Golden Gate Geckos Slurry

[Dimidiata]

I have a question. Weve been talking about this slurry for use with malnurished and starved geckos. BUT what about geckos that are simply unable to use their jaw for whatever reason be it due to fracture or such? Could it be used for a healthy gecko? That would mean that they shouldnt have any problems with the fat and such as they arnt deprived correct?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Sam, I would think the slurry would be a good choice for a gecko that cannot eat due to a broken jaw, or even MBD and a soft jaw.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I found this interesting report on the nutrient values of various insects: http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

Basically, here is the breakdown of the difference between earthworms (1st number) and mealworms (2nd number):
Dry ingredients - 20.0/37.6
Protein - 62.2/52.7
Fat - 17.7/32.8
Ash - 5.0/3.2
Calories/gram - 4.65/6.49

So, earthworms have more protein and mealworms have more fat. It even shows the nutritional value of roaches, waxworms, and crickets... but not silkworms.

 

[gecko4245]

I found this interesting report on the nutrient values of various insects: http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

Basically, here is the breakdown of the difference between earthworms (1st number) and mealworms (2nd number):
Dry ingredients - 20.0/37.6
Protein - 62.2/52.7
Fat - 17.7/32.8
Ash - 5.0/3.2
Calories/gram - 4.65/6.49

So, earthworms have more protein and mealworms have more fat. It even shows the nutritional value of roaches, waxworms, and crickets... but not silkworms.

You know what's funny, I have seen so many diffrent insect charts I don't know which one to believe,lol They all say something slightly different.Then so many worms are called earthworms. Some people call nightcrawlers earthworms. Too confusing for me.

 

[Dimidiata]

I cant stress the above enough. Im sick of insect charts. They CANT make up their minds.

 

[gecko4245]

I cant stress the above enough. Im sick of insect charts. They CANT make up their minds.

lol It does not make sense in a way because it would depend on the diet the insect is fed. The only insects which the nutrition can't change is silkworms, phoenix worms and wax worms. I believe the roaches itself are high protein tho even without the gutload.

 

[Dimidiata]

IKR. I belive the charts need to list the BASIC nutrition of the animal on a empty stomache or on a basic food like potatoe. Its quite possible this is why the charts are all diffrent.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Did either of you actually READ that paper? I doubt it. It wasn't just a post on a feeder company's website... it was an actual scientific study. Of course, all the data would depend on what the inverts were fed as well, but at least it gives a comparison of the nutritive content of a lot of different insect feeders under the same controlled analysis and conditions. Data often varies from lab to lab, but from the same lab they would be more consistent. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ear, since I spent 26 years as a ChemE.

Sooooo... here is the email I sent my vet, who happens to be the President of the ARAV (Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians), and his response:

Hi Dr. H,

I am involved in an online discussion once again for my slurry recipe which I am adamant doesn't cure anything and is only to be used when a gecko is off food and being treated by a qualified veterinarian for a diagnosed condition. Some are claiming it is too high in protein and fat for a gecko that has been anorexic and possibly has hepatic lipidosis, and they should be on a low protein, low fat diet. Is this true? Also, there has been a recommendation for a low protein/fat powder made from earthworms that is mixed with water, and is manufactured by Mazuri. Apparently it is only available by veterinary prescription. Do you have any info on this product?

Thanks!
Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
925-755-3113
http://www.goldengategeckos.com

Marcia,
Really busy today. Will answer in detail sometime tomorrow.
Not true!
Pseudo-vets think they know herp medicine, yet never bring a pet in while ill, nor have tests done, biopsies, post-mortem exams.
Disposable pets.
No Mazzuri product made for herps from worms, nor recommended.
Only fertilizer and fish food.
Again, crap science.
Internet "doctors"!!

Ken

Ken Harkewicz, VMD
2011-2012 ARAV President
Exotic Animal Veterinarian and Consultant
2126 Haste Street
Berkeley, CA 94704
510.848.5041
Harkherp, Inc.

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Here is today's response from Dr. Harkewicz. I realize he is not the Messiah and may have different thoughts and methods from some other exotics vets, but as the President of the ARAV and consultant on the VIN, I would say that he is qualified to answer the basic questions I/we have as it pertains to the discussion on this thread... even if it is colorful at times.

Marcia,
The only way to diagnosis hepatic lipidosis is via a biopsy of the liver. Doubt any tests are done. People assume it's hepatic lipidosis because they extrapolate from obese cats. You cannot do that with reptiles.
Cats store fat in the liver. Geckos do not (they do in the tail). So, the liver is not infiltrated by fat that caused the lipidosis once anorexia sets in the same way it is for mammals.
With mammals feed a high fiber, low fat, easily digestible protein diet during rehab. With reptiles it's unknown.
Your slurry is excellent for geckos IMO.
Most cases of anorexia in reptiles are due to bacterial gastro-enteritis, adenovirus, parasites, or cyptospordiosis. Sometimes stress. Unless testing for these, you cannot tell or offer crap advice like so many other breeders do. Unlike you, most never want to spend the money to treat/diagnoses. Will bemoan the loss of a $600 gecko, yet not spend a few $100 to see what's in their colonies. They know who they are! Sad.

