Golden Gate Geckos Slurry

[gecko4245]

You must be from the eastcoast. I had a gig in new York at a herp clinic that made their own earthworm cocktails for their inpatient reps.

Yea, I am. So maybe they made it themselves and I was thinking of Mazuri from another visit which she actually did give me mazuri. That explains then because I knew that one cup was earthworms.

 

[doublet74]

Just sitting back enjoying the info being discussed and presented here. HOWEVER, Not to stir the pot but someone just started a thread in G.D. titled "Why not the slurry" that seems to be criticizing the sources stated here. I mean unless I'm reading it wrong.

 

[gecko4245]

Just sitting back enjoying the info being discussed and presented here. HOWEVER, Not to stir the pot but someone just started a thread in G.D. titled "Why not the slurry" that seems to be criticizing the sources stated here. I mean unless I'm reading it wrong.

yeah, I just seen it after I posted here:stunned:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Not to stir the pot but someone just started a thread in G.D. titled "Why not the slurry" that seems to be criticizing the sources stated here. I mean unless I'm reading it wrong.

I'm not sure why that was posted as a new thread, and not here on this existing thread. Maybe the mods can combine them? I responded to each of the points made in the OP on that thread:http://geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=693027&postcount=13

 

[Jenn_tigercat]

I was going to stay out of this but I am grateful for this slurry when my female Cameron showed up with coccidia. When she was on the antibiotic she stopped eating. This slurry helped to keep her going until the antibiotic treatment was done and she started eating again. It makes me wish I had something for my snake who had Crypto.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well it appears that the following GF users who have been quite active in the GGG Slurry discussions are the same person! By bye!
http://geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=693055&postcount=25

Now, can we PLEASE have a thoughtful and informative discussion about the slurry by people who have actually used it? Or can provide some legitimate, documented evidence why it should not be used?

 

[Dimidiata]

The Usless post here should be deleted imo, I personaly take peoples experinces seriously, you have had TONS of people thankyou and mentioned it saved their leos lives, i would use this in a heartbeat no questions asked.

 

[artes]

To answer your original question...

I had a gecko that was shipped to me. When she got here she appeared to be doing well, but she refused to eat. No big deal I thought, she had a long trip. However, after a week she still wasn't eating. She also shed twice in this week period. I took her to the vet, and they said it was just stress and she would start eating in a day or two. She didn't. I started feeding her the slurry formula (only I skipped the mealworms because I didn't have nearly enough here and couldn't get nearly enough shipped in time - I wasn't waiting two more days) twice a day. Three days later, she was gobbling up regular bugs like a fat kid gobbles up hamburgers.

So, yay for slurry, boo for trouble makers!

 

[Dog Shrink]

thank you Marcia, and your vet, for the wonerful info you've been able to share in this thread. From going back and reading, and please correct me if I missed or misread something, but the issue of refeeding syndrom... there was no conclusive study/evidence/proof/practical experience that emaciated leos can suffer from refeeding syndrom?

Thankfully I've never had a need to incorporate slurry into my leos diet, but know plenty of people who have had emaciation issues at some point or another, and have recommended your slurry on many occasions with success for those owners, but was always hesitant because of the refeeding syndrom issue

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

there was no conclusive study/evidence/proof/practical experience that emaciated leos can suffer from refeeding syndrome?

So far, I have not seen any legitimate evidence that this is an issue with leopard geckos, although I have solicited documented evidence without any response. The reason I wanted to put up this poll was to find out how many people have used it, along with their results. Unfortunately, there is one person here on GF who has registered under several different user names who has made claims against using the GGG slurry without any basis, or ever having used it. This person also voted negatively on the poll under all of those user names. It's unfortunate that we must wade through so much crap to glean any useful information.

 

[verogold]

I found this thread very intriguing. I see lots of problems in general.
To begin the causes of a convalescing reptile are too broad and must be treated accordingly.
Based on all the info I will be providing it will only be useful in a situation where the reptile has stopped eating due to parasites or certain infections.

