Golden Gate Geckos Slurry

[Golden Gate Geckos]

There seems to be some skepticism and confusion about using the GGG Slurry, so I would like to solicit your comments and shared experiences using the slurry.

Thanks!

 

[Desdemona]

I saw the other thread I thought your explanation of it made sense and it sounded like good advice to me. Posting the recipe might help for those who have never heard of it so this thread is more useful to them.

 

[lillith]

I have used the slurry personally on rescues, enigmas with bad syndrome, and (I shamefully admit) during my first year breeding when one of my females lost more weight than I thought she would during a hunger strike. I believe it was instrumental in ending her hunger strike.

I have successfully transitioned geckos from slurry to self-feeding in cases where they would have otherwise died, especially my enigmas. Without opening the enigma 'can of worms' wide open, slurry is one of the things that helped me discover where to draw the lines as to whether an individual gecko is recoverable or is failing to thrive.

I have given the recipe to my local herp shop, where they're using it to rehabilitate several recent rescue surrenders.

I feel that it is a nutritionally sound combination for emergency situations, but I do not feel that a gecko should be fed this as a continual diet indefinitely. (This is not its purpose, anyhow). My only caution is that you *must* take care to use the exact ingredients listed, or make *exactly equivalent* nutritional substitutions. I have done both, with success.

My only other advice is, that if you're going to make yourself a batch?
Invest in one of these:
http://www.awesomedrinks.com/hb_mini_ice_cube_trays.html

Less gets wasted, that way.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Just for reference, the GGG Slurry recipe can be found on the "INFO" page of my website. I have never used any substitute ingredients.

 

[chrisherp]

Since it seems the topic of this thread has shifted to the ingredients of my slurry, I will try to clarify. I created the Golden Gate Geckos Slurry many years ago when I lost 17 out of 24 sick geckos to hepatic lipidosis from aflatoxic poisoning as a result of chronic ingestion of crickets that were cultured on moldy chicken mash from the grower. It was Dr. Frederic L. Frye that I consulted with for the diagnosis, necropsies, and pathology for this tragedy. Once I got the results of analysis on the crickets, I was able to rehabilitate the other 7 geckos using the slurry. My slurry has saved literally hundreds of geckos that were off food while being treated for parasitic and bacterial infections. It is now not only endorsed by my veterinarian Dr. Kenneth Harkewicz (President of the ARAV, consulting reptile vet for the VIN, Oakland Zoo's Exotics Department, and former Associate Professor for UC Davis' Exotic Animal Department), but Texas A & M University and the University of Guelph, Ontario's Reptile Department.

Let's take a look at the ingredients for the GGG Slurry and why they are used:

Hill's A/D pet food - a high-calorie, high protein, pasteurized meat food for convalescing carnivores.

Mealworms (bulk of the recipe) - another high calorie, high protein food for insectivores that not only provides a little more balance and roughage, but provides the smell and taste that makes the slurry palatable for geckos.

Squash - a complex carbohydrate that is not a calcium binder, and keeps the slurry in the gecko's GI system a little longer for better nutrient absorption.

Milk Thistle - a natural plant-based liver purifier. Hepatic Lipidosis in anorexic leopard geckos is caused by the mobilization of fat reserves that can 'clog' the liver.

Pedialite - provides electrolytes to promote kidney function and prevent dehydration.

Ensure - another high-calorie, high nutrient liquid that is not a dairy product (lactose free).

Supplements - added calcium and vitamins developed for reptiles.

As far as probiotics, I use Lactobacillus, Bifitus, (L.) acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, and L. fermentum in a capsule form. These live organisms help restore the balance of gram positive bacteria in the intestines of geckos being treated for gram negative bacterial infections. Antibiotic treatment usually targets the gram negative bacteria which causes infection, but can also destroy the 'good' gut flora that is essential for proper digestion. There is an ongoing debate whether or not probiotics are effective in cold-blooded animals, as well as the degradation of the live microorganisms over time. I have seen miraculous recoveries of geckos with diarrhea using probiotics alone when I got a few geckos from another breeder that had mycosis (yeast infections).