Ken

Ken Harkewicz, VMD

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Dimidiata]

Wow, straight forward and to the point...i like him!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Wow, straight forward and to the point...i like him!

LOL! I like him too...

 

[Dimidiata]

I cant wait to be a vet, vet assist training is still fun though(and possibly my favorite class).

 

[gecko4245]

LOL! I like him too...

That's good he is straight up. Honestly all the vets I have seen say the same thing so I am not easily convinced of any of them. No offense but even the ones with the long history of experience have been wrong at times. I doubt them all to a certain extent. At least most the people close to me do take their reps to the vet often if not I will scream at them:main_yes: My sister's defintely died from obesity and had was full of fat because a good necropsy was done. I don't take my leos to small private practices anymore, instead I pay alot more and take them to a university pet hospital were they are many exotics vets in the hospital and they don't get paid per patient. They spend a whole lot more time. I have seen a big diffrence in the care and knowledge.
I am not judging him, I am just speaking in general.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I don't take my leos to small private practices anymore, instead I pay alot more and take them to a university pet hospital were they are many exotics vets in the hospital and they don't get paid per patient. They spend a whole lot more time.

Agreed! Dr. H was a Professor at UC Davis Veterinary School's Exotics Dept. and Teaching Hospital (that's how I met him), and now is in part-time consulting and private practice at a large Veterinary Specialties Clinic in Berkeley. He and I have disagreed on a lot of topics, but he has performed delicate surgeries on a few of my geckos with great success... which is a miracle in itself because he's a big man with fingers like sausages!

 

[gecko4245]

Agreed! Dr. H was a Professor at UC Davis Veterinary School's Exotics Dept. and Teaching Hospital (that's how I met him), and now is in part-time consulting and private practice at a large Veterinary Specialties Clinic in Berkeley. He and I have disagreed on a lot of topics, but he has performed delicate surgeries on a few of my geckos with great success... which is a miracle in itself because he's a big man with fingers like sausages!

:main_laugh: Love a man with big hands.
I went to this vet once that knocked my leos tooth out accidently because he was so ruff I lost my cool, told him off and almost got kicked out of the office, lol

 

[gecko4245]

I did not see this part before, I have a short attention span lol

"No Mazzuri product made for herps from worms"

That cup she gave me was without a doubt was earthworms or nightcrawlers. I give you my word. This is how I know. During that time I had another type of reptile and someone I know must of won a contest or something because I was sent a box of crickets and nightcrawlers. I never found out who send them, but anyway your going to think I'm crazy but I was not sure if they were safe so I wanted to sterilize the worm and I put them in the oven and of course it was a disaster and it smelled so bad. But it had the exact same smell and it was just like the worms inside like soil. Yummy story

As a matter of fact most of the vets I have been to were members of ARAV and their knowledge was:main_thumbsdown: Including The vet that knocked a tooth out my gecko. I don't want to say his name, but it was not your vet and he was suppose to have over 25 years exotic experience and all he knew was to prescribe Baytril, lol
So that tells you what that is ARAV is worth to me. I think we know more about reptiles from keeping them for years than half those vets do.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I think we know more about reptiles from keeping them for years than half those vets do.

Yes, we DO know more about keeping them than most vets do, but they know more about disease and treatment than we do. Vets and keepers can learn a LOT from each other if we can simply put the health and well-being of our animals first, before our egos and bank accounts. You may not have a lot of faith in the ARAV, but can you think of another veterinary organization that is focused on the betterment of reptile medicine? On a world-wide basis?

That cup she gave me was without a doubt was earthworms or nightcrawlers. I give you my word.

You distinctly said it was a powder that you mixed with water. So, was it a Mazzuri powder derived from earthworms, or was it a cup of live bait?

 

[gecko4245]

Yes, we DO know more about keeping them than most vets do, but they know more about disease and treatment than we do. Vets and keepers can learn a LOT from each other if we can simply put the health and well-being of our animals first, before our egos and bank accounts. You may not have a lot of faith in the ARAV, but can you think of another veterinary organization that is focused on the betterment of reptile medicine? On a world-wide basis?
You distinctly said it was a powder that you mixed with water. So, was it a Mazzuri powder derived from earthworms, or was it a cup of live bait?

I used the wrong word to describe it. It was like dry dirt. It was nasty like what the inside of the worms looked like when they splattered in the oven sheet, lolSorry it's been years since I have had any sick geckos so my memory is blurred. I will look thru the old discharge receipts hopefully I still have tomorrow and I will let you know if it's written on any.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Ooohhh Kaaayyy.

 

[madrv]

I used the wrong word to describe it. It was like dry dirt. It was nasty like what the inside of the worms looked like when they splattered in the oven sheet, lolSorry it's been years since I have had any sick geckos so my memory is blurred. I will look thru the old discharge receipts hopefully I still have tomorrow and I will let you know if it's written on any.

You must be from the eastcoast. I had a gig in new York at a herp clinic that made their own earthworm cocktails for their inpatient reps.