Eublepharis macularius fasciolatus - Take two.

[GroovyGeckos.com]

^ I think Albey`s refers to a cross between the two, meaning Mack X Linebred.

Both are possible though. You can try to selectively "linebreed" the Macks by taking the more white Macks and breeding them together, to get that result.

Or you can breed a Mack to a "linebred" Snow, to try to selectively "linebreed" them as well.

 

[eyelids]

I wasn't "down" enough for an invite to that site. I registered, but whomever deleted my registration, Therefore I have no insite regaurding any discussions there. Just curiousity:main_thumbsup:

I registered too, but never heard anything. Who cares though?! I'm pretty sure it was Chris Johnson's site and you all know how cool he is/was...

 

[Albey]

I registered too, but never heard anything. Who cares though?! I'm pretty sure it was Chris Johnson's site and you all know how cool he is/was...

Don’t worry you didn’t miss anything. It was pretty lame all things considered. LOL:main_laugh:

 

[Ian S.]

Don’t worry you didn’t miss anything. It was pretty lame all things considered. LOL:main_laugh:

LOL... Must have been.

 

[Californiaman]

Fantastic Post

This is the most fascinating post I have read since becoming a member.
Good for you Albey! Way to go dude.
Thanks for the good reading tonight.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I'm pretty sure it was Chris Johnson's site and you all know how cool he is/was...

Chris WHO???

 

[eyelids]

Chris WHO???

You're kidding right? You know... owner of the late, great Top Shelf Exotics...

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

owner of the late, great

Michael you misspelled... lying, and thieving LOL

 

[KelliH]

No Kelli I am referring to Mack Super Snow’s. Everyone I received from John Mack the very first year he offered them had some degree of kinking. All of the Mack Super Snow’s Alex offered for sale also had some degree of kinking. There was even a thread about it in the short lived Mack Snow site that Alex or someone put up that was by invitation only. You were a member there. It was where we as Mack Owners were supposed to discuss problems or just talk amongst ourselves about the Mack’s. I thought by now it was common knowledge that Mack’s had kinking issues. I didn’t realize we were supposed to still be hiding that.

Hey Albey, sorry I just saw your post. I wasn't inferring that anyone hide anything. I have not had any kinky tail issues with any of my Mack Snows. My original co dom male from Alex didn't have a kinked tail, and I did outcross him to all unrelated females, so maybe that's why I haven't had an issue. I'm sure if we could go back and read the thread on that old site I stated as such there as well. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you or anything, no harm intended.

 

[snared99]

i have never experienced tail kinks in any mack offspring or the origiinals i bought

 

[Jeanne]

No tail kinks here either, in any of my Snows

 

[eyelids]

Well I'm an oddball then... I have one Mack with a kink.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Originally Posted by Golden Gate Geckos
Chris WHO???

You're kidding right? You know... owner of the late, great Top Shelf Exotics...

Yes... I was just kiding.

 

[Albey]

I started this thread to talk about Eublepharis macularius fasciolatus not to talk about tail kinking in Mack Super Snows. I mentioned the tail kinking just in passing. My thinking was if I had the problem surely other people would have some problem with it also. Especially after hearing of problems in one of the threads on the Mack Snow Forum. I guess I was wrong. For the record I would like to state a few facts, as I know them.

The Mack Super Snow first became available in 2004. All Mack Super Snow and Mack Snows available that year were produced by John Mack. No one else produced any that year. Other people sold them that year my self included but only John Mack produced them. I purchased six Mack Super Snows from John that year. Of the six Geckos I received the Male and four of the Females had some degree of tail kinking. None of it was major and it could be as slight as just a too fast of a taper to the tail but if you looked hard enough you could see they weren’t perfect. I also purchased three Female Mack Snows that year. There were no problems with the tails on those. I was a little disappointed that a project that was available in it’s first year already had some problems, but I assumed everyone that bought them would all be in the same boat. We would just have to try and out breed them to get rid of it.

That year it became evident that the Male I purchased from John wasn’t getting the job done. I was getting no eggs. Since I had invested so heavily in the project John was nice enough to send me a Mack Snow Male (He didn’t have any Male Super Snows available), so that my first year wouldn’t be a total waste. He did not have any tail kinking issues. He bred well for me and I produced a good amount of Super Snows. The Female Super Snow that had the largest amount of kinking produced babies that had considerably less kinking than her but there was still a little bit on some of them. I had incubated all of her eggs to be Female but as we all know Mack’s don’t follow Temperature-Dependent Sex Determination and most of the geckos that hatched ended up being Males. Most of the Males I sold that year had a tiny bit of kink because of it. Once again I wasn’t happy with that but there little I or any one else could have done the second year of a project. This year my production has been mostly kink free with the Albino crosses being completely kink free. I guess out breeding is doing the job.

For those of you who have had absolutely no problems I am happy for you, but boy you people play rough here.:argue:

 

[Jeanne]

For those of you who have had absolutely no problems I am happy for you, but boy you people play rough here.:argue:

Nobody is trying to play rough, you know why I don' have or want and Geckos with tail kinks.