Where does it all begin for the most part in a healthy reptile? Diet
In captivity a reptile will expend a lot less energy than in the wild so will have lower energy needs.
A factor to hepatic lipidosis(Fatty liver disease) is obesity or overcondiontioned reptile.
Hepatic lipidosis- excessive accumulation of triglycerides in hepatocytes and is triggered by a period of startvation. When the reptile goes off food the liver is unable to utilize the rapid influx of fat.
Predisposing factor once again OBESITY.The prognosis will depend on treatment and will vary depening on the severity. Involves antibiotics, a steroid, fluids per IV and a precise amount of lean high quality protein diet.

The slurry cannot be used in this particular situation for 2 reasons. Fluid amount and daily caloric % is not calculated nor balanced.

Prevention- feed low fat insects and do not overfeed, allow space for exercise and activity by adding things like branches so they can climb, make the reptile hunt for their food.

If problems are caught in time a chance of recovery for several illnesses does exist.


Let's use Kidney disease as another conditon. There are many causes but I will use the main one's as example.

Dehydration, Diet too high in protein, Hypervitaminos D. In most cases by the time the reptile is taken to the vet, the kidneys are rarely functioning.
Most people fail to see the early signs which involve excessive thirst, polydipsia ect. If caught early, part of the treatment involves giving fluids per IV 20-25ml/kg body weight a day.
This is why you cannot use the slurry under this condition. Again it requires specified amounts of fluids, ect a day. Without a proper amount of fluids the body will not be able to function, fatal hypovolemic shock sets in, organs will begin shutting down
Balance is extremely important and why a product like Oxbow Carnivore Care is commonly used. It is diluted by the vet so that a specific amount is administered safely.


There are way to many conditions to cover and so it's important owners do not play doctor and make sure to take them to the vet when a problem occurs. Do not start feeding a slurry or anything without knowing the actual cause. Again every situation needs to be treated accordingly.
I think that what that person or people had a problem with was that the slurry was passed around without the warning that it should only be used under simple situations like the reptile stopped eating due to parasites or certain infections.

No I am not involved with these people or person. I just like to analyze things from both sides and thought I'd give my input

 

[KelliH]

No I am not involved with these people or person. I just like to analyze things from both sides and thought I'd give my input

Oh OF COURSE you aren't! :main_laugh:
What on earth would give us the idea that you were?!?

 

[verogold]

Oh OF COURSE you aren't! :main_laugh:
What on earth would give us the idea that you were?!?

After reading so many posts and banned profiles, I was skeptical of posting

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Where does it all begin for the most part in a healthy reptile? Diet

I disagree. It begins with proper husbandry and environmental conditions. If these requirements are not met, there is no point in feeding the gecko properly because it most likely won't won't eat!

The slurry cannot be used in this particular situation for 2 reasons. Fluid amount and daily caloric % is not calculated nor balanced.

Very little clinically proven information is available regarding the 'proper' diet, nutrition, and supplemental requirements of leopard geckos. In their natural habitat there are no crickets, mealworms, superworms, silkworms, or dubia roaches. They are fairly opportunistic eaters, feeding primarily on grasshoppers, locust, and other invertebrates and occasional small newborn rodents and other smaller reptiles.

This is why you cannot use the slurry under this condition. Again it requires specified amounts of fluids, ect a day. Without a proper amount of fluids the body will not be able to function, fatal hypovolemic shock sets in, organs will begin shutting down. Balance is extremely important and why a product like Oxbow Carnivore Care is commonly used. It is diluted by the vet so that a specific amount is administered safely.

Balance of what? Eggs? Poultry meal? Fish products? Since when do leopard geckos eat ANY of these by-products? Oxbow Carnivore Care is developed for FERRETS, and is very high in Vitamin A and D, which are both fat soluble vitamins which can contribute to liver and kidney failure. Ferrets are warm-blooded, carnivorous mammals. Leopard geckos are cold-blooded, insectivorous reptiles (in case you have forgotten).

