I still like Line Bred Snow’s the best.

[KelliH]

Those snows are awesome, Albey. What I cannot understand is how no other Supers have been produced by breeding some of the line breds together. Cody sent me 3 line bred females and I have produced Mack Super Snows from all three, by breeding them to a male Super Snow. I see what you are saying about there being a hidden gene, but I am still unsure. Cody's females are really nice snows, but they look very similar to some of the nicer Mack Snows I have hatched. I guess more breedings need to take place before we can truly figure out what is going on, but at this point my guess is that Cody's females are actually Mack Snows.

I did produce a Super Snow by breeding a male Mack Snow to a female "Gem" line Snow. I have no doubt that breeding Gem to Gem will also produce Supers, but I cannot test this as both of the female Gem snows I own were bred to a male Mack this year. Hopefully Jim or Paul Allen will be able to shed more light on this as their seasons progress.

 

[Albey]

Time will tell for sure. The Gem Snows that I (and others) have been working with also produced similar results when crossed with the Mack Snows...a SS baby. The chances are that they (the Gems) are indeed Macks, but again, it's strange that a "super form" didn't appear until they were crossed with the Macks. I'm still waiting on more eggs to hatch from Gem x Gem (which now appear the be Mack x Mack! lol) breedings, but so far, no SS. I would love to hatch a SS soon just to make some sense of all this in my head. Of course, the Gems/Macks do act the same as far as the whole co-dominance thing goes...unlike the line bred snows, right? So, it easier for me to say the Gems are Macks...the line bred snows though...???

Hi Paul,
I disagree that the Gem’s are Mack’s or the same as Mack’s. Correct me if I am wrong but I was of the understanding that breeding Line Bred Snow’s to Ray Hine Hypo’s created the Gem’s. They are similar to the Snow Carrot-tail cross that I was producing for a while but he used the original Ray Hine Hypo’s instead of just a light colored Carrot-tail like I was doing. If that is the case once again it is the Mack hidden gene that is working on the Line Bred Genes in the Gem’s that is creating Super Snow’s. Like you said, why has no one else created a Super Snow just breeding the Gem’s or the Line Bred’s? I have been breeding them for at least seven generations and not a one. It doesn’t compute.

I am going to go out on a limb here but I think the hidden gene has to do with the Tremper Albino influence in John Mack’s Snow’s. He told me that the original Super Snow was created in a group of Leopard Geckos that also produced Tremper Albinos and Patternless. That is why so many Tremper Albino and Patternless Mack Snow’s were created the very first year they became available. I think the same gene that creates the solid red eyes in the RAPTOR’S and such is responsible for the Solid black eyes in the Super Snow’s. I am not stating this as fact it is just an idea that I have, but it make a lot of sense to me. :main_thumbsup:

Well I have Geckos to feed.
Later,

 

[Jeanne]

The Line Bred Snows that Kelli used were all females, has anyone bred a Male Line Bred Snow to a Female SS and created SS's from that pairing? If so, I think next year, someone should breed the Female Line Bred Snows that Kelli has to the Male Line Bred Snow that made SS's (If there is one) to see what happens.

 

[Albey]

Those snows are awesome, Albey. What I cannot understand is how no other Supers have been produced by breeding some of the line breds together. Cody sent me 3 line bred females and I have produced Mack Super Snows from all three, by breeding them to a male Super Snow. I see what you are saying about there being a hidden gene, but I am still unsure. Cody's females are really nice snows, but they look very similar to some of the nicer Mack Snows I have hatched. I guess more breedings need to take place before we can truly figure out what is going on, but at this point my guess is that Cody's females are actually Mack Snows.

I did produce a Super Snow by breeding a male Mack Snow to a female "Gem" line Snow. I have no doubt that breeding Gem to Gem will also produce Supers, but I cannot test this as both of the female Gem snows I own were bred to a male Mack this year. Hopefully Jim or Paul Allen will be able to shed more light on this as their seasons progress.

Hi Kelli,
See my post to Paul a little bit above this post for what I think about it. I would like to hear what you think of what I wrote.

Now I really really need to go feed the Geckos. LOL

 

[DontShootMe]

I like the Super snows but like line bred snows better than co-doms snows

 

[nwheat]

Beautiful snows, Albey!!

 

[ExcessiveHerps]

Hi Paul,
I think the same gene that creates the solid red eyes in the RAPTOR’S and such is responsible for the Solid black eyes in the Super Snow’s. I am not stating this as fact it is just an idea that I have, but it make a lot of sense to me. :main_thumbsup:

Albey,
you do know that Alberto has bred RAPTOR x SS right? I have only see Mack snows from that pairing....

 

[Gregg M]

The Mack Super Snow’s with their uniform striping and pattern just seem to lack the character of the Line Bred.

I think that the uniform striping is nice but I feel that with some work they can, at the very least, be hypo'd out to add a bit more character....

I have to say that the line breds are awesome....

 

[LeosForLess]

I think that they are all falcioatus(or whatever) that were imported as normal leopard geckos, and John Mack just happened to make the mack snows, and some people took the imported "snows" (or imported falcioatus) and they thought and line bred them. So they are all just aliens.

