I have a question - not meant to offend.

[Krow]

You know.. every thread i see you on your having a go at someone. you take things too far man.

I agree.

 

[Daedric1]

Measuring the happiness of an animal that is incapable of the emotion to begin with by the standards of a species that is as radically different as it is possible to be is just going to lead you to inaccurate conclusions.

I am sure geckos are capable of enjoying "situation A" over "situation B." Basically what you are saying is that they have no preferences whatsoever as long as their needs are met. If this was true, they wouldn't prefer one rock to sit on over another that are in the same heat gradient. If it didn't have preferences, it would sit in random spots as long as it feels comfortable in temperature.

Moreover, a gecko would not shake its tail while hunting for crickets or roaches differently that it does for mealworms if this were true. I would guess this means it enjoys hunting rather than eating helpless prey. And, surely it has taste preferences, or it wouldn't get addicted to waxworms.

You can argue that geckos don't have as advanced brains as humans - I think we already realize this. Of course they don't, but to say they are computers that sees each food item, hide, or basking spot equally the same as long as it suits their needs seems to be a far cry.

Educated and experienced keepers do not choose racks because they are cheaper. They choose racks because they are better for the animal in many cases, for many species (not all, of course).

Name me one breeder or any business that doesn't try to optimize their operating costs or space. They may choose racks because they think they are better for the animal in part, but I don't think you can ignore economics.

 

[gmaier19]

i prefer the rack system set up over traditional aquariums for leos. when i made my rack however, i chose to use containers that are quite large (approx 17" x 12") just so i would feel better about having them in a "tub". i dont judge others for having smaller containers, i just like giving my geckos some more room to crawl around.

my main motivation for making a rack was because my leos would bite each other. not all females get along! now theyre happily house singly and its easier than ever to take care of their needs!

 

[Tony C]

Name me one breeder or any business that doesn't try to optimize their operating costs or space. They may choose racks because they think they are better for the animal in part, but I don't think you can ignore economics.

Who says that is a bad thing? If the animals needs are being met, what difference does it make how much was spent to make it happen? I am moving my leopard geckos from a rack into large naturalistic vivaria soon, but that is to suit my own preference. I am scaling way back on leos and I prefer the look of a vivarium to a rack so I made that decision for myself. That doesn't mean that I am going to hold a negative view of people who use racks because I know the animals thrive in them. The gecko couldn't care less if it is hiding under a deli cup, an overpriced fake rock cave from the pet store, or a chunk of cork bark. Any attempt to discern such a preference is anthropomorphism.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

I'm fairly new to keeping a leo (and enjoying it greatly!) but I have a question about keeping leos in these rack systems. For many on here, a big focus is on creating the best habitat for our little reptile friends which I think is great but then I read about, and see pictures of, the rack systems where the leos are kept in small plastic boxes, row upon row. The breeder I got our gecko from had this rack set-up too. I can't help but think this can't be very enjoyable for the geckos...don't they need room to move around, hunt and play? I don't mean to offend anyone by this question but maybe there is something I'm missing.

Small boxes, 6qt, are what is good for hatchlings. They are so tiny when first out of the egg that they need the security of a smaller enclosed space, and to be able to find food and water. Usually 2 eggs at a time are laid a few weeks apart for several months. It takes a lot of boxes to house all the babies. When they're big enough they are moved to larger boxes, again, appropriate for their size. That also takes a lot of boxes. It keeps them healthier and happier to have their own space while they await their new homes. Many are sold during this period once their health is confirmed and they are at a size the breeder is comfortable with letting them go. Rack systems are able to house many animals and deliver the appropriate heat required. If a person has just a few geckos it's no big deal to set them up in tanks. You have to be real careful with community tanking tho, problems can occur suddenly. Many breeders also have other reptiles and it is not feasible to have everything in aquariums. Both leopard geckos and many snakes do very well in racks. Some reptiles have very specific caging requirements and could never survive in a rack, like chameleons. It is simply personal preference based on the needs of the animal and their keeper.

Between people pointing the finger and giving the finger, this thread has gotten way out of hand. I feel bad for the original poster, who was just looking for information, not a debate.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I could probably just repost the quote you quoted because it is what each individual answer will boil down to, but I'll give it a shot the long way.

I am sure geckos are capable of enjoying "situation A" over "situation B." Basically what you are saying is that they have no preferences whatsoever as long as their needs are met. If this was true, they wouldn't prefer one rock to sit on over another that are in the same heat gradient. If it didn't have preferences, it would sit in random spots as long as it feels comfortable in temperature.

First of all, if all other factors were equal, they would do so randomly.

The problem is one of observational fault. You have observed an animal's behavior, you have picked what you suspect is a likely cause and you have decided that the evidence is sufficient to be regarded as proof without examining alternatives or broadening the number of factors that you measure. In other words- I get why you think what you think, because I know what you have seen but you are ultimately incorrect because your focus was too limited.

There are, very very broadly, a couple different kinds of memory and a couple different ways that organisms can arrive at a behavior when presented with a stimulus.

Declarative memory covers conscious decisions, where an organism weighs the available information and arrives at a conclusion based on their observations and their ability to predict abstracts or to extrapolate from existing information. When you throw a frisbee on your roof and you look at the situation and decide you can't get it down without a ladder, that internal monologue is declarative thought. Geckos literally do not have the physical structure in their brain required for this.

Procedural memory and decisions could also be called instincts, responses that are ingrained and automatic, which do not require any conscious thought at all. Stimulus is perceived, neurons fire off, response happens. If you touch a stove that you didn't realize was still hot, when you jerk your hand back away from its surface, that was your procedural response kicking in. Every single behavior a gecko ever exhibits is a result of procedural responses.

The mistake you are making is the assumption that procedural (instinctive) automatically means simple- that any action which seems complex is automatically a result of declarative responses. This assumption is incorrect, the responses displayed can be as complex as the stimulus that is prompting them. To use the example you raised, temperature is not the only factor that is dictating the instinctive behaviors of the gecko or causing it to seemingly show a preference. Numerous factors are involved, based on all the available senses and the relative strength of the responsive procedural pathway. Light intensity, the proximity to a secure hiding area, temperature, humidity, camouflage coloration, air flow, barometric pressure, the distance of available line of sight (outgoing and incoming), the density or surface textures involved with the two rocks... a nearly infinite number of factors that the animal takes in as sensory information that influences the resulting behavior.

You seem to assume that repetition of behavior indicates declarative preference, that the animal has decided it likes something. It does not, it just means that the available stimulus triggers those same predetermined responses because it has not varied enough to provoke a new behavior. And vise versa, new observed behaviors just mean that the stimulus was changed enough to push them into a different response.

Moreover, a gecko would not shake its tail while hunting for crickets or roaches differently that it does for mealworms if this were true. I would guess this means it enjoys hunting rather than eating helpless prey. And, surely it has taste preferences, or it wouldn't get addicted to waxworms.

Once again, different stimulus can mean a different behavior. A cricket and a roach move in a way that is- similar, not identical obviously but they're a similar shape and color and when not jumping, they skitter around in pretty similar patterns. So the gecko responds to them the way geckos respond to all those factors. A mealworm is significantly different and so is the resulting behavior.

You're assuming that geckos shake their tails for the same reason dogs do. That is faulty. You're also faulty in assuming that they enjoy hunting on some level- it's not a conscious action, provided with the appropriate stimulus (a prey item while hungry and without mitigating factors which would retard feeding behaviors) they eat. Food -> eat, different food sometimes prompts a slightly different feeding behavior, as is appropriate to the prey in question. It is not fun because, once again, they haven't got the required brain structures for the concept on the level we define it.