Here are the ingredients for Oxbow Carnivore Care:

Carnivore Care by Oxbow is a nutritionally complete diet for assisted feeding of sick ferrets. Whether an animal’s lack of appetite is the result of illness or surgery nutrition plays an important role in recovery. Carnivore Care is a highly digestible protein making it a ideal choice when providing supplemental nutrition.2.5 oz of dry formula to be mixed with warm water. Feeding Directions: Mix 3 Tablespoons of dry powder to 1.5 Tablespoons warm water. Various methods of administration may require more water to be added. Feed 24 cc of mixed product divided between 3-4 feedings per day. Refrigerate any unused portion after mixing and use within 24 hours. Best results are achieved when small amounts are mixed at the time of each feeding. Ingredients: Dried Whole Egg Poultry Meal Meat Meal (porcine) Menhaden Fish Oil Calcium Carbonate Tricalcium Phosphorus Choline Chloride Vitamin E Supplement (tocopherol) Niacin Supplement Riboflavin Biotin Vitamin A Acetate L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate Calcium Chloride Magnesium Sulfate Copper Sulfate Mineral Oil Thiamine Hydrochloride Vitamin B12 Supplement Folic Acid Vitamin D3 Supplement Calcium Iodate Pyrodoxine Hydrochloride Natural FlavoringsFor more info on protein and fat content, see this link: http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/vets/products

"verogold", I have asked you SEVERAL times under your other various user names (now banned) exactly what your qualifications are to make the above statements, and have never received an answer. In every single one of your 'anti-slurry' rhetoricals you seem to be unable to get it through your head that the GGG Slurry is to be used short-term in conjunction with veterinary treatment for a known ailment.

There are way to many conditions to cover and so it's important owners do not play doctor and make sure to take them to the vet when a problem occurs.

Nobody is playing doctor here except YOU! This is getting pretty old, and I simply will not give any credence to comments made by someone who has only been on this forum for less than a week with no background or actual experience rehabilitating leopard geckos, and cannot answer simple questions about your qualifications. STOP STALKING AND TROLLING.

 

[Dimidiata]

If the slurry is that bad then why does it work? How many people have come to this thread and testified that it saved their leos life, i have seen new keepers in threads that found the slurry info online and claimed to use it and saved their leos in doing so. NOT one single person has come here and stated that the slurry, A. didnt work or B. killed or harmed their animal in anyway. I would like to see your vet license, GGG isnt a owner playing doctor, they are highly experinced keeper/breeder that has developed a revolutional way of keeping our geckos alive when they are in terrible condition. A slurry that has been reccomended by many top breeders, vets and websites. So i would like to know where you think your coming from challenging all these people when you cannot offer any form of evidence that you know what your talking about. The trolling is ridiculos, get over it.

 

[M_surinamensis]

The slurry cannot be used in this particular situation for 2 reasons. Fluid amount and daily caloric % is not calculated nor balanced.
...

Balance is extremely important and why a product like Oxbow Carnivore Care is commonly used. It is diluted by the vet so that a specific amount is administered safely.
...

There are way to many conditions to cover and so it's important owners do not play doctor and make sure to take them to the vet when a problem occurs. Do not start feeding a slurry or anything without knowing the actual cause. Again every situation needs to be treated accordingly.

You make me sigh heavily, trollperson. Mostly because you're very nearly on the edge of something correct but that you keep then drawing a completely incorrect conclusion as a consequence of it. That and the trolling.

The part that you're correct about is the way individual animals should be looked at as though they are unique data sets. Each scenario will be, in some subtle ways, different from others and consequentially will benefit from individualized conditions, treatment, regimens and care tailored to account for the exact variables present in each case. The more specifics are known, the more adjustments for the needs of the individual are made, the better the resulting chances of fixing problems and maintaining healthy stability.

The parts that you are incorrect about are the idea that this is something veterinarians can and will do... both as an absolute and on a routine basis... and that Marcia's slurry mix has no place in the process when they do the best they can with the available information.

A genuinely exact course of treatment is, at present, an impossibility while dealing with a living animal. Knowing exactly what is wrong and exactly how to address it would require an equally exact knowledge of the animal that's afflicted. To a cellular, and even molecular level. Information that simply cannot be obtained from a living animal. Information that is prohibitively expensive (and by this I mean requires the kinds of toys that only live in universities and pharmaceutical companies, not "but the vet bill is fifty dollars more than I expected!") to obtain in any case, making it simply unavailable to all but an extremely small minority of veterinarians (few of whom are really practicing and available to the public).