 

[bro paul]

Albey,
I'm not sure of the origins of Jim's (Gem line) original breeders. I'll invite him to this thread and see if he can shed some light. I know he crossed his snows into the hines line hypo once he realized what he had, to produce hypo snows. But, the unique thing about his line was that they showed the same genetic abilities as the Macks (whether you want to call it co-dom or incomplete dom!). In other words, when you breed them to "anything", you get 50% black and white snows and 50% normals...no A, B, or C grade snows as with the line bred snows. So, many people felt they already were Macks for this reason. Now with Kelli's results...it almost closes the books on this one. If I can just hatch a Super Snow from my Gem x Gem...so far only two hatchlings and both are nice looking snows with normal eyes and very hypo bodies. Two more eggs are expected to hatch in a week or two.

 

[Albey]

Albey,
you do know that Alberto has bred RAPTOR x SS right? I have only see Mack snows from that pairing....

Hi Xavier,
That is a very good point but it doesn’t really change any thing. I am not saying that all of the Mack Super Snows carry the gene for Albinism; I am just saying that they some how carry the gene for solid color eyes. Same as Tremper Albinos (in this case a RAPTOR) do not carry the genes to produce Super Snow’s. The eye color is the recessive part of the equation and you need both parts of the gene to create them. The Super Snow has the gene to create Black eyes and the RAPTOR has the genes to create the red eyes, hence they cancel each other out.

 

[Jedi Master Bruce]

Beautiful snows, Albey! If someone could create a genetics spreadsheet to explain all the proposed theories in this thread my brain would stop hurting.

 

[ExcessiveHerps]

Hi Xavier,
That is a very good point but it doesn’t really change any thing. I am not saying that all of the Mack Super Snows carry the gene for Albinism; I am just saying that they some how carry the gene for solid color eyes. Same as Tremper Albinos (in this case a RAPTOR) do not carry the genes to produce Super Snow’s. The eye color is the recessive part of the equation and you need both parts of the gene to create them. The Super Snow has the gene to create Black eyes and the RAPTOR has the genes to create the red eyes, hence they cancel each other out.

I don't follow, if where thinking of simply the solid eye trait being recessive if one where to breed SS to Raptor shouldn't 100% of the offspring have solid eyes? This wasn't the case for Alberto's project, to me this would mean that where dealing with 2 different eye triat much like we have 3 strains of albino.

 

[ReptilianGems]

Just heard about this thread, so I thought I would put in my 2 cents worth. It is my humble opinion that probably most if not all snows being called line snows (and mine) probably are descended from A1 stock. Mine however, are not line bred. I figured out last year (right in the middle of mostly out breeding) that mine are Incomplete Dominant, and yes it is different than Co-Dominant. I haven’t done enough Gem to Gem breeding to be absolutely sure I can’t produce a “Superâ€, but I haven’t yet.
I agree fully with the conclusion that many people are reaching about the “other†snows out there being more attractive than the Macks. But I guess beauty as they say is in the eye of the beholder, so again, this is just my opinion. Since I figured out what was going on with mine genetically, I have given the Macks a lot of thought, even though I am far from an expert, having never owned one, lol. From everything I have read and heard, I believe the Macks are a poly genetic trait. Or in other words, there are more than one pair of genes involved in creating a Mack Super.
I have a theory about what is going on with the Mack X Gem cross producing Supers. I think that they are both inherited at the same locus on the chromosome. Or in other words, at that locus, there are 3 possible alleles. Normal, Mack, and Gem.
Normal + Mack = Incomplete Dominant relationship, with the Mack Dominating the normal, but not completely.
Normal + Gem = Incomplete Dominant relationship, with the Gem Dominating the normal, but not completely.
Mack + Gem = Dominant/Recessive relationship, with the Mack completely dominating the Gem.

Like I said, it is just a theory. Until there is a consensus on what is going on with the results of some of the crosses, it is really going to be fun working with snows, and seeing what happens next. I would also like to thank Kelli, Albey, Paul, and others for sharing their results with the rest of us. I don’t know about everybody else, but I don’t think we have scratched the surface yet on what can be done with the snows. I am starting to ramble lol, so I had better close.

 

[Jeanne]

Like I've said before, this is a great time to be breeding Leopard Geckos. I will be breeding my Male Mack to a Female Gem/Mack/Whatever I gopt from Paul. I can't wait to see the results.

Thank You for coming on here and responding!

 

[LeosForLess]

Are the line breds temp sexable unlike the macks?

 

[Albey]

Are the line breds temp sexable unlike the macks?

Yes:main_thumbsup:

 

[TheHiddenGecko]

If the Mack's aren't temp sexable and the line breds are, then wouldn't that prove that they are two different species? Also, wouldn't that prove that the line breds are not the same as Mack's. I'm a little confused. :dizzy2:

 

[bro paul]

... I'm a little confused. :dizzy2:

Welcome to the club

 

[Cryptly]

I'm a little confused. :dizzy2:

Me too. . .:main_huh: