Golden Gate Geckos Slurry

[grboxa]

^. You had people argue with you against that?.....thats just plain common sense if you ask me, not to mention theres information on those subjects to back it up almost EVEYWHERE. Dont waste your time with those people I'd say :main_thumbsup:.

 

[lillith]

I don't mean to sound like a genious because I know I am not. But these things I mentioned in the past and everytime I tried to tell someone, someone else would post against me

Yes, photoperiod plays a part in extending their lives.
Yes, variety is important.
Yes, fattening food will shorten their life span.

I agree, no one should be arguing those points, although I am curious what her take on photoperiod is, since she did not elucidate.

 

[Russ S]

extremely pathetic her comment was deleted.:main_no:

The posts that didn't make it here last night have been restored to their previous places in the thread.
I apologize again for any inconvenience this may have caused.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Wow quite a debate on the pros/cons of Marcia's slurry. My question is... when trying to recover an emaciated anything it is always suggested to feed a lower protein higher fat diet in order to avoid refeeding syndrom. The evidence/effects of refeeding syndrom has been known since the 1940's from the many deaths of rescued concentration camp victims that were stuffed with high pro foods suck as steak/meat that eventually died because of that diet, the name refeeding syndrom created and found that the emaciated body couldn't process the high proeins that were being taken in. Can you explain to me please how the composition of this slurry prevents that problem when it is a high protein/high fat diet?

Also just an fyi on milk thistle, it is a whole body detoxifier that heps mostly the kidneys and liver as well as the eyes (it is used to help prevent cloudiness in older dogs eyes).

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Can you explain to me please how the composition of this slurry prevents that problem when it is a high protein/high fat diet?

To answer your question directly, there is no evidence that the slurry prevents this, and there is no evidence that this problem even exists in leopard geckos. I am aware of the refeeding syndrome in humans, but we must remember that we are omnivorous and can survive very well as vegetarians, deriving our protein sources from a combination of grains and legumes that form complete protein chains, as well as a diet rich in complex carbohydrates. A similar problem can be said of emaciated humans that are given diets that are high in fructose, sucrose, and dextrose, and lactose... all simple carbohydrates that can cause insulin levels to skyrocket and cause death by insulin shock.

Most vertebrates do not have the ability to process cellulose; a polysaccharide found in high levels in plant material because they lack the appropriate enzymes to break it down in the GI system. Animals such as cows, horses, sheep, goats, and other plant-eating animals have symbiotic bacteria in the intestinal tract, which possess the necessary enzymes to digest cellulose in plant material.

The truth is, that very few studies have been performed on reptile nutrition with the exception of iguanas, which are vegetarian. Leopard geckos are carnivore/insectivores with a very short GI system, and it would seem reasonable to believe that nutrients including natural calcium and minerals from the soil, are metabolized through the insects that consume the plant material, which in turn are eaten by the geckos in the wild. The staple diet of leopard geckos in captivity, consisting of mealworms, crickets, and roaches, are not their natural diet which would be grasshoppers, locust, grubs, arachnids, etc., with an occasional mouse pinky, that have been cultivated on the natural vegetation grown in the indigenous soil. This is the reason we gut-load our insect feeders and supplement the diet of leopard geckos with calcium and vitamins.

The GGG Slurry is made up primarily of mealworms, which are a standard food for captive leopard geckos. The second ingredient is Hill's AD, which is a pasteruized, highly digestible meat designed for canines and felines. Both mealworms and Hill's AD have approximately the same percentage of fat and protein. The baby food squash is a plant-based complex carbohydrate that has little nutritional value to the leopard gecko, but keeps the food in the intestinal tract longer to optimize absorption of the other nutrients, as well as providing roughage for atrophied intestines. Here are links to the nutritional analysis of the three main ingredients of the slurry:

Mealworms
Hill's AD
Pureed squash

In contrast, here is the link to Oxbow formulas, which by the way only have Carnivore Care and Herbivore Care formulas... NOT an insectivore formula. Would you feed a convalescing leopard gecko a meat, vegetable, or fruit diet?

Is the GGG slurry perfect? Absolutely not! It was developed with careful research into information and resources we currently have available regarding leopard gecko nutrition... which isn't a lot. A leopard gecko that is suffering from weight loss as a result of a parasitic or bacterial infection and is being treated by a veterinarian needs supplemental nutrition that consists of it's "natural" diet (as we know it). Until we have scientific research results of the proper and balanced dietary requirements of leopard geckos (and other reptile species), the GGG Slurry is the best I could do and it has been proven time and time again to be beneficial in the rehabilitation of sick geckos.

 

[lillith]

Also just an fyi on milk thistle, it is a whole body detoxifier that heps mostly the kidneys and liver as well as the eyes (it is used to help prevent cloudiness in older dogs eyes).

Silymarin is one of the main constituents isolated from Silybum marianum aka milk thistle. It is actually a combination of three flavonoids:silibin, silychristin, and silydianin. Silymarin actually alters the cell membranes of the liver, inhibiting movement of toxins into the cells, as well as being protective by preventing the production of certain enzymes that can cause liver damage. It also has antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties. It is not very water-soluble, and this is why dried powder is better than liquid preparations. At higher doses, it is considered advisable to pair it with some sort of fiber to prevent loose stools or GI tract irritation.

Its main action is through hepatic metabolism. I would not say that it is a "whole body purifier" since its main action is through the liver and only somewhat through the kidneys. It actually protects the liver cells as it stimulates their processing capabilites.

Just thought I'd throw that out there, since I looked into it further when I made my first batch. Herbology is one area I know about at least as well as geckos. Always more to learn.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I appreciate your reply Marcia and certainly wasn't questioning the effectiveness of the slurry. I've known several that have benefitted from it, but just knowing what I do of refeeding syndrom and mammals that the higher protein could present issues.. emaciated canines also can suffer refeeding syndrom and they share a similar meat based diet as leos, feeding on prey that are grass rangers or scavengers, or oppertunistic eaters so I figured the comparison was fairly equitable on all counts. I wish more info was available on leo nutrition, or any insect eating reptile for that matter. Maybe someone could see it as a worth undertaking someday.

 

[lillith]

So, chrisherp has nothing to say?

Also, I'm curious about the four folks who selected,
"No. I wouldn't even consider using it." Why?

Looking for insight.

 

[gecko4245]

So, chrisherp has nothing to say?

Also, I'm curious about the four folks who selected,
"No. I wouldn't even consider using it." Why?

Looking for insight.

It would be nice, but I think Chrisherp wrote and never looked back
I was not one of the ones who voted no, but I like being honest and say I would use most of it exept the mealworms. Not the mealworms because I was also always told by the vet and according to what I have read they should be started with digestable proteins and low protein. I can't argue it because I don't have the documents to back it up. In the past when I was given sick geckos I have used the Hill's A/D alone with water and pedialyte and it worked fine. I guess it would depend on the illness of the gecko.
I guess the mealworms are to add flavor so they will accept it?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I am looking for discussion on the nutritive qualities of the slurry so we can all learn from each other, and I am also hoping for some testimonials from people who have used it... whether good or bad.

I guess the mealworms are to add flavor so they will accept it?

That's a big part of it, but it also helps keep the gecko's digestive system working using the food that they normally eat. I tried the slurry with crickets but they decay, turn black, and stink like the dickens! I can't imagine what the bacterial levels are.

I would use most of it exept the mealworms. Not the mealworms because I was also always told by the vet and according to what I have read they should be started with digestable proteins and low protein.

Can you tell us exactly what the vet and material you have read suggests for 'digestible' and 'low' protein for an animal that cannot digest vegetation?

 

[gecko4245]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I am looking for discussion on the nutritive qualities of the slurry so we can all learn from each other, and I am also hoping for some testimonials from people who have used it... whether good or bad.

That's a big part of it, but it also helps keep the gecko's digestive system working using the food that they normally eat. I tried the slurry with crickets but they decay, turn black, and stink like the dickens! I can't imagine what the bacterial levels are.

Can you tell us exactly what the vet and material you have read suggests for 'digestible' and 'low' protein for an animal that cannot digest vegetation?

yea, I could not imagine using crickets for that either, lol
That is why I can't say much because I don't save everything I read and I read so much I can't remember where I read it from. The vets would just tell me by mouth when I would take the sick gecko in to the vet. If I had anything documented I would surely share with everyone. If I run into anything again I will post it.

 

[gecko4245]

yea, I could not imagine using crickets for that either, lol
That is why I can't say much because I don't save everything I read and I read so much I can't remember where I read it from. The vets would just tell me by mouth when I would take the sick gecko in to the vet. If I had anything documented I would surely share with everyone. If I run into anything again I will post it.

This won't help much, but it reminded me of a small part of a conversation I had with a vet. She mentioned there was a diffrence between rehabilitating nutrition for a carnivore and insectivore. I can't remember well but a "real carnivore" (larger species) would require higher protein than an insectivore.

http://www.clermontanimal.net/ReptileNutr.html

I think it boils down to why they stop eating and the condition behind it all. I know gecko with MBD did best on Ensure High Calcium and the geckos with kidney disease need Ensure nepro. Thses are things I have memorized thru out the years. So I think it's important to make sure people know the reason first and treat it accordinly.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

I think an important point of using this feeding mixture in rehabilitating an animal is to understand that it isn't intended for long term use, and the regular diet should be offered when the animal gains strength. Including the insect base gives them a taste of what they should be eating, which is feeder bugs. When I've used it, it wasn't a specific amount I would make the gecko take. At first it was in fact very little, and increased amounts as they began to recover. A while back someone suggested dipping a worm in the slurry, then offering, to get them back on regular food. I haven't tried this yet but will when I take in another rescue. The longest period I've had a gecko on slurry was 2 weeks, during which there were daily hydration soaks also. It seemed to relax them and they weren't as stressed with a baby spoon dabbing their lips.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I think it boils down to why they stop eating and the condition behind it all.

exactly. This is why the slurry is not designed to cure anything or be used long-term. It is emergency nutrition while a gecko is being treated by a qualified veterinarian for a diagnosed condition.

I am still looking for documented reasons why the slurry should not be used, and what IS recommended. It seems there is skepticism in using the slurry as it is.

 

[gecko4245]

exactly. This is why the slurry is not designed to cure anything or be used long-term. It is emergency nutrition while a gecko is being treated by a qualified veterinarian for a diagnosed condition.

I am still looking for documented reasons why the slurry should not be used, and what IS recommended. It seems there is skepticism in using the slurry as it is.

I found something that states to start on low fat, low protein.

http://74.6.238.254/search/srpcache...a&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=1we85J6lz3hOityuxlhOGQ--

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I have seen Trish's article, and a few things things came to mind. First, like me with my slurry, she is speculating and states it is her gut hunch. Second, this article is generic to "reptiles", and does not specify it is for carnivore/insectivores. It would be easy to provide a low protein, low fat diet to convalescing omnivores such as bearded dragons and iguanas. Third, she does not state what should be used as a low protein, low fat diet for meat and insect eaters.

I agree 100% that hepatic lipidosis in leopard geckos is caused by the mobilization of stored fat deposits as a result of being off food for a long time. Perhaps if the gecko is diagnosed with hepatic lipidosis by a vet along with whatever parasitic and/or bacterial infection it is being treated for, the vet would recommend an alternative diet. But the purpose of the slurry is to provide a more natural diet and nutrients for a gecko that is off food which will actually prevent the gecko from developing fatty liver disease during treatment... because the fat deposits will not mobilize as readily if the gecko is nourished.

 

[gecko4245]

I have seen Trish's article, and a few things things came to mind. First, like me with my slurry, she is speculating and states it is her gut hunch. Second, this article is generic to "reptiles", and does not specify it is for carnivore/insectivores. It would be easy to provide a low protein, low fat diet to convalescing omnivores such as bearded dragons and iguanas. Third, she does not state what should be used as a low protein, low fat diet for meat and insect eaters.

I agree 100% that hepatic lipidosis in leopard geckos is caused by the mobilization of stored fat deposits as a result of being off food for a long time. Perhaps if the gecko is diagnosed with hepatic lipidosis by a vet along with whatever parasitic and/or bacterial infection it is being treated for, the vet would recommend an alternative diet. But the purpose of the slurry is to provide a more natural diet and nutrients for a gecko that is off food which will actually prevent the gecko from developing fatty liver disease during treatment... because the fat deposits will not mobilize as readily if the gecko is nourished.

I remember the vet gave a cup of some dry stuff reptile food for one of the leos years ago and she said it was earthworms, but it was in a powder form and I had to add water. I asked her if she knew a place where I could buy it and she told me no that it was pre-made specifically for insectivores as ordered by the hospital. It was made by mazuri and was low fat and low protein.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I'll check with my vet about this product! I wonder if leopard geckos would like it since they usually spit out earthworms, lol!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Both of these Mazuri Insectivore diets are made from plant products, so I'm not sure how they would be digested? One of them is in a pellet form, and the other a gel. I am waiting for an email reply from my vet.
http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5MK8-5MM3.pdf
http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5SV7.pdf

I also found this link to a discussion on the products: http://www.herpcenter.com/product-questions/31590-mazuri-insectivoire-diet.html

 

[gecko4245]

I'll check with my vet about this product! I wonder if leopard geckos would like it since they usually spit out earthworms, lol!

yes, maybe he will know and can get it. My leo did not seem to happy with the taste, lol Another problem was that I had to add more water than food. I can't remember the exact amount but it was really tiny, so I would end up spilling more than I would get him to lick. He did great with it and pooped normal. He started eating within a week thank go because I was tired of the watery dirt looking mess.