After reading this post, I am surprised that my original male doesn't have tail kinks, I believe he is a second generation male, and as far as I know he isn't het for anything, so I don't think he was outcrossed, unless one of his parents were a normal type gecko. Of coarse, I haven't bred him to a Blizzard Yet, hmmm, I may have to find me a Female BLizzard

 

[Ian S.]

With all due respect, the only thing that seemed a bit rough was the insinuation that breeders are hiding defect issues with the macks.(tail kinks) That and my post that sounded extremely pessimistic and I apologise for that again. I was merely wondering why we see So...many Macks but no tail kinks as stated. After all you are extremely reputable and were one of the first involved with the Macks. So what ever you say I'd roll with. Got nuttin but love for ya here, being a small time hobbiest.:main_thumbsup: Your animals rock and it's admiring what a huge help you are, as well as the informative posts.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I've read this entire thread and it contains a lot of interesting information. It's very well written and has a lot of valuable information.

My concern is this...You are producing integrades. These won't be pure Leopard Geckos. Looking at the pictures, it's apparent that it's difficult to tell the difference between the two unless you are extremely experienced. Personally I do not want an integrade with my collection, but how can anyone be ensured that they will not be getting the integrades when purchasing a gecko from your lines? I realise you would be ethical enough to fully disclose that the geckos are not pure, but what about buyers who then breed and sell?

IMO, I do not think it's necassary to create integrades with the Macks. Selectively breeding for the white would do the exact same thing while keeping the line pure.

 

[Franks_Geckos]

My concern is this...You are producing integrades. These won't be pure Leopard Geckos. Looking at the pictures, it's apparent that it's difficult to tell the difference between the two unless you are extremely experienced. Personally I do not want an integrade with my collection, but how can anyone be ensured that they will not be getting the integrades when purchasing a gecko from your lines? I realise you would be ethical enough to fully disclose that the geckos are not pure, but what about buyers who then breed and sell?

IMO, I do not think it's necassary to create integrades with the Macks. Selectively breeding for the white would do the exact same thing while keeping the line pure.

Steph,
I am thinking that most of the Leos that were captive bred here in the US are probably somehow integrades, I have a hard time believing that they are all E. macularius macularius.
This is from the VMS website:



"The Leopard Gecko (Eublepharis macularius) as taxonomists currently recognize it, consists of five subspecies found in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Western India (Rajasthan, Ajmer, Madar foothills), Iraq and Iran. They are:

Eublepharis macularius fasciolatus GÃœNTHER 1864

Eublepharis macularius afghanicus BÖRNER 1976

Eublepharis macularius macularius BLYTH 1854

Eublepharis macularius montanus BÖRNER 1976

Eublepharis macularius smithi BÖRNER 1981

Additionally, four closely related species are currently recognized. At least one of these was formerly included in the E. macularius complex and has undoubtedly contributed it's unique genetic make-up to the mix currently kept in captivity as well. They are:

Eublepharis angramainyu

Eublepharis fuscus

Eublepharis hardwickii

Eublepharis turcmenicus

What does all this mean? Well, it means that today's pet Leopard Geckos are subject to an enormous amount of natural variation. In addition, several true genetic traits have been uncovered. These, combined with the natural variation, have led to the 'naming' of innumerable morphs. Many are nothing more than natural variation, and will not breed true when crossed to others with differing appearances. Others are a bit more complex and breed true, but with variation."

 

[Albey]

With all due respect, the only thing that seemed a bit rough was the insinuation that breeders are hiding defect issues with the macks.(tail kinks)

I whole hardily apologize for that. That came from the frustration of no one else backing me up on it. Once again, I apologize.

 

[Albey]

I've read this entire thread and it contains a lot of interesting information. It's very well written and has a lot of valuable information.

My concern is this...You are producing integrades. These won't be pure Leopard Geckos. Looking at the pictures, it's apparent that it's difficult to tell the difference between the two unless you are extremely experienced. Personally I do not want an integrade with my collection, but how can anyone be ensured that they will not be getting the integrades when purchasing a gecko from your lines? I realise you would be ethical enough to fully disclose that the geckos are not pure, but what about buyers who then breed and sell?

IMO, I do not think it's necassary to create integrades with the Macks. Selectively breeding for the white would do the exact same thing while keeping the line pure.

I think you make very valid points but I tend to agree with the following post by Frank that all present day Leopard Geckos are intergrades. The large Leopard Gecko breeders would buy wild caught stock when it used to be available and they didn’t care what sub-species they were. If as I surmise that the Line Bred Snow’s are actually Eublepharis macularius fasciolatus they are already intergrades. That said I wouldn’t breed a Leopard Gecko to a Fat-tail or breed a Ball Python to an Angolan Python to produce Hybrid’s but I see nothing wrong with Breeding Leopard Geckos to Leopard Geckos.