Taste preferences are an interesting biological adaptation to the availability of wild food sources, taste for any species is often quite strong for food items which are beneficial in their available amounts and rare. Soft bodied, fatty insect larvae in small amounts are extremely beneficial for a wild gecko, it is a large caloric intake in a single small prey item. Taste preferences aren't voluntary choices, they are an instinctive dictate that an animal should consume those things when possible because it is rarely possible. Same reason we like sugar and fat ourselves actually and the same reason overeating and bad dietary habits are so common. Our instincts have not caught up with the rapid changes that happened regarding the availability of such items- and neither have the instincts of a captive gecko when waxworms are freely and commonly available.

You can argue that geckos don't have as advanced brains as humans - I think we already realize this. Of course they don't, but to say they are computers that sees each food item, hide, or basking spot equally the same as long as it suits their needs seems to be a far cry.

Anthropomorphism and observational error again I am afraid. Sorry.

Out of curiosity, because this phenomena is very common among pet owners, do you feel that you're less capable of appreciating a gecko when you understand its limitations? Do you need to be able to feel mutual empathy with it in order to like it?

Name me one breeder or any business that doesn't try to optimize their operating costs or space. They may choose racks because they think they are better for the animal in part, but I don't think you can ignore economics.

When the cheaper option is simultaneously the better option, why would they ignore them?

Tony had mentioned something that I think is fairly important here- he prefers display enclosures and vivariums. So do I actually, they're more interesting for me to look at. He also indicated that his display enclosures are fairly elaborate- dense tank decor, lots of cover of appropriate sizes. He goes out of his way to meet the instinctive needs of the animal (small, tight dark spaces for security) while making an extra effort to simultaneously appeal to his own sense of aesthetics.

The average rack has benefits that give it an edge over the average glass tank. Most glass enclosures that I see photos of have negative qualities that are not addressed which make them less than ideal for leopard geckos. Bright lights and a lack of significant cover and visual breaks being the big ones.

The exceptional rack and the exceptional display enclosure close the gap. In the hands of someone who understands those instinctive behaviors of the leopard gecko, who has taken the time to identify the microhabitat and the associated instincts, the extra effort can be made to eliminate the common problems associated with the tanks.

Most people never manage to have that understanding or to make the necessary changes though, which is why as a brief answer to a brief question like "Which is better, tanks or racks?" or in this case, questions about some aspects of racks generally results in the brief answer of "Racks are actually better." For most people- they are. The people who know enough to make a glass tank a good option don't need to ask the question to begin with. Answers come when the pupil no longer needs to ask the question. It is almost zen. Or could be if it weren't a frustrated and impatient cuss like me providing some knowledge.

 

[Jordan]

Name me one breeder or any business that doesn't try to optimize their operating costs or space. They may choose racks because they think they are better for the animal in part, but I don't think you can ignore economics.

i think your all reading this quote wrong, he's saying that business DO look for the cheaper option, he is saying that all businesses seek to optimize theyre costs. Yes they look to make the life good for the gecko but they ALSO look for the cheaper option. Thats why he says they dont ignore economics.
If we all had the space and money to have lots of lovely glass vivs filled with 3 or 4 geckos each then vwe would, but no we have to go for the cheaper option to optimize our costs as breeders, this is economics, its not ignored by breeders thats what he's saying. hell... this quote half agreed with you guys and you still had a go...

 

[Jordan]

Measuring the happiness of an animal that is incapable of the emotion to begin with by the standards of a species that is as radically different as it is possible to be is just going to lead you to inaccurate conclusions.
.

NOT CAPABLE OF EMOTION! LMAO! oh... then i wonder why they sit in hides, i wonder why they squawk when not handled nicely, i wonder why they try to riggle free sometimes, i wonder why hatchlings screech at you.... is that not because of FEAR... is fear not an emotion anymore?

hell how the heck do you know a gecko doesnt feel happiness?

you know if geckos could talk, they'd tell you stop trying to be a bloody know-it-all.

 

[M_surinamensis]

you know if geckos could talk, they'd tell you stop trying to be a bloody know-it-all.

I have prepared a rebuttal.

Yeah, that should about do it.

 

[Jordan]

I have prepared a rebuttal.

Yeah, that should about do it.

yup that pictures says it all, i may not be as powerful as you, but i sure am more liked. Good ol spiderman!
wow, thats actually pretty good, you didnt go off on one of your rambles trying your best to sound clever.

 

[slayer]

NOT CAPABLE OF EMOTION! LMAO! oh... then i wonder why they sit in hides, i wonder why they squawk when not handled nicely, i wonder why they try to riggle free sometimes, i wonder why hatchlings screech at you.... is that not because of FEAR... is fear not an emotion anymore?
hell how the heck do you know a gecko doesnt feel happiness?

................... Your confusing reactions to a stimuli for emotions.

The facts are reptiles do not possess a limbic system and therefore do not have the physical structures needed to possess emotions.

 

[Jordan]

i still think its fair to say geckos can get afraid.

 

[slayer]

With the absence of an amygdalae I dont see how that is physiologicaly possible.

 

[M_surinamensis]

With the absence of an amygdalae I dont see how that is physiologicaly possible.

I've just been down that road.

Good luck, you're dealing with a seventeen year old kid who has no comprehension of how little he actually knows that thinks his guesses have equal validity to your scientific knowledge and who doesn't actually understand the words you're going to need to use in order to explain it.

 

[Jordan]

I've just been down that road.

Good luck, you're dealing with a seventeen year old kid who has no comprehension of how little he actually knows that thinks his guesses have equal validity to your scientific knowledge and who doesn't actually understand the words you're going to need to use in order to explain it.

i go back to my old statement... your always having a go at someone and people agreed. jesus... cuz im 17, i dont know anything? now who sounds dumb, for all you know i could be a boy genious and know everything, with just the exception of geckos feelings. ... i think theres alot of people that think gecko's feel fear. im sorry if i havent studied gecko's brains.

 

[M_surinamensis]

for all you know i could be a boy genious and know everything

I am fairly confident that is not the case.

i think theres alot of people that think gecko's feel fear.

There are a lot of people who think a lot of things, thankfully right and wrong, factual and false aren't determined by a majority vote.

im sorry if i havent studied gecko's brains.

We'll see. If you are actually apologetic- which I doubt- then in the future you'll be less inclined to argue with people who have.

Do you know why I am not patient with more people? Why I am not a hand holding, coddling and encouraging kind of person? It is largely due to people like yourself- frustratingly ignorant about a subject, just knows absolutely nothing about the topic of discussion, completely uninformed... but still willing to ignore what they are being told and, worse yet, argues from that position, waving their ignorance around like a banner. It is amazing how much more patience I have when I am dealing with someone that actually pays attention and tries to understand.

 

[slayer]

i think theres alot of people that think gecko's feel fear. im sorry if i havent studied gecko's brains.

............... And thats the problem here. People are trying to use opinions to refute facts.

 

[Jordan]

There are a lot of people who think a lot of things, thankfully right and wrong, factual and false aren't determined by a majority vote.

i meant its an easy mistake.

Do you know why I am not patient with more people? Why I am not a hand holding, coddling and encouraging kind of person? It is largely due to people like yourself- frustratingly ignorant about a subject, just knows absolutely nothing about the topic of discussion, completely uninformed... but still willing to ignore what they are being told and, worse yet, argues from that position, waving their ignorance around like a banner. It is amazing how much more patience I have when I am dealing with someone that actually pays attention and tries to understand.

No, your not patient to people cuz your a jerk.
And im not ignorant about the subject, i tried to answer the question for the OP, you came across agressive.

And im not completely uninformed or know nothing, i just thought what the majority did as its very easy to belive what others think if ive not been taught otheriwse, which now i have and as much i hate to say it thank you for telling me im wrong. But your still RIDICULOUSLY aggressive and uptight.
My main argument is not that geckos feel feelings but that everywhere i see you on posts you are having a go at someone, and people agreed.

 

[Mel&Keith]

And on that note....this thread is now closed!