With all due respect this is wrong. A herp who has been anoretic must be started on on a lowfat, low protein diet. A sudden load of protein and fat can harm the liver.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

With all due respect this is wrong. A herp who has been anoretic must be started on on a lowfat, low protein diet. A sudden load of protein and fat can harm the liver.

This may be true for omnivorous reptiles, but leopard geckos are insectivore/carnivores. Anorexic leopard geckos already have hepatic lipidosis, which can be reversed once a normal diet is resumed. A normal diet consists of insect protein, and in some cases animal protein in the case of small rodents. May I respectfully ask what you suggest for convalescing leopard geckos that are off food? Without being argumentative, what makes you qualified to deem this emergency food "wrong" over the expertise of Dr. Frederic L. Frye, Dr. Ken Harkewicz, UC Davis, Texas A & M, and the University of Guelph, Ontario (and countless other vets)?

 

[chrisherp]

This may be true for omnivorous reptiles, but leopard geckos are insectivore/carnivores. Anorexic leopard geckos already have hepatic lipidosis, which can be reversed once a normal diet is resumed. A normal diet consists of insect protein, and in some cases animal protein in the case of small rodents. May I respectfully ask what you suggest for convalescing leopard geckos that are off food? Without being argumentative, what makes you qualified to deem this emergency food "wrong" over the expertise of Dr. Frederic L. Frye, Dr. Ken Harkewicz, UC Davis, Texas A & M, and the University of Guelph, Ontario (and countless other vets)?

Hello, I will give you a hint. I am a part time student and surrounded with lots of veterinarians and goodies(books) One of the problems is some of the older vets continue to use old methods which have now proven to be a failure.
Aside from that my only real concern with the soup was the mealworms added. The A/D and ensure has been used for many years and has been proven effective. Although if a reptile is suffering from malnutrition, dehydration is to be expected as well. It’s important to hydrate first to avoid urate crystals from forming.
There is also the concern of overabsorption of vitamins and minerals in a malnourished reptile. So the amounts of supplements need to be monitored during this time. It is also important the water / protein ratio is calculated to prevent other health conditions from arising.

Forgive me for my brief comments as I have been on such a tight schedule.

 

[JordanAng420]

May I respectfully ask what you suggest for convalescing leopard geckos that are off food? Without being argumentative, what makes you qualified to deem this emergency food "wrong" over the expertise of Dr. Frederic L. Frye, Dr. Ken Harkewicz, UC Davis, Texas A & M, and the University of Guelph, Ontario (and countless other vets)?

Marcia asked two questions...you didn't answer them, I am curious about the answers as well.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Until these posts get moved...

Hello, I will give you a hint. I am a part time student and surrounded with lots of veterinarians and goodies(books) One of the problems is some of the older vets continue to use old methods which have now proven to be a failure.
Aside from that my only real concern with the soup was the mealworms added. The A/D and ensure has been used for many years and has been proven effective. Although if a reptile is suffering from malnutrition, dehydration is to be expected as well. It’s important to hydrate first to avoid urate crystals from forming.
There is also the concern of overabsorption of vitamins and minerals in a malnourished reptile. So the amounts of supplements need to be monitored during this time. It is also important the water / protein ratio is calculated to prevent other health conditions from arising.

Forgive me for my brief comments as I have been on such a tight schedule.

I'm wondering who wrote those books you are studying and taught those courses that all the vets you hang out with took in order to become the "newer" vets with "newer" methods?

 

[Wild West Reptile]

There's always a young know it all in the crowd. Let's see some PROOF and credentials before throwing around statements like "this is wrong". Marcia has been raising and saving sick geckos almost before you had eyelids, "with all due respect."

 

[chrisherp]

There's always a young know it all in the crowd. Let's see some PROOF and credentials before throwing around statements like "this is wrong". Marcia has been raising and saving sick geckos almost before you had eyelids, "with all due respect."

Amazing how defensive some people can become on this forum when someone new has information. It becomes a defensive interrogation. This is why even when I had more time I kept my distance. I had good intentions with updated information which I have been gathering from my mentors. I wanted to help prevent the calcium overdose which happened to my gecko from happening to someone else. I was working on a full detailed health sheet and I wanted it to be a pleasant surprise but I am totally discouraged.