So a veterinarian's specific treatment is, at best, going to be composed of minor modifications to a generic plan. The ones that take the time and are capable are exceptional individuals who deserve all the credit in the world, but when it comes right down to it there are a limited number of diagnostic tools available to them and they end up playing the odds more often than they are possessed of genuinely proven and verifiable certainties.

Consequentially, the use of a formula which is ideally formulated for the baseline nutritional requirements of the species in question (leopard geckos) is going to be a more valuable tool for those veterinarians and keepers to use than a similar, but not species-specific mix using any of the carnivore diets that are often used by vets who are unaware of Marcia's recipe.

The criticism of variability that can be levied against Marcia's mix (shouldn't be, but I suppose it's sort of factual, even if it's a profoundly stupid kind of factual) with comments about not knowing the exact nutritional value of each mealworm that goes in, or the water chemistry of the liquid that is added to it must also be applied to alternatives like Mazuri and Oxbow because one cannot really, truly know the exacting nutritional levels of every ingredient used to form them, either.

So, shy of having someone invent non-invasive cellular dissection techniques that would allow for a precise analysis of the needs of individual animals, Marcia's mix, in conjunction with oversight by a qualified and educated individual capable of educated analysis of the situation, is the absolute, no questions, hands down, very best option available to pet owners and their veterinarians. When circumstances make it appropriate to consider its use to begin with, of course.

Also, you should really paraphrase things if you're going to plagiarize from google search results, so a suspicious bastard like me doesn't wander along and see which web pages you stole them from, while mangling the context. For those following along and playing using their home versions of the game, not a single one of the hijacked quotes came from material specific to leopard geckos.

No I am not involved with these people or person.

Yeah... that's totally plausible. You just registered as soon as the last one was banned and immediately went into the same threads where they had been participating, to pick up their exact arguments, with identical methods and phrasing. What an astounding coincidence.

 

[verogold]

I disagree. It begins with proper husbandry and environmental conditions. If these requirements are not met, there is no point in feeding the gecko properly because it most likely won't won't eat! Very little clinically proven information is available regarding the 'proper' diet, nutrition, and supplemental requirements of leopard geckos. In their natural habitat there are no crickets, mealworms, superworms, silkworms, or dubia roaches. They are fairly opportunistic eaters, feeding primarily on grasshoppers, locust, and other invertebrates and occasional small newborn rodents and other smaller reptiles.Balance of what? Eggs? Poultry meal? Fish products? Since when do leopard geckos eat ANY of these by-products? Oxbow Carnivore Care is developed for FERRETS, and is very high in Vitamin A and D, which are both fat soluble vitamins which can contribute to liver and kidney failure. Ferrets are warm-blooded, carnivorous mammals. Leopard geckos are cold-blooded, insectivorous reptiles (in case you have forgotten).

Here are the ingredients for Oxbow Carnivore Care:

Carnivore Care by Oxbow is a nutritionally complete diet for assisted feeding of sick ferrets. Whether an animal’s lack of appetite is the result of illness or surgery nutrition plays an important role in recovery. Carnivore Care is a highly digestible protein making it a ideal choice when providing supplemental nutrition.2.5 oz of dry formula to be mixed with warm water. Feeding Directions: Mix 3 Tablespoons of dry powder to 1.5 Tablespoons warm water. Various methods of administration may require more water to be added. Feed 24 cc of mixed product divided between 3-4 feedings per day. Refrigerate any unused portion after mixing and use within 24 hours. Best results are achieved when small amounts are mixed at the time of each feeding. Ingredients: Dried Whole Egg Poultry Meal Meat Meal (porcine) Menhaden Fish Oil Calcium Carbonate Tricalcium Phosphorus Choline Chloride Vitamin E Supplement (tocopherol) Niacin Supplement Riboflavin Biotin Vitamin A Acetate L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate Calcium Chloride Magnesium Sulfate Copper Sulfate Mineral Oil Thiamine Hydrochloride Vitamin B12 Supplement Folic Acid Vitamin D3 Supplement Calcium Iodate Pyrodoxine Hydrochloride Natural FlavoringsFor more info on protein and fat content, see this link: http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/vets/products

"verogold", I have asked you SEVERAL times under your other various user names (now banned) exactly what your qualifications are to make the above statements, and have never received an answer. In every single one of your 'anti-slurry' rhetoricals you seem to be unable to get it through your head that the GGG Slurry is to be used short-term in conjunction with veterinary treatment for a known ailment.

