has done, I think if you know that you bred them together that you should let it be known.

Knowing about the intergrading of these sub-species helps to answer a lot of questions. I have always believed that the Mack Snows were a combo of 2 sub-species, hopefully someday we will be able to determine it for sure. And the Giants, there is definitely something up with them.

I am sure that "Leopard Geckos" when first brought into the U.S. were already a mixed Sub-Species. How can all these different ones live within such a close range, can breed with each other, but not have bred in the wild?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

To repeat my previous point, and to the best of my limited memory, Albey has provided us with the best carefully planned and documented evidence of the possible origins of these morphs to this date. Until the Middle East opens up to allow the scientific study of the various Eublepharis macularius localities in their natural habitat, which includes scale counts, toe and body structure, etc., we can only rely on the existing limited data. There has been virtually no field studies done by Westerners since Leviton and Anderson.

 

[eyelids]

Why do they have to come from such a hostile region?! How cool would it be if someone did a new study like Marcia suggested?!

 

[KelliH]

Albey, I think what you are doing is great, especially the way you are documenting it. I apologize for turning the topic towards the tail kink issues, I should have kept the thread on topic. You know I like you a lot, and I hope you know I respect all the work you have done with leos, your carrot tails especially. Can you feel the love :smitten: We love ya Albey!

That being said, back to the topic at hand... I would bet that most if not all of the leopard geckos in the trade in the US today are a mixture of macularius subspecies, and/or localities. I think it's fantastic what Albey is doing. He is outcrossing his lines, which in turn is strengthening his lines, and he is coming here to document that and share that with us. He is producing some awesome and unique animals from that outcrossing, and I applaud that wholeheartedly.

 

[PrototypeGeckos]

Albey, I think what you are doing is great, especially the way you are documenting it. I apologize for turning the topic towards the tail kink issues, I should have kept the thread on topic. You know I like you a lot, and I hope you know I respect all the work you have done with leos, your carrot tails especially. Can you feel the love :smitten: We love ya Albey!

That being said, back to the topic at hand... I would bet that most if not all of the leopard geckos in the trade in the US today are a mixture of macularius subspecies, and/or localities. I think it's fantastic what Albey is doing. He is outcrossing his lines, which in turn is strengthening his lines, and he is coming here to document that and share that with us. He is producing some awesome and unique animals from that outcrossing, and I applaud that wholeheartedly.

Perfectly said, and I agree totally, keep up the great work Albey, and keep sharing it here!!! Thanks, it especially helps the new breeders such as myself learn some of the "tricks of the trade" used by top notch breeders such as yourself to make the fantastic geckos you guys produce, and I believe that is the whole point of this forum, to share ideas, techniques, etc. to collectively improve geckos one breeding at a time! Thanks

 

[KelliH]

and I believe that is the whole point of this forum, to share ideas, techniques, etc. to collectively improve geckos one breeding at a time!

Absolutely 100% correct.

 

[PaulSage]

Albey, those are awesome! Thanks for posting the info :thumbsup:

 

[dsreptiles]

Yeah thanks for this post Albey.... Thanks to it I've been doing countless hours of research on the different eublepharis macularius'. Now I dont know weither I'm feeling more informed or confused haha j/k.