Technology has evolved and newer information has become available in large university colleges.
The outdated information that continues to be given to new members is totally disappointing. There are very few people there that are well aware of the best care but I have seen how they try and it becomes a war.
People fail to see reality that has caused these leopard geckos to live short lives. Why is it so hard to except that your methods are failing. Do you really believe 10 years is old for a leopard gecko?

Yes, photoperiod plays a part in extending their lives.
Yes, variety is important.
Yes, fattening food will shorten their life span.
Yes, over supplementing happens all the time. I have seen it personally. This is what gave me the drive to look further instead of taking advice from a forum filled with old and incorrect information.

I have said all I have to say and hope that at least a few will be smart enough to not follow the terrible trend that is leading to premature deaths in leopard geckos.

No I am not a troll. No I am not bored. No I have no reason to try to impress anyone. I am an educated person who wanted to contribute information to help others.

Wish you all the best!

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Well Christine, new information that's contradictory to what's been tried and true, will by nature be questioned by many. And it should be. 40 years ago nobody had leopard geckos in captivity. 30 years ago they did. A lot has been learned over the last 3+ decades, and it had to be proven after much trial and error. A 20 year old care sheet that hasn't changed is full of poor husbandry guidelines. Let's see some evidence to support what you are saying.

 

[Dimidiata]

I can only agree that i want these research docs and records, if they have been published online. I'm not being a skeptic, these things MUST be questioned. Then again information evolves, that i will agree with 100%.
When Betta fish were first brought into captivity they were to be kept in small tanks as large ones made them uncomfortable and they were never to have a tank mate
Then we learned that theres minimum tank size is a good 2.5gal and they need a heater but they were still a one only animal, As years progressed we learned that they thrived in large setups and could Handel tank mates(at times) and that they needed heating and varied diets, that we could put their lifespan from 2 years to 8+ easy. Of course all this info was met with PURE repulse and so on by the experienced keepers. Some info was wrong such as the idea that males and females could be housed together(god was that wrong lol). And it was proven so. With trial and error will come our acceptance. It may very well take a few years. I'm currently trying to disprove the aggressive standard put on tiger barbs, ya think thats going well HA. Ive had to conduct my own research and communicate with people across the world with same interest in the topic and prove that the big bad fish isn't big nor bad. The key is to not get frustrated when you get challenged, just get up and give a good argument, defend your case but do not insult.

 

[gecko4245]

? why do I feel confused? who is christine?

 

[Dimidiata]

? why do I feel confused?

Oh yeah, russ moved some comments from another thread over here becuase they were talking about this subject and it got heated. I think right now i will stop posting and see what rolls out. If you want more specifics PM me.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Well Christine, new information that's contradictory to what's been tried and true, will by nature be questioned by many. And it should be.

Let's see some evidence to support what you are saying.

Yes, let's see some solid evidence, not just words.

 

[Russ S]

Yes, let's see some solid evidence, not just words.

Chris,
Lets try to tone it down a little and see if maybe we can learn something here instead of alienating someone.

Everyone, Sorry for the confusion. I felt these posts would be better served here instead of hijacking the other thread.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Chris,
Lets try to tone it down a little and see if maybe we can learn something here instead of alienating someone.

Everyone, Sorry for the confusion. I felt these posts would be better served here instead of hijacking the other thread.

Why does my statement need "toning down" when Laney says the same thing and you don't say anything about that? Talk about alienating. I don't think I said anything that hasn't been said already.

All I asked for was for some facts. Nothing more. If that's offensive, I'll apologize for me and for the others who asked for some facts as well. Feel free to delete my post like the other one that was deleted.

 

[Dimidiata]

It wasnt that you ment harm but lets allow him a chance to provide some info before we all jump on him asking for facts, they mentioned they were busy at the moment so lets all just wait until a responce. I personaly dont think either party is wrong persay its just that your views dont match up.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

It wasnt that you ment harm but lets allow him a chance to provide some info

"Him's" a "her". LOL