Nobody is playing doctor here except YOU! This is getting pretty old, and I simply will not give any credence to comments made by someone who has only been on this forum for less than a week with no background or actual experience rehabilitating leopard geckos, and cannot answer simple questions about your qualifications. STOP STALKING AND TROLLING.

I am shocked. I mentioned I was not associated with this person or people. I simply ran across the post and thought I post a comment like anyone else. Never did I speak negatively in regards to the slurry. I was slimply trying to advise owners to seek veteranian help before administering anything.
I am sure I am not the only curious person or the only one to do research on their reptiles. I thought the purpose of the post was for anyone to contribute information. Can I please have the chnace to read all these post please?

 

[verogold]

I never accused YOU of playing doctor. I was refering to the owners who prefer trying anything at home without finding a diagnosis.
I am not against anything. I would simply ask the vet if I needed to use the slurry and if he appoved I will be all for it.
I am totally overwhelmed with all these comments. I just have to come back to reality.

 

[verogold]

When I wrote this "Where does it all begin for the most part in a healthy reptile? Diet" I was refering to fatty liver disease.

My friend moved to Oregan about 3 years ago. She has a bosc monitor which was taken to a Dr. Mark Burgess. After extensive blood work and ultrasound ect. The vet diagnosed him with fatty liver disease. He was treated with antibiotics, a steroid and IV fluids at first and then put on a lean protein diet. She would call me constantly and he was doing fine. After a year I lost contact with her. A lot of information came from that vet and passed on to me. I also read a lot and many use of my reptiles veteranian.

Hills AD and Ensure have been used for many years, so why would I make a big deal out of it? My main point was that dehydration has to be addressed before loading a reptile up with protein. I am sure most people are aware of this.
Yes, of course I will be using the same phrasing if I was looking at both sides of the argument. How will you ever recieve other veteranians information if you don't give anyone a chance without accusing them of being one person.
I guess my only suggestion would be that eveyone gets input from their veteranians so that all information is considered.

After a minute of thought I came to the conclusion that the reason people believe that it's all one person is because we all follow the same beliefs. Well, the information is coming from the veteranians, not ourselves. At least in my part. Here is an example. Here is my friends vet that I mentioned above. He is in Oregon and he is very careful with fatty diets and is against oversupplementing.

http://www.swanimalhospital.net/html/infosheets/leopardgeckoinfo.html

I am located in a different state and my vet follows the same thought. The people you were speaking about, someone said was in PA. That is 3 different states and 3 different VETS that think alike.

 

[KelliH]

When I wrote this "Where does it all begin for the most part in a healthy reptile? Diet" I was refering to fatty liver disease.

My friend moved to Oregan about 3 years ago. She has a bosc monitor which was taken to a Dr. Mark Burgess. After extensive blood work and ultrasound ect. The vet diagnosed him with fatty liver disease. He was treated with antibiotics, a steroid and IV fluids at first and then put on a lean protein diet. She would call me constantly and he was doing fine. After a year I lost contact with her. A lot of information came from that vet and passed on to me. I also read a lot and many use of my reptiles veteranian.

Hills AD and Ensure have been used for many years, so why would I make a big deal out of it? My main point was that dehydration has to be addressed before loading a reptile up with protein. I am sure most people are aware of this.
Yes, of course I will be using the same phrasing if I was looking at both sides of the argument. How will you ever recieve other veteranians information if you don't give anyone a chance without accusing them of being one person.
I guess my only suggestion would be that eveyone gets input from their veteranians so that all information is considered.

After a minute of thought I came to the conclusion that the reason people believe that it's all one person is because we all follow the same beliefs. Well, the information is coming from the veteranians, not ourselves. At least in my part. Here is an example. Here is my friends vet that I mentioned above. He is in Oregon and he is very careful with fatty diets and is against oversupplementing.

http://www.swanimalhospital.net/html/infosheets/leopardgeckoinfo.html

I am located in a different state and my vet follows the same thought. The people you were speaking about, someone said was in PA. That is 3 different states and 3 different VETS that think alike.

Do you mind telling me what state you are posting from? If you prefer to keep it off the main boards